The question continuationists must answer

[W2L]

I'm not so sure that it is off-topic.

In the OP you claim (infer) that there are no Apostles in the modern church today.
You say that this is evidenced by the presence of "division" in the church.
Because, you claim, that the NT apostles "fixed" division in the church.
Therefore, if there is division in the modern church this indicates "no apostles".

You go on to ask, "... how can all these church teachers be called by God if their doctrine divides us?"
Well, this begs the question. (which you want to remain off-topic)
If all the leaders of modern churches are NOT called of God, why would we follow them?
And if we weren't following them, why would we attend their churches?

That seems to be the ultimate conclusion here? Am I misunderstanding something?

Some people know they are following men rather than apostles and dont claim to have apostles in their church. Others are ignorant and think their apostles are right and others wrong, while others follow tickling messages to the ears.

 

[W2L]

You have clearly identified a "problem".
Would like to offer a "solution"?

Yes, dont claim to have modern apostles.

 

[W2L]

"become"?

How did they "become" of one mind (agree) if there were not initially differences of opinion?

It never says they were ever divided, it only says they became one mind, which could have happened before acts 15

 

[Saint Steven]

Some people know they are following men rather than apostles and dont claim to have apostles in their church. Others are ignorant and think their apostles are right and others wrong, while others follow tickling messages to the ears.

Yet there is division in and between all those categories, right? Which you define as "fleshly" (sinful). Churches led by leaders which you claim cannot be "called of God" due to the division found in them.

Even your topic title is divisive (fleshly?). You champion a cause that pits Cessationists against Continuationists. --- "The question continuationists must answer" --- Thus creating/maintaining division.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, dont claim to have modern apostles.

And that would remove all division from the church?
Please explain how that would work. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

It never says they were ever divided, it only says they became one mind, which could have happened before acts 15

If it happened before Acts 15, what was the point of discussing it?
When I read the chapter it seems that they had a tough decision to make.
They had to hear both sides and make a hard choice.

 

[Saint Steven]

Whenever the apostles confronted division in the church they fixed it. Where are all the modern day apostles who will fix the division in church today? Also, how can all these church teachers be called by God if their doctrine divides us? Does God teach division and confusion?

All?
You are questioning whether any ("all") of today's modern day church teachers are called by God.

Are there not ANY teachers in today's modern day church that you would consider to be "called by God"?

 

[Hillsage]

And that would remove all division from the church?
Please explain how that would work. Thanks.

The only way it would work, is the way it worked for the church of Rome. You kill everyone who doesn't agree and burn their works as heresy. But that's illegal today so we have false teachers murdering with their tongue instead. And it amazes me that the ones doing so here aren't Catholics..."the one true holy catholic and apostolic church for a 1500 years." Seems to me the armchair theologians today aren't even backing up their theological premise with their church pedigree. Instead they are in the 'church' of these last days...five hundred years....Protestant. Appreciate your heart Steve, but you can never nail a raw egg, even if you get through its hard shell, it just keep slipping away.

 

[Saint Steven]

The only way it would work, is the way it worked for the church of Rome. You kill everyone who doesn't agree and burn their works as heresy. But that's illegal today so we have false teachers murdering with their tongue instead. And it amazes me that the ones doing so here aren't Catholics..."the one true holy catholic and apostolic church for a 1500 years." Seems to me the armchair theologians today aren't even backing up their theological premise with their church pedigree. Instead they are in the 'church' of these last days...five hundred years....Protestant. Appreciate your heart Steve, but you can never nail a raw egg, even if you get through its hard shell, it just keep slipping away.

You got that right. Thanks.
I may have hit a nerve on posts #286 and #298.

I was re-reading some of the posts from the beginning of this thread and found this winner. IMHO

Doctrinal differences are not a problem to blame on someone.
Which of these two groups are Christians?
1) Calvinists
2) Arminians

Do they agree doctrinally? Nope. Are they both Christians? Yup.
Who would you like to blame for this "problem"?

 

[W2L]

And that would remove all division from the church?
Please explain how that would work. Thanks.

No, it would be truthful however and truth is good

 

[W2L]

If it happened before Acts 15, what was the point of discussing it?
When I read the chapter it seems that they had a tough decision to make.
They had to hear both sides and make a hard choice.

But there are no apostles today, so no one is considering anything except that their church denomination is the "true church"

 

[W2L]

All?
You are questioning whether any ("all") of today's modern day church teachers are called by God.

Are there not ANY teachers in today's modern day church that you would consider to be "called by God"?

Called by God? No, mostly they are trained by man in fallible theology.

 

[W2L]

The only way it would work, is the way it worked for the church of Rome. You kill everyone who doesn't agree and burn their works as heresy. But that's illegal today so we have false teachers murdering with their tongue instead. And it amazes me that the ones doing so here aren't Catholics..."the one true holy catholic and apostolic church for a 1500 years." Seems to me the armchair theologians today aren't even backing up their theological premise with their church pedigree. Instead they are in the 'church' of these last days...five hundred years....Protestant. Appreciate your heart Steve, but you can never nail a raw egg, even if you get through its hard shell, it just keep slipping away.

Truth seems to slip away

 

[Saint Steven]

But there are no apostles today, so no one is considering anything except that their church denomination is the "true church"

Christ himself gave the church "apostles... so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." - Eph.4:11-13

Are we there yet? (nope) We must still have apostles then.

Ephesians 4:11-13
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

[W2L]

Christ himself gave the church "apostles... so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." - Eph.4:11-13

Are we there yet? (nope) We must still have apostles then.

Ephesians 4:11-13
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

That was in the days of the real apostles. If you believe God called both the RCC and Protestantism you are mistaken.

 

[Saint Steven]

Appreciate your heart Steve, but you can never nail a raw egg, even if you get through its hard shell, it just keep slipping away.

No worries. Ultimately the readers recognize the debate winner.
I don't see any positive votes for the opponent. That says it all.

 

[YeshuaFan]

What?
The prophecy of Joel says "In the last days",
and you said, "Since the time of ascension of Christ!".
How can it then be in a time yet to come?

Acts 2:17-18
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Partial fulfillment in Pentecost, but future fulfilment yet to come!

 

[YeshuaFan]

And Sam Storms would certainly know all about the false teachings that cessasionists believe and use to divide the church. He was a professor at Dallas Theological seminary many years back preaching against the spiritual gifts, like those in 1Cor 14:23 which calls those who were like him; "ungifted NAS, "unlearned" KJV "who do not understand" NIV. I have two of Sam Storm's booklets; "A biblical foundation for the baptism and the filling of the Holy Spirit" AND "A biblical foundation for speaking in tongues". I may not agree totally with him on his theology, but at least I know we agree on one thing. We're more concerned that you 'get it' than 'whether or not' you ever get your 'doctrine' right 'about it'.

We do not say that all spiritual gifts ceased, just that the ones God gifted the Apostles with certainly did!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Modern day "prophets" and "apostles" dont fix church division like the real apostles did 2000 years ago.

They wouldn't be able to, since none of them still exist today!

 

[Hillsage]

We do not say that all spiritual gifts ceased, just that the ones God gifted the Apostles with certainly did!

I declare you to be the expert for what you just said. Unfortunately, without scriptural support, you've only proven to me that you 'just don't know what you're talking about.'