If Jesus took the punishment for all sinners, why doesn't he go to Hell?

mmksparbud

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I'd imagine there's a difference between the first death and the second death.

After the first death---there will be a judgement and the final penalty. We all are resurrected from the first death. Then the sinners are destroyed in the lake of fire---there will be no more sin, no more tears, no more pain---there will be no more sinners. As long as someone is burning there is pain and tears and a sinner.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It says 2nd death--not second eternal life burning.
 
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mmksparbud

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Here's your scripture:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did Adam and Eve physically die after eating the fruit? No. They died spiritually. They were cut off from the garden of Eden and could no longer talk to God. Jesus has restored our LIFE and spiritual relationship with God. Those who have Christ have LIFE. He is the truth, the way and the LIFE.


Adam and Eve died within the day is as a 1000 years to God, Adam was over 900 --or in the age which is what the word beyom means in Gen 2 as opposed to the word yom in Gen. 1.

The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.

The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1

5 and~he~will~CALL.OUT(V) (וַיִּקְרָא / wai'yiq'ra) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) to~LIGHT (לָאוֹר / la'or) DAY (יוֹם / yom) and~to~DARKNESS (וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ / wê'la'hho'shekh) he~did~CALL.OUT(V) (קָרָא / qa'ra) NIGHT (לָיְלָה / lai'lah) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) EVENING (עֶרֶב / e'rev) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) MORNING (בֹקֶר / vo'qer) DAY (יוֹם / yom) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad)

RMT: and Elohiym called out to the light, day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, a day unit,

17 and~from~TREE (וּמֵעֵץ / u'mey'eyts) the~DISCERNMENT (הַדַּעַת / ha'da'at) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) and~DYSFUNCTIONAL (וָרָע / wa'ra) NOT (לֹא / lo) you(ms)~will~EAT(V) (תֹאכַל / to'khal) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) in~DAY (בְּיוֹם / bê'yom) you(ms)~>~EAT(V) (אֲכָלְךָ / a'khal'kha) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) >~DIE(V) (מוֹת / mot) you(ms)~will~DIE(V) (תָּמוּת / ta'mut)

RMT: but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,
The Torah: Genesis 2

Either way--it doesn't say one word about spiritual death.
 
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ewq1938

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God did not tell Adam and Eve if they ate of the tree they would die spiritually, it says they would die.

Actually no, it says they would die the same day and they didn't die physically that day so it was a spiritual death they died that day.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 
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Romans 8

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Adam and Eve died within the day is as a 1000 years to God, Adam was over 900 --or in the age which is what the word beyom means in Gen 2 as opposed to the word yom in Gen. 1.

The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.

The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1

5 and~he~will~CALL.OUT(V) (וַיִּקְרָא / wai'yiq'ra) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) to~LIGHT (לָאוֹר / la'or) DAY (יוֹם / yom) and~to~DARKNESS (וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ / wê'la'hho'shekh) he~did~CALL.OUT(V) (קָרָא / qa'ra) NIGHT (לָיְלָה / lai'lah) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) EVENING (עֶרֶב / e'rev) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) MORNING (בֹקֶר / vo'qer) DAY (יוֹם / yom) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad)

RMT: and Elohiym called out to the light, day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, a day unit,

17 and~from~TREE (וּמֵעֵץ / u'mey'eyts) the~DISCERNMENT (הַדַּעַת / ha'da'at) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) and~DYSFUNCTIONAL (וָרָע / wa'ra) NOT (לֹא / lo) you(ms)~will~EAT(V) (תֹאכַל / to'khal) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) in~DAY (בְּיוֹם / bê'yom) you(ms)~>~EAT(V) (אֲכָלְךָ / a'khal'kha) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) >~DIE(V) (מוֹת / mot) you(ms)~will~DIE(V) (תָּמוּת / ta'mut)

RMT: but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,
The Torah: Genesis 2

Either way--it doesn't say one word about spiritual death.

Adam died at 930. That's not 1000 years. Especially since he was around 150 when he ate the apple. What's that roughly 780? God is too perfect to "round off" these numbers my dear.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit (who wrote the bible) gives people spiritual insight into his book today?
 
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ewq1938

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Adam died at 930. That's not 1000 years. Especially since he was around 150 when he ate the apple. What's that roughly 780? God is too perfect to "round off" these numbers my dear.


I think a better argument is in the fact that God said he would die in the day he ate of the fruit, which is a day to Adam and the eating in that normal day. A day like a thousand years is only in God's sense of time passing not Adam's.
 
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childeye 2

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Hi.

This is a serious question. Im questioning everything at the moment, maybe its just a crisis, maybe the Holy Spirit is guiding me, because i pray to be led in all truth and to see all lies...

If Jesus took my punishment - hell for eternity - why then got he resurrected to sit on the throne? Even tho he was without sin... if he takes my punishment it must be the same punishment or not?

The old testament says that the punishment for sin is death. "If you eat from the tree of knowledge, you must die", not "you must go to hell".

I mean... Jesus took a lot of damage and pain for us. But what is that compared for one person being burned alive for eternity?

Please don't answer to just trust that all this is just rightous, and Iam too human to comprehend it. There is too much deception going on and Im no longer willing to accept anything blindly.
It's good to ask questions. It's good to contemplate and seek the meanings of things that pertain to God.

It's important to realize that the Truth must precede the lie in existence, since the lie exists only to subvert the Truth. This is self evident. Therefore to see all lies is to understand what it is that they all exist to try and subvert. That Truth being subverted is the Holy, Loving and ever trustworthy Character of God.

I do not believe that Jesus was ever sent to be punished for our sins. I believe he was sent to destroy the works of the devil who held us condemned as prisoners through the power of death because of sin. I believe that Jesus paid the price of atonement according to the law with his own blood, so that the Truth of God's Eternal Love could be witnessed to by both angels and mankind, revealing such a Grace through the Gospel. Jesus does not take our punishment, he justifies our weakness as created beings. Hence God says that His strength is made perfect in weakness.
 
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Romans 8

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I think a better argument is in the fact that God said he would die in the day he ate of the fruit, which is a day to Adam and the eating in that normal day. A day like a thousand years is only in God's sense of time passing not Adam's.

Agree, I'm just showing her that even in her argument, it's incorrect.
 
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mmksparbud

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Actually no, it says they would die the same day and they didn't die physically that day so it was a spiritual death they died that day.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Read post #42!!
 
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mmksparbud

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Adam died at 930. That's not 1000 years. Especially since he was around 150 when he ate the apple. What's that roughly 780? God is too perfect to "round off" these numbers my dear.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit (who wrote the bible) gives people spiritual insight into his book today?


Again--read post #42--it is clear.
 
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After the first death---there will be a judgement and the final penalty. We all are resurrected from the first death. Then the sinners are destroyed in the lake of fire---there will be no more sin, no more tears, no more pain---there will be no more sinners. As long as someone is burning there is pain and tears and a sinner.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It says 2nd death--not second eternal life burning.
Just to confirm, you're promoting Ultimate Reconciliation?
 
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LightLoveHope

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Hi.

This is a serious question. Im questioning everything at the moment, maybe its just a crisis, maybe the Holy Spirit is guiding me, because i pray to be led in all truth and to see all lies...

If Jesus took my punishment - hell for eternity - why then got he resurrected to sit on the throne? Even tho he was without sin... if he takes my punishment it must be the same punishment or not?

The old testament says that the punishment for sin is death. "If you eat from the tree of knowledge, you must die", not "you must go to hell".

I mean... Jesus took a lot of damage and pain for us. But what is that compared for one person being burned alive for eternity?

Please don't answer to just trust that all this is just rightous, and Iam too human to comprehend it. There is too much deception going on and Im no longer willing to accept anything blindly.

Good question.
Here is an answer.
1. Hell is not a punishment, it is destruction
2. Hell is a punishment for satan and his angels.

Jesus took what we did, our sin, our hatred, our rejection and forgave it, but
it was in the time he lived up to His death. When He forgave us, the forgiveness
of God was proven, that He could be trusted with our worst sins and we know He
would forgive us and help us to find Him and walk in His ways.

The cross was less about a debt repayment, than a statement of His heart, proved
in blood and flesh that we can rely upon unto our death, and will cost us our
lives. So the weird contract is through death we find life, love and eternity.
This all sounds confused and ludicrous, but the wisdom of God is foolishness to
man. It is because we are made with a heart of love, and for that love to come
out, we needed to find real trust and real hope, and it had to be so loud, so
extroverted, so massive, we could not miss it.

So you are right eternal damnation does not match with the cross, but a heart
that needed a King to give it all up to show us, yes he does and love and will
forgive, can we now trust Him and accept His way and road to eternity?

Does this make sense my friend?
 
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mmksparbud

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Just to confirm, you're promoting Ultimate Reconciliation?

Have no idea what ultimate reconciliation means! I am promoting what the bible says---Death is death. Sinners die at the lake of fire. It is the 2nd death, not eternal life burning. No where does the bible say anything about spiritual death.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Have no idea what ultimate reconciliation means! I am promoting what the bible says---Death is death. Sinners die at the lake of fire. It is the 2nd death, not eternal life burning. No where does the bible say anything about spiritual death.
What does the bible say about what death is?

What's the purpose of death number one?

What's the purpose of death number two?
 
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mmksparbud

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What does the bible say about what death is?

What's the purpose of death number one?

What's the purpose of death number two?


Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We all die. That is the penalty of sin. Those in Christ will be resurrected unto life. Sinners are resurrected to pay the punishment for their evil "according to their works", then they will be destroyed in the lake of fire. No where does the bible say that sinners get eternal life. Eternal life is the reward to the saved. The purpose of the lake of fire and the 2nd death is to destroy sin.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We all die. That is the penalty of sin. Those in Christ will be resurrected unto life. Sinners are resurrected to pay the punishment for their evil "according to their works", then they will be destroyed in the lake of fire. No where does the bible say that sinners get eternal life. Eternal life is the reward to the saved. The purpose of the lake of fire and the 2nd death is to destroy sin.

The purpose of the lake of fire and the 2nd death is to destroy sin.

I agree with "The purpose of the lake of fire and the 2nd death is to destroy sin."

Since Daniel 12 says some will awake to everlasting contempt and shame, it is ambiguous what that means. But eternal life sounds nice, doesn't it?
 
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mmksparbud

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I agree with "The purpose of the lake of fire and the 2nd death is to destroy sin."

Since Daniel 12 says some will awake to everlasting contempt and shame, it is ambiguous what that means. But eternal life sounds nice, doesn't it?

For the saved it is! If eternal life is also granted to sinners---which is not stated anywhere in the bible--it wouldn't be nice for them!
 
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For the saved it is! If eternal life is also granted to sinners---which is not stated anywhere in the bible--it wouldn't be nice for them!
I've found Universal Reconciliation and Annihilationism tend to use the same logic based on compassion.

Isaiah 66
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 
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