Fossil Challenge for Evolutionists

HitchSlap

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There are quite a few you might be interested in.
Do you like C.S. Lewis? Read Mere Christianity. It's the best explanation of Christianity I've ever read.
Yep. M.C. 2-3x
Also, The great divorce, screwtape letters, the four loves, grief observed, the problem of pain, surprised by joy, the abolition of man, CoN 6-7x, and the space trilogy (only once though - found it rather boring). Still have most of these books too. Used to be one of my favorite authors.

Or, a book by a journalist that set out to prove the resurrection was fake and ended up being a believer.
Yeah, I find Strobel to be atrocious - read all his books too. He's just one big helping of incredulity who decided he'd better find reasons to believe because his wife became a Christian.

Read Who Moved the Stone by Frank Morison.
Never heard of this book. Is it more than 'just so' and incredulity?

Maybe it'll make a believer out of you too!
Doubt it.
Then you can still be a scientist, but also have your answers in the meantime...
:blush:
Well, that's just it, facts don't care about my feelings.
 
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Subduction Zone

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A teacher doesn't think he's God or the Christ. He just teaches and would, back then, have been called a Rabbi.

Stories did not "grow". The Apostles themselves went on missionary journeys and preached the teachings of Jesus. This happened right after His death a resurrection and ascension.

Illiterate? You say Paul was illiterate? Take my word for it...he wasn't. Some of the Apostles were, but it doesn't take intelligence to believe in God,,,it just takes a word from Him and our acceptance of it.

John's gospel is an eyewitness account.
Look what he says:

John 1:1-5
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was in the beginning with God.
3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


And look what John, the youngest Apostle, says in his 1st letter:

1 John 1:1-5
1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


You're also not correct about the datings of the writings. Some were written about 40 AD,,,maybe 15 years or so after Jesus' ascension. And definitely while the Apostles were still alive. Paul wrote his last letters at about 65 AD.

Belief can come through investigation. A journalist was going to disprove the resurrection and ended up being a believer.
Frank Morison: Who Moved The Stone



Did I say the cause was mindless and purposeless??
AnyTHING that could have created our universe could not, be definition, be mindless.


I agree about some Christians. Some go overboard and try to save everybody. I leave that to the Holy Spirit --- I'm just a mere human and don't plan on saving your soul.

As to public schools...you want to go there? I'm willing. Public schools teach a lot that is wrong, and these teachings are ruining our society,,as are some other things. Just because one is Christian does NOT mean he's wrong about everything.


What do you mean? I said that something had to create all this. I'm Christian, remember. I believe God created everything -- I'm not ready to say what God is...I know that He's the first cause.


Were you one of the posters that does not believe in objectivity? But now you do?
Maybe all believers believe God works in their lives because it's true? Maybe God IS an objective method for us? What could be more objective than believing in the one that causes our heart to beat once every second?


I already said that using the phrase "invoking a god" is very ridiculing to a Christian. I know about the popular saying: If God did not exist, Man would have invented Him.

To believers, God is real. He's not some magic clown we invented.

And why should we say "we don't know"??
WE DO KNOW.

Quite a few errors. Paul may have been one of the earliest of writers but he was not an eyewitness. He never saw Jesus, he only had "visions". And some of his stories do not add up. The earliest gospel was not written until about the year 70 CE.


And no, John was not an eyewitness account. All the Gospels were anonymous and the only one that possibly was written by the named author was Luke, and he admitted not to being an eyewitness, nor did he even claim to have talked to witnesses. John was written about 90 CE at the earliest. By your standards Spiderman is historical.
But God DID create everything!
I know that isn't sinking into your head.
We understand what causes lightening...no problem.
Back when men DID NOT know, they said God did it.
And they were right! God caused all the laws to be in place that will allow lightening to happen. Why are there laws in this universe? If there weren't scientists could not prove ANYTHING. What makes math work? Evolution?

The problem is that you do not have reliable evidence for that claim. And you still do not "know". Knowledge is demonstrable. You need to be able to support your claims with more than "I just know it". That is only belief.

Evolution isn't the problem...
The problem goes way beyond evolution. It goes all the way back to the VERY BEGINNING. Whenever or however that was.

All we can say is that we do not know about the "VERY BEGINNING". There may not have been one. All we can say about that is "we don't know yet".
 
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Subduction Zone

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There are quite a few you might be interested in.
Do you like C.S. Lewis? Read Mere Christianity. It's the best explanation of Christianity I've ever read.

Or, a book by a journalist that set out to prove the resurrection was fake and ended up being a believer.
Read Who Moved the Stone by Frank Morison.
Maybe it'll make a believer out of you too!
Then you can still be a scientist, but also have your answers in the meantime...
:blush:


Those apologists approached the problem backwards. One does not have to "prove it wrong". Until something is supported with reliable evidence that proper attitude is one of disbelief.

If I said: "I saw Bigfoot last night, prove me wrong." You should be able to understand why that is an incorrect approach.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yep. M.C. 2-3x
Also, The great divorce, screwtape letters, the four loves, grief observed, the problem of pain, surprised by joy, the abolition of man, CoN 6-7x, and the space trilogy (only once though - found it rather boring). Still have most of these books too. Used to be one of my favorite authors.


Yeah, I find Strobel to be atrocious - read all his books too. He's just one big helping of incredulity who decided he'd better find reasons to believe because his wife became a Christian.


Never heard of this book. Is it more than 'just so' and incredulity?


Doubt it.

Well, that's just it, facts don't care about my feelings.
Screwtape Letters is an excellent example of how satan works. But you don't believe in satan, do you? Of course not....but why not?

What do you mean by incredulity?
In the sense of: "Is it more than just so AND incredulity".

Get Who Moved the Stone in the paperback version...it's cheap and I think you're a fast reader and I think you'll find it interesting. Think of the title WHO MOVED THE STONE. It's about whether or not the resurrection is reasonable.

One must always ask themselves the question: Why do I NOT believe in God...or...Why DO I believe in God.

The answer is always very personal.

I guess a big question is: Is there life after death?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Quite a few errors. Paul may have been one of the earliest of writers but he was not an eyewitness. He never saw Jesus, he only had "visions". And some of his stories do not add up. The earliest gospel was not written until about the year 70 CE.


And no, John was not an eyewitness account. All the Gospels were anonymous and the only one that possibly was written by the named author was Luke, and he admitted not to being an eyewitness, nor did he even claim to have talked to witnesses. John was written about 90 CE at the earliest. By your standards Spiderman is historical.


The problem is that you do not have reliable evidence for that claim. And you still do not "know". Knowledge is demonstrable. You need to be able to support your claims with more than "I just know it". That is only belief.



All we can say is that we do not know about the "VERY BEGINNING". There may not have been one. All we can say about that is "we don't know yet".
I NEVER said "I JUST KNOW IT".
I've said more than once that my faith is based on reason.

I don't know where you're getting your information from....but I'm not debating this with you.
John's gospel, for instance, shows no evidence of Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD which means it would have had to be written earlier.

It was customary to use names of teachers at that time,,,for instance, you're correct in stating that Mathew was not written by Mathew but by a pupil or follower of his.

The bible is not a history book, which is what many think. It's the story of a man. One can accept it or not.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Those apologists approached the problem backwards. One does not have to "prove it wrong". Until something is supported with reliable evidence that proper attitude is one of disbelief.

If I said: "I saw Bigfoot last night, prove me wrong." You should be able to understand why that is an incorrect approach.
I'm giving you books that could prove it right.
If Morison set out to prove something wrong...
and then he realized he couldn't and started to wonder WHY...it's not the same as starting out backwards. It's just how it worked out.

Anyway, could you prove that Kennedy was not shot in Chicago?
 
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HitchSlap

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Screwtape Letters is an excellent example of how satan works. But you don't believe in satan, do you? Of course not....but why not?
There is no evidence a satan exists. Again, what can be explained by the mundane is explanation enough.
What do you mean by incredulity?
In the case of Strobel, searching for evidence that supports your assertion, ignoring all evidence to the contrary, then feigning astonishment that it couldn't be any other way than what your assertion was.
Get Who Moved the Stone in the paperback version...it's cheap and I think you're a fast reader and I think you'll find it interesting. Think of the title WHO MOVED THE STONE. It's about whether or not the resurrection is reasonable.
I'm familiar with all the arguments for the resurrection. I don't find them compelling. Again, there are more mundane explanations.
One must always ask themselves the question: Why do I NOT believe in God...or...Why DO I believe in God.
Unfortunately, many people don't examine their beliefs.
The answer is always very personal.
I guess a big question is: Is there life after death?
All available evidence would suggest no.
 
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GodsGrace101

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There is no evidence a satan exists. Again, what can be explained by the mundane is explanation enough.

In the case of Strobel, searching for evidence that supports your assertion, ignoring all evidence to the contrary, then feigning astonishment that it couldn't be any other way than what your assertion was.

I'm familiar with all the arguments for the resurrection. I don't find them compelling. Again, there are more mundane explanations.

Unfortunately, many people don't examine their beliefs.

All available evidence would suggest no.
I believe there is.
And that's all I'll say to that.

Just for fun:
If you know all the reasons for the argument for resurrection and you don't accept any of them,,,could you tell me why YOU, personally, think that the Apostles all hid out of fear when Jesus was killed, and a few days later came out of hiding with a powerful witness and no fear at all.

Thanks.
 
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HitchSlap

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I believe there is.
And that's all I'll say to that.

Just for fun:
If you know all the reasons for the argument for resurrection and you don't accept any of them,,,could you tell me why YOU, personally, think that the Apostles all hid out of fear when Jesus was killed, and a few days later came out of hiding with a powerful witness and no fear at all.

Thanks.
I don't believe the gospels are literal historical fact. I have reason to believe they are largely mythical and legendary. I view your question as if I were to ask you why a Jedi knight would turn to the dark side.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I don't believe the gospels are literal historical fact. I have reason to believe they are largely mythical and legendary. I view your question as if I were to ask you why a Jedi knight would turn to the dark side.
LOL
If I'm willing to consider science and discuss it and not thing of it as something from Star Wars...why can't you simply tell me what might have caused that change in the Apostles?

It's not the same.
The Apostles were REAL persons.
A Jedi Knight is not real...
 
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GodsGrace101

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I don't believe the gospels are literal historical fact. I have reason to believe they are largely mythical and legendary. I view your question as if I were to ask you why a Jedi knight would turn to the dark side.
P.S. I said they are not literal, historical fact.
They're just trying to portray the story of Jesus. It plainly says that not everything could have been written down -- it would have taken volumes.

But that doesn't mean incidents were not true.
Like, for instance, the change in the Apostles. No reason to lie about this...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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As to normal people being a god....how many people to you know that claim to be God? I don't know any.
As it happens, an old university friend of mine who had a schizophrenic/bipolar breakdown many years ago, confided to me at a friends birthday party about three years ago, that he was 'the saviour' when I asked him what he meant, he said, "You know, like Jesus". He thought he was on some kind of secret mission... I presumed he'd been missing his meds. Sadly, he's since had a stroke and is not at all well. Ho hum.

Jesus, as far as I can tell, was either a liar, a lunatic or He was the Messiah, at the very least: the Christ.
They called him all those things. As Shakespeare said, "What's in a name?"

We each have to make up our own mind and we won't be convinced by anyone else.
That's ambiguous; if you make up your own mind about what someone else says and change your convictions as a result, then both are possible. On the other hand, it could be taken as saying that nothing anyone says or does could change your mind, which would be a sad state to be in.

It's really easy for me. Spirit is spirit.
It's tempting - 'magic is magic', 'nonsense is nonsense', and, yes, it is really easy; but it's tautologically empty, meaningless. "Brexit means Brexit..." :doh:

The spirit within us is not visible or weighable (new word), maybe it has weight; there have been some experiments but who cares.
There's no evidence of such a thing - nor, given what we know of biology and physics, can there be. And I care - because I like to know whether I'm discussing something I have some reason to believe is real, or whether I'm discussing imaginative flights of fancy.

IF there was a previous universe, space/time, whatever --- we're still faced with the same problem: Where did THAT come from?
As to something coming out of nothing, I've repeated so many times what I know about this that I just can't keep repeating it. I'll just say this AGAIN:
Scientists thought the universe ALWAYS existed.
NO BEGINNING.
Then we got the BB theory...which seems to be correct.
NOW they have the problem of HOW it got started.
Well, not exactly. I've already explained how that's not necessarily the case. If you're going to simply ignore it, then I'm wasting my time.

Call it what you will.
The FIRST CAUSE is GOD.
Special pleading is a fallacy.

I rather resent God being called magic...but atheists have no, or little, respect for what Christians believe.
I'm not calling God magic, I'm asking how God is in any way a better explanation than magic. It's a very simple question, but as usual, I seem to be getting a defensive, evasive response.

As for respect, I respect people's rights, including the right to believe whatever they like, but I don't see how respect is due to the beliefs themselves. Why should I respect beliefs I think are absurd or ridiculous? Do you respect the beliefs of Scientology?

WHY do scientists care at all what Christians believe?
Many are Christian. You'd have to ask the ones that aren't - I suspect most of them don't care unless/until it affects their lives in some way.
Philosophy is one way, theology is another way. We're all looking for the truth.
When you say things like "I just think it's easier to believe that God created everything...", "It's really easy for me. Spirit is spirit.", and "there have been some experiments but who cares", the claim that you're looking for truth rings rather hollow.

But I can say that whatever did all this IS our of the constraints you speak of. Time itself didn't exist...so it had to be something that created not only matter, but time...so it had to be something OUTSIDE of matter and time. If I make a watch, I'm not PART of that watch.
That's not really how it works away from the familiar physics of the everyday. Time, space, and causality are thought to be emergent from a more fundamental physical state. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to explain such ideas in familiar terms, just as it's not always possible to explain quantum mechanics in familiar terms. Nature has no obligation to us in that respect.

The justification is when you start to see God working in your own life. It's when you begin hearing Him speak to your heart --- and what He tells you turns out to be true. All Christians have had this experience - because they're OPEN to it.
Sounds like confirmation bias to me - but what makes you think the hypothetical 'force' that's outside of space and time, that you feel created the universe, is the origin of the voice in your head?

I used to get that response quite a lot as a youngster, "You're not getting God reception? It's probably user error - you're not doing it right; you have to be open to God". 'Open' usually meant having faith without evidence - believe first, then the voice will come. Like being told that if you really believe in Santa, he will bring you presents.

I don't know much...but I hear it answers more question than any current theory. It would solve some problems that cannot be solved right now.
What questions does it answer, and what problems would it solve?

If you ask what, you're going to give me work to do...just trust that I've heard this or read it.
I'm a sci-fi freak besides being Christian, so anything can sound reasonable to me. What does not sound reasonable is that all we see came from NOTHING! So there's dark matter, and space is full of stuff --- that means NOTHING... Where did THAT come from?
I was a sci-fi freak at one time - it's what got me interested in real science. I too don't think it's reasonable that anything came from nothing, whether it's universes or gods, and I've already spent some time explaining why.

I understand what you're saying...but what's
infinite divisibility?
It's being able to divide something into smaller pieces ad-infinitum. Even the Ancient Greeks realised this would be problematic.

Yeah! Dontcha love it?
And what created THEM???!
OK...

Why would it have to be utterly different from their own? What about our video games...they're very much like our world..just less dimensions...who knows how many dimensions are really in existence...we used to think there were only 3...
A universe built on different principles would necessarily be different. Our video games are digitally quantised, but are only very crudely and superficially similar to our world; as simulations, they have the same number of dimensions.

... that mathematician I had linked wasn't liked by anyone here. Math, Chemistry, every form of science is helpful in finding the truth.
If you want to find the truth, you have to be painstaking, thorough, and prepared to change your mind according to the evidence.

If you want to make up your own mind and you won't be convinced by anyone else (as you say), to get close to the truth you have to know the subject in detail and depth, and that's not easy. "I just think it's easier to believe that God created everything...", "It's really easy for me. Spirit is spirit.", and "there have been some experiments but who cares" isn't going to cut it.
 
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HitchSlap

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LOL
If I'm willing to consider science and discuss it and not thing of it as something from Star Wars...why can't you simply tell me what might have caused that change in the Apostles?
Star Wars is a fictional story, containing fictional characters, acting out fictional plots, from a screenplay, written by a human.

It's not the same.
I'm not as convinced as you are.
The Apostles were REAL persons.
Maybe. Maybe not.

Beowulf is a real story. Did that mean Beowulf existed?
A Jedi Knight is not real...
Are you sure...

Jediism - Wikipedia

If you're familiar with the 'principle of explosion,' then you'd know that; from falsity, anything follows.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Smart people believe all kinds of weird things. I suggest you read Shermer's book to understand why.

Why People Believe Weird Things - Wikipedia

Of all people, it's easiest to fool ourselves.
Richard Feynman had two apposite quotes:

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned"
 
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HitchSlap

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Richard Feynman had two apposite quotes:

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned"
Love Feynman. I have a book of his essays laying around somewhere. I should dig that up!
 
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GodsGrace101

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Star Wars is a fictional story, containing fictional characters, acting out fictional plots, from a screenplay, written by a human.


I'm not as convinced as you are.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Beowulf is a real story. Did that mean Beowulf existed?

Are you sure...

Jediism - Wikipedia

If you're familiar with the 'principle of explosion,' then you'd know that; from falsity, anything follows.
Was King Arthur real?
Thanks for the Wikipedia article.
If I EVER start doubting the Apostles,,,,I'll see about this Jedism thingy.

I think I'll get back to theology...
where I know what I'm talking about.
 
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GodsGrace101

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As it happens, an old university friend of mine who had a schizophrenic/bipolar breakdown many years ago, confided to me at a friends birthday party about three years ago, that he was 'the saviour' when I asked him what he meant, he said, "You know, like Jesus". He thought he was on some kind of secret mission... I presumed he'd been missing his meds. Sadly, he's since had a stroke and is not at all well. Ho hum.

They called him all those things. As Shakespeare said, "What's in a name?"

That's ambiguous; if you make up your own mind about what someone else says and change your convictions as a result, then both are possible. On the other hand, it could be taken as saying that nothing anyone says or does could change your mind, which would be a sad state to be in.

It's tempting - 'magic is magic', 'nonsense is nonsense', and, yes, it is really easy; but it's tautologically empty, meaningless. "Brexit means Brexit..." :doh:

There's no evidence of such a thing - nor, given what we know of biology and physics, can there be. And I care - because I like to know whether I'm discussing something I have some reason to believe is real, or whether I'm discussing imaginative flights of fancy.

Well, not exactly. I've already explained how that's not necessarily the case. If you're going to simply ignore it, then I'm wasting my time.

Special pleading is a fallacy.

I'm not calling God magic, I'm asking how God is in any way a better explanation than magic. It's a very simple question, but as usual, I seem to be getting a defensive, evasive response.

As for respect, I respect people's rights, including the right to believe whatever they like, but I don't see how respect is due to the beliefs themselves. Why should I respect beliefs I think are absurd or ridiculous? Do you respect the beliefs of Scientology?

Many are Christian. You'd have to ask the ones that aren't - I suspect most of them don't care unless/until it affects their lives in some way.
When you say things like "I just think it's easier to believe that God created everything...", "It's really easy for me. Spirit is spirit.", and "there have been some experiments but who cares", the claim that you're looking for truth rings rather hollow.

That's not really how it works away from the familiar physics of the everyday. Time, space, and causality are thought to be emergent from a more fundamental physical state. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to explain such ideas in familiar terms, just as it's not always possible to explain quantum mechanics in familiar terms. Nature has no obligation to us in that respect.

Sounds like confirmation bias to me - but what makes you think the hypothetical 'force' that's outside of space and time, that you feel created the universe, is the origin of the voice in your head?

I used to get that response quite a lot as a youngster, "You're not getting God reception? It's probably user error - you're not doing it right; you have to be open to God". 'Open' usually meant having faith without evidence - believe first, then the voice will come. Like being told that if you really believe in Santa, he will bring you presents.

What questions does it answer, and what problems would it solve?

I was a sci-fi freak at one time - it's what got me interested in real science. I too don't think it's reasonable that anything came from nothing, whether it's universes or gods, and I've already spent some time explaining why.

It's being able to divide something into smaller pieces ad-infinitum. Even the Ancient Greeks realised this would be problematic.

OK...

A universe built on different principles would necessarily be different. Our video games are digitally quantised, but are only very crudely and superficially similar to our world; as simulations, they have the same number of dimensions.

If you want to find the truth, you have to be painstaking, thorough, and prepared to change your mind according to the evidence.

If you want to make up your own mind and you won't be convinced by anyone else (as you say), to get close to the truth you have to know the subject in detail and depth, and that's not easy. "I just think it's easier to believe that God created everything...", "It's really easy for me. Spirit is spirit.", and "there have been some experiments but who cares" isn't going to cut it.
What can I say FB?
I do believe I have found the truth and am no longer seeking.

And now...
Back to theology....
It's been a blast, but I'm not here to convert anyone.
 
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HitchSlap

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Was King Arthur real?
If all it takes for someone to exist is the fact there are tales written about them, then yes.
Thanks for the Wikipedia article.
If I EVER start doubting the Apostles,,,,I'll see about this Jedism thingy.

I think you missed my point. The fact religions exist, in no way is evidence for their claims. In fact, I'm willing to bet you feel the same way about every other non-Christian religion as I do.

I think I'll get back to theology...
where I know what I'm talking about.
Sounds good.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I NEVER said "I JUST KNOW IT".
I've said more than once that my faith is based on reason.

I don't know where you're getting your information from....but I'm not debating this with you.
John's gospel, for instance, shows no evidence of Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD which means it would have had to be written earlier.

It was customary to use names of teachers at that time,,,for instance, you're correct in stating that Mathew was not written by Mathew but by a pupil or follower of his.

The bible is not a history book, which is what many think. It's the story of a man. One can accept it or not.
I don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Modern scholars put John at 90 CE at the earliest:

Gospel of John - Wikipedia
The above is a more secular source, but this Christian source has the same dates:

When was the Gospel of John written?

And sorry for the lack of a copy and paste of quotes. Using my tablet and I am not as practiced on it as on my PC.


As to who wrote Matthew, we do not really know.
 
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