Flat earth beliefs are totally in error.

[Lost4words]

Peter tells us that scripture is not given of private interpretation: therefore I am not giving my interpretation of scripture. I am sharing what I am reading and expounding on it. And as for the corners of the earth and their ends read post #132 of this thread.

Expound. Yes, you explain what YOU believe said scripture means! Exactly! Your interpretation! Thank you!

#132 says nothing?

 

[MartyF]

Yes I did read the book...the first time I read it was around when I was seven...and it has been clear to me now as it has then that all the characters present in the story of Job spoke. Again you show more of your folly by actually believing that the whole point of Job's story was to show that they were wrong in every single point because their general premise was wrong about Job's condition. God reprimanded Job's three friends for not talking accurately about His nature, not about the nature of His creations. As for quoting things out of context, I would suggest you look at the beam in your own eye before trying to take the speck out of another's eye and then you'll see clearly.

I quoted the passage in context. You have refused to discuss this.

Your general premise is that because Job's friends are wrong then everything they say or have said is wrong. Therefore if we apply that same logic to any character in the Bible who did a single wrong then everything they say or have said is wrong as that would invalidate a majority of the Bible. That is your logic but, you can't seem to understand how wrong that is by your response.

You do realize that Job's friend was just one of your passages? Sorry, but I'm right and you're wrong. You're beating a dead horse over this one verse.

Thank you for showing the rest of the viewers on this thread how much of a hypocrite you are and how you take things out of context. This passage is one of Job's friends trying to make the point to Job that no matter how much he (Job) thinks he can hide from God because He dwells in thick darkness and clouds cover Him round, he cannot. Where did God respond here and say this is wrong? God gives His reason for why Job's three friends are wrong at the end of the story: and His reason is that Job's three friends were wrong that God only afflicts and punishes sinners. And God is right in saying this as God clearly found no fault with Job when Satan tried to accuse Job of only following God because of all the blessings given to Him so, God allowed Satan to test Job. God did this because He knew Job was faithful to Him and would endure any trials he faced.

I was the one who put in context and gave the verses surrounding it. You were the one that quoted it as a single verse all by itself.

You still believe in the words of Job's friends. This is sad. Very sad.

Except the passages I quoted are not using metaphorical language. The word metaphor literally means 'to transfer'. That being said the passages describing the "corners of the earth" or the "four corners of the earth" are not being used to liken the earth to anything with four corners. When God is clearly using metaphorical language He follows up by giving the interpretation to the prophet He is speaking to. The passages I quoted are stating things as a matter of fact with no need to explain what they are saying as they assume the reader understands.

"Usually, if the surrounding passage is filled with metaphors and poetic language, then the passage is also likely metaphorical. Prose is less likely to be metaphorical than poetry."
- MartyF

With this logic you turn the whole Word of God into a metaphor as it is surrounded with metaphor. And it sounds like you're confusing metaphor ('to transfer') with allegory ('speak of something else'). Because the way you have been reasoning is that when the Bible says that the earth has four corners or has ends that it doesn't really mean that...it's actually talking about something other than what it's actually saying.

Ever realize how closely related idiots are to idioms? Now it sounds like you are confused and don't know when to use metaphor, figure, allegory, or idiom. An idiom is literally 'to appropriate to oneself'. Therefore an idiom is a phrase or expression which can't be understood by the ordinary meanings of the words in it. An example of an idiom is "Get off my back" which means "Stop bothering me" or "You hit the nail on the head" which means "You got it right". In Revelation 20:8 the word used for corner is the Greek gonia {go-nee-ah} meaning, 'an angle', 'corner', 'secret place' which comes from gonu {gon-oo} meaning, 'the knee': and corner is a perfect translation for gonia as the idea given is like when one's knee(s) are bent at an angle it forms a corner. In Isaiah 11:12 the Hebrew word for corner is KaNaPH {kaw-nawf} which means 'wing', 'extremity': and the word corner is again a perfect translation of KaNaPH as the wing of a bird gives us the idea of it stretching out its wings to its tip (i.e. corner), hence the word also denotes extremity. The evidence is clear that the earth has corners and the writers are not using idioms, allegory, figures, or metaphors.

None of your ideas about metaphors and idioms are correct.

Educate yourself on idiom in the quote directly above this one. And once you have done that then Go reread my proofs in posts #62 and #132 of this thread.

I'm not going to "learn" made-up and distorted definitions. There is no point in talking to you about anything. This rabbit-hole is very sad.

 

[_Dave_]

Dear oh dear. The earth has ends? What are they like then? The 4 corners, what are they like?

That's a good point. If anybody has mapped out and given GPS coordinates for where the edge of the earth is, the four corners, or the ends I haven't heard about it. Surely with all of the exploring that has been done for several millennia somebody must have tripped over one of the corners or tottered almost over the edge.

YWU, Jack and others, do you have DPS coordinates I can look up on Google Earth? It would be fun to see where the corners are, or where one would drop off of the world at the edge.

 

[Lost4words]

They take 'corners of the earth' and 'ends of the earth' to mean literal 'ends'. To mean nothing beyond. A dropping off where there is nothing but space or a drop down into nothingness!

When, in reality, it actually means, the far flung lands of the earth.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Expound. Yes, you explain what YOU believe said scripture means! Exactly! Your interpretation! Thank you!

#132 says nothing?

I quoted the passage in context. You have refused to discuss this.



You do realize that Job's friend was just one of your passages? Sorry, but I'm right and you're wrong. You're beating a dead horse over this one verse.



I was the one who put in context and gave the verses surrounding it. You were the one that quoted it as a single verse all by itself.

You still believe in the words of Job's friends. This is sad. Very sad.





None of your ideas about metaphors and idioms are correct.



I'm not going to "learn" made-up and distorted definitions. There is no point in talking to you about anything. This rabbit-hole is very sad.

That's a good point. If anybody has mapped out and given GPS coordinates for where the edge of the earth is, the four corners, or the ends I haven't heard about it. Surely with all of the exploring that has been done for several millennia somebody must have tripped over one of the corners or tottered almost over the edge.

YWU, Jack and others, do you have DPS coordinates I can look up on Google Earth? It would be fun to see where the corners are, or where one would drop off of the world at the edge.

They take 'corners of the earth' and 'ends of the earth' to mean literal 'ends'. To mean nothing beyond. A dropping off where there is nothing but space or a drop down into nothingness!

When, in reality, it actually means, the far flung lands of the earth.

Well at least we know who the mockers and scorners are in this thread.

 

[_Dave_]

Well at least we know who the mockers and scorners are in this thread.

YWU, don't be too hasty to take umbrage. I've got time to kill today and, like I said in my initial post on this topic, I am actually fascinated by this whole thing.

I actually take flat earth theory very seriously, and am seriously trying to understand how its adherents think the way they do. I know they take it extremely seriously and have spent a great deal of time and money in trying to prove their belief. I respect that.

I just read an entire article published very recently at Forbes.com on a FE group getting ready to mount an expedition to the Antarctic to try to breach the ice wall that they believe defines the edge of the world and holds in the ocean's water.

That would at least answer my question about what are the coordinates of the edge of the world -- nobody knows because nobody has been there yet to map it. But, they are seriously going to give it a good try. That's all you had to say.

However, that leaves a problem that maybe you can answer for me. Every single model I've seen of the flat earth is in the shape of a circular disk. So, where are the four corners that you have put so much faith in as being spoken of in the Bible?

It seems to me that if you superimpose a square onto a round disk to get four corners in order to satisfy that particular question, then us "globbies" could do the same thing over a sphere. Yes?

And, if the "four corners of the earth" is as literal as you are extremely adamant about, then they must be actual locations with GPS coordinates. And certainly they must be in locations already explored by man and not be hindered by the "Antarctica" effect.

I hope you are satisfied that I was not mocking you with my questions. I sincerely want to know how you have figured this all out. It isn't enough to just declare, "the earth is flat," and leave it at that. Inquiring minds, like myself, want to know all about it.

Blessings,

Dave

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Expound. Yes, you explain what YOU believe said scripture means! Exactly! Your interpretation! Thank you!

Get an education on words brother so you won't be lost for words the rest of your life:
expound | Origin and meaning of expound by Online Etymology Dictionary (deals with explaining the sense)
interpretation | Search Online Etymology Dictionary (deals with translating)

#132 says nothing?

Yeah well it was deleted because MartyF was offended for being called a fool after I exposed his folly of quoting Job's story out of context. You can see my response to him in post #135 where what would've been post #132 is fully quoted.

I quoted the passage in context. You have refused to discuss this.

I have discussed plenty with you and showed how your logic led to quoting the passage out of context.

You do realize that Job's friend was just one of your passages? Sorry, but I'm right and you're wrong. You're beating a dead horse over this one verse.

No, that's not how this works. You don't call someone wrong because you can't successfully quote things in context and discern between idioms, figures, allegories, and metaphors.

I was the one who put in context and gave the verses surrounding it. You were the one that quoted it as a single verse all by itself.

No you again attempted to use your faulty general premise that because the general premise of Job's friends were wrong, therefore all they said before or after that are wrong. You're throwing out the baby with the bath water.

You still believe in the words of Job's friends. This is sad. Very sad.

Yes and with your logic since Moses committed murder then everything else he said--no matter if it is true--is wrong and should not be quoted.

None of your ideas about metaphors and idioms are correct. I'm not going to "learn" made-up and distorted definitions. There is no point in talking to you about anything. This rabbit-hole is very sad.

They are not my ideas. Educate yourself on words and learn to understand English before debating:
idiom | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
metaphor | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
figure | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
literal | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

That's a good point. If anybody has mapped out and given GPS coordinates for where the edge of the earth is, the four corners, or the ends I haven't heard about it. Surely with all of the exploring that has been done for several millennia somebody must have tripped over one of the corners or tottered almost over the edge.

YWU, Jack and others, do you have DPS coordinates I can look up on Google Earth? It would be fun to see where the corners are, or where one would drop off of the world at the edge.

If you read Psalms 103:10-12 you would know that no man nor thing can give you the exact GPS coordinates:

"He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

We see here that the the bounds of heavens, the earth, and that of the seas are unknowable. And we see that the distance between east to west is greater than the height between the heavens and the earth. It is so great and vast that David could not number it: therefore he used this imagery to let us know how far God has removed our sins from us and, how great His mercy is towards us for our sin.

They take 'corners of the earth' and 'ends of the earth' to mean literal 'ends'. To mean nothing beyond. A dropping off where there is nothing but space or a drop down into nothingness! When, in reality, it actually means, the far flung lands of the earth.

I don't know who else you have been talking to about the ends and corners of the earth other than me but, the Bible makes no claim about dropping off of the earth once you reach the bounds of the earth. Psalms 103:10-12 makes it clear that no one is able to reach the bounds of the heavens and the earth and the seas. Therefore your argument is meaningless.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

YWU, don't be too hasty to take umbrage. I've got time to kill today and, like I said in my initial post on this topic, I am actually fascinated by this whole thing.

I actually take flat earth theory very seriously, and am seriously trying to understand how its adherents think the way they do. I know they take it extremely seriously and have spent a great deal of time and money in trying to prove their belief. I respect that.

I just read an entire article published very recently at Forbes.com on a FE group getting ready to mount an expedition to the Antarctic to try to breach the ice wall that they believe defines the edge of the world and holds in the ocean's water.

That would at least answer my question about what are the coordinates of the edge of the world -- nobody knows because nobody has been there yet to map it. But, they are seriously going to give it a good try. That's all you had to say.

However, that leaves a problem that maybe you can answer for me. Every single model I've seen of the flat earth is in the shape of a circular disk. So, where are the four corners that you have put so much faith in as being spoken of in the Bible?

It seems to me that if you superimpose a square onto a round disk to get four corners in order to satisfy that particular question, then us "globbies" could do the same thing over a sphere. Yes?

And, if the "four corners of the earth" is as literal as you are extremely adamant about, then they must be actual locations with GPS coordinates. And certainly they must be in locations already explored by man and not be hindered by the "Antarctica" effect.

I hope you are satisfied that I was not mocking you with my questions. I sincerely want to know how you have figured this all out. It isn't enough to just declare, "the earth is flat," and leave it at that. Inquiring minds, like myself, want to know all about it.

Blessings,

Dave

Okay first off stop lumping me together with the rest of the people who believe in flat earth as if somehow my thoughts are dictated by some sort of group collective identity. Secondly you asked me off my individual reasons as to why I believe in a flat earth. I spent no money on proving flat earth as I soly have stuck to scripture as my authority. If I did not understand a word then I would use a dictionary and look up the etymology of the word and then compare it with what is written in the Hebrew and Greek to make sure that everything lines up.

As for the models of the flat earth which exist out there: I conform to none of them as the closest I have come to making sense of the shape of the world from scripture is this:

This would satisfy the square and circle descriptions in the Bible. That being said what exactly is the shape of the heavens above which are also described as circular? Well when one looks at the path of the luminaries in the sky we see that they make an arching motion: and this is only possible with a dome type structure being overhead. You could say that with the images I provided would be a top-down view of this dome sitting above the square earth.

As to your inquiries regarding the GPS coordinates please read Psalms 103:10-12 which states that the bounds of the heavens and the earth is so great that it is unsearchable; and that the width between east and west is greater than the height between the heavens and the earth.

Lastly a sphere is not the same as a circle as I have said many times over. A sphere is a three dimensional solid shape while a circle is a two dimensional plane shape. The sphere does not fit the circle/circuit descriptions given in Isaiah 40:22, Proverbs 8:27, and Job 22:14.

 

[_Dave_]

Okay first off stop lumping me together with the rest of the people who believe in flat earth as if somehow my thoughts are dictated by some sort of group collective identity. Secondly you asked me of my individual reasons as to why I believe in a flat earth. I spent no money on proving flat earth as I soley have stuck to scripture as my authority.

Fair enough. Thanks. I won't bother you with questions anymore.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Fair enough. Thanks. I won't bother you with questions anymore.

Oh what happened to your honest inquiries? You stop investigating because I don't conform to a group of people you presume I should belong to?

 

[ewq1938]

Also... Evolution is crushed if the earth is a flat plate with a solid dome.

Evolution would be untouched as the shape of the Earth is irrelevant. Scripture also doesn't say there is a solid dome anywhere either.

 

[ewq1938]

Peter tells us that scripture is not given of private interpretation: therefore I am not giving my interpretation of scripture.

He actually said, "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" which means no OT prophet made up their prophecies...that the prophecies came from God. It has nothing to do with people having private interpretations/understandings of what scripture means.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes many things "scientific" don't make sense. I still wonder how last year's solar eclipse in which the shadow of the sun moved from the West Coast the East Coast is possible given the supposed direction of the earth's rotation. Given the earth's rotation, the shadow should have instead moved from East to West. I'm not scientific-minded but I do know the scriptures never describe a spherical, moving earth.

Actually, all this conjecture over NASA trying to "splain" away the problem.... It's actually quite simple.

The moon travels across the sky slower than the sun. In fact it loses 50 minutes per day.

So. as the moon is poking along from east to west.. the sun comes along, from behind, from the east and overtakes it.

Thus, the first shadow of the moon, on the earth will be from the sun approaching from the east.. the shadow will fall on the west first...


The earths rotation has nothing to do with it. The sun and moon move across the sky... as if the earth is standing still.. whether you believe it is or isn't.. for all intents and purposes, from our viewpoint... we are motionless and the sun and moon are moving.

The shadow, then, logically moves from west to east....


The bigger problem is not the direction of the shadow... but it's size.

No object can cast a shadow that is smaller than itself when the entire light source is blocked by the object casting the shadow.

The diagrams presented on any site always show the sun many times bigger than the moon. Then depict a penumbra etc..

While the sun is, supposedly, many times bigger than the moon in direct comparison... from our view on earth.. they are the same size.

Thus, the entire sun is blocked and the moons shadow must be bigger than it's physical true size...

Thus.. the moon must be tiny because it's shadow was about 50 to 70 miles on the earth.

 

[JacksBratt]

Evolution would be untouched as the shape of the Earth is irrelevant. Scripture also doesn't say there is a solid dome anywhere either.

Explain to me the process of a flat earth with a solid dome, forming on it's own and then life forming and evolving on it?

A solid dome?

In particular, Seely has published two papers in the Westminster Theological Journal claiming that the Bible teaches that there is a solid dome above the earth. He announces near the very start of his 1991 article:


‘The basic historical fact that defines the meaning of raqiya‘—the Hebrew word in Genesis 1 which the King James Bible reads as ‘firmament,’ but many modern translations render ‘expanse’—‘is simply this: all peoples in the ancient world thought of the sky as solid.’ 2


Following this statement is an impressive and informative list of citations that goes on to prove just that point: from American Indians to the neighbors of the Hebrews in the ancient East; from ancient times until the time of the Renaissance, there were almost no recorded dissenters, leading Seely to the resolution, ‘When the original readers of Genesis 1 read the word raqiya‘ they thought of a solid sky.’2 Then, after an analysis of relevant Biblical texts, Seely concludes:


‘… (T)he language of Genesis 1 suggests solidity … and no usage of raqiya‘ anywhere states or even implies that it was not a solid object … The historical-grammatical meaning of raqiya‘ in Gen. 1:6-8 is very clearly a literally solid firmament. ’2

 

[ewq1938]

Again, the bible does not speak of a solid dome anywhere. It's man made "theology".

Explain to me the process of a flat earth with a solid dome, forming on it's own and then life forming and evolving on it?

A solid dome?

In particular, Seely has published two papers in the Westminster Theological Journal claiming that the Bible teaches that there is a solid dome above the earth. He announces near the very start of his 1991 article:


‘The basic historical fact that defines the meaning of raqiya‘—the Hebrew word in Genesis 1 which the King James Bible reads as ‘firmament,’ but many modern translations render ‘expanse’—‘is simply this: all peoples in the ancient world thought of the sky as solid.’ 2


Following this statement is an impressive and informative list of citations that goes on to prove just that point: from American Indians to the neighbors of the Hebrews in the ancient East; from ancient times until the time of the Renaissance, there were almost no recorded dissenters, leading Seely to the resolution, ‘When the original readers of Genesis 1 read the word raqiya‘ they thought of a solid sky.’2 Then, after an analysis of relevant Biblical texts, Seely concludes:


‘… (T)he language of Genesis 1 suggests solidity … and no usage of raqiya‘ anywhere states or even implies that it was not a solid object … The historical-grammatical meaning of raqiya‘ in Gen. 1:6-8 is very clearly a literally solid firmament. ’2

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

He actually said, "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" which means no OT prophet made up their prophecies...that the prophecies came from God. It has nothing to do with people having private interpretations/understandings of what scripture means.

The prophecies were written down in scripture just as the laws were: therefore that includes all scripture.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Again, the bible does not speak of a solid dome anywhere. It's man made "theology".

It does not speak of it directly but indirectly. For in the story of Noah we read of the windows of heaven being opened to let out the rain: this would help to explain why it rains in some places as opposed to all places. And this would align with Genesis 1:6-8 when God created the heavens to separate the waters from the waters: the only way the heavens could hold up the waters above is if it were solid. And when one observes the path of the luminaries you will see that they travel in an arching motion this is only possible under a dome. And when you look at the rainbow it forms the same arch as the luminaries.

 

[ewq1938]

The prophecies were written down in scripture just as the laws were: therefore that includes all scripture.

Sure but the verse is specifically addressing prophecies not anything else.

 

[ewq1938]

the only way the heavens could hold up the waters above is if it were solid.

The firmament is simply the atmosphere and it holds water. Nothing is solid up there plus we can see the stars and planets so this supposed see through solid dome is pure myth.

 

[Lost4words]

Get an education on words brother so you won't be lost for words the rest of your life:
expound | Origin and meaning of expound by Online Etymology Dictionary (deals with explaining the sense)
interpretation | Search Online Etymology Dictionary (deals with translating)


Yeah well it was deleted because MartyF was offended for being called a fool after I exposed his folly of quoting Job's story out of context. You can see my response to him in post #135 where what would've been post #132 is fully quoted.


I have discussed plenty with you and showed how your logic led to quoting the passage out of context.


No, that's not how this works. You don't call someone wrong because you can't successfully quote things in context and discern between idioms, figures, allegories, and metaphors.


No you again attempted to use your faulty general premise that because the general premise of Job's friends were wrong, therefore all they said before or after that are wrong. You're throwing out the baby with the bath water.


Yes and with your logic since Moses committed murder then everything else he said--no matter if it is true--is wrong and should not be quoted.


They are not my ideas. Educate yourself on words and learn to understand English before debating:
idiom | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
metaphor | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
figure | Search Online Etymology Dictionary
literal | Search Online Etymology Dictionary


If you read Psalms 103:10-12 you would know that no man nor thing can give you the exact GPS coordinates:

"He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

We see here that the the bounds of heavens, the earth, and that of the seas are unknowable. And we see that the distance between east to west is greater than the height between the heavens and the earth. It is so great and vast that David could not number it: therefore he used this imagery to let us know how far God has removed our sins from us and, how great His mercy is towards us for our sin.


I don't know who else you have been talking to about the ends and corners of the earth other than me but, the Bible makes no claim about dropping off of the earth once you reach the bounds of the earth. Psalms 103:10-12 makes it clear that no one is able to reach the bounds of the heavens and the earth and the seas. Therefore your argument is meaningless.

the definition of expound

expound [ik-spound] EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGIN SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR expound ON THESAURUS.COM verb (used with object) to set forth or state in detail:to expound theories. to explain; interpret.