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The question continuationists must answer

Paul G West Sr

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It will likely NEVER be resolved. Cessationism is like a terminal cancer in the church.
Brother Steven:

What if we rename the two factions? What if the truth is that Cessationists are really "Departurists", who have lost the true Gospel with its Spiritual Gifts, and Continuationist are really "Returnists", attempting to return the church to its' lost form?

Can W2L convince us that he knows what the church was like in the year 500? Were the Spiritual Gifts in operation as powerfully then as they were in the year 80? What if the Cessationists are holding the church back from returning to all that it once was?

Does anyone doubt that the church is in great need of power today? Does anyone doubt that the church should be impacting the world to a much greater extent that it is? Is there room for growth in the body of Christ?

I say the church is very sick and unable to attract people as it once did, and if a powerfully "GIFTED" church were to appear, the world would be turned on its head! I for one would love to see that happen! Anything to wake the church from the near-death body that I see today.

There are some who are alive and they do attract non-believers to what is different about them, but that is the way we all should be; on fire, un-containable! If we were only righteous, as God is attempting to make us, we would draw people like flies!

"I can make myself nice, but only God can make me righteous"....Paul G. West, Sr.
 
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Saint Steven

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Brother Steven:

What if we rename the two factions? What if the truth is that Cessationists are really "Departurists", who have lost the true Gospel with its Spiritual Gifts, and Continuationist are really "Returnists", attempting to return the church to its' lost form?

Can W2L convince us that he knows what the church was like in the year 500? Were the Spiritual Gifts in operation as powerfully then as they were in the year 80? What if the Cessationists are holding the church back from returning to all that it once was?

Does anyone doubt that the church is in great need of power today? Does anyone doubt that the church should be impacting the world to a much greater extent that it is? Is there room for growth in the body of Christ?

I say the church is very sick and unable to attract people as it once did, and if a powerfully "GIFTED" church were to appear, the world would be turned on its head! I for one would love to see that happen! Anything to wake the church from the near-death body that I see today.

There are some who are alive and they do attract non-believers to what is different about them, but that is the way we all should be; on fire, un-containable! If we were only righteous, as God is attempting to make us, we would draw people like flies!

"I can make myself nice, but only God can make me righteous"....Paul G. West, Sr.
Feel free to call me Steve, Brother Paul.

You bring up some points on this subject that are rarely discussed. The "why" questions that cannot be answered with chapter and verse. Basically, the "social/political" side of the story. One author I have read on the subject points to Dispensationalism as the cause. I'm digging into this a bit more.

While growing up in the Protestant Evangelical church I saw church members asking the questions, and Cessationism providing the "answers". Bible readers wanted to know why we weren't seeing miracles today. They wanted to know why the gifts of the Holy Spirit were never talked about. They wanted to know why the church across town was speaking in tongues and praying for the sick.

The response I saw was akin to the fear of the unknown. "We don't know what those tongues speakers are saying." Even the tongues-speakers couldn't answer that question, unless they had the gift or interpretation. So, the whole phenomenon was held in suspicion. "Could be the devil.", they cautioned. This was a cause for division in the church. And the OP of this topic blames the Continuationists for the division. Assuming that Cessationism is the "right" answer.

And the tenets of Cessationism were used to demonstrate that what those tongues-speakers was doing was not theologically sound. The Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, they said, were "Operating on bad doctrine." After all, they claimed, "The Apostle Paul himself said that tongues would cease." And if the chief Apostle says so, who's going to argue with him, right?

Meanwhile back at the ranch... some frantic parents bring their daughter Susie to the Pastor. She appears to be manifesting a demon, not sure. The Pastor has no idea how to deal with this, of course. He doesn't agree 100 percent with those tongues-speakers across town, but he had heard that they were successfully dealing with problems like this. So, Susie and her parents were asked to quietly check it out, but be careful. Happily, that was the answer to the issue. Unfortunately, it all had to be kept under wraps, because there were some, ahem, doctrinal questions involved. Eventually Susie and her parents got sick of the hypocrisy and joined the church where they found freedom from spiritual bondage and the support of life-giving power. Anyway...

I like what you are saying about "Returnists". That defines what we are trying to do here. And it unfortunately has been a tough road back. I'm not comfortable laying the term "Departurists" on those who embrace Cessationism. Let's face it. By the time they arrived, there was nothing left to depart from. Furthermore, I don't want us to sink to a level in the debate of... -- well, let's be the better persons.

Sometimes I visit other churches to worship with family or whatever. It's like a funeral service. I couldn't do that unless they were the only church in town. And I see those brave souls among them that dare to raise a hand in worship. They are wise to close their eyes to avoid the uncomfortable looks in their direction. I'll raise both hands in support of that direction, but hold back on the tongues, so as to not be dragged out the back door by the users. lol
 
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Francis Drake

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W2L,

I'm new to the forum, and quite new to the words Cessationist and Continuationist.
Hi Paul and welcome to the forum.
I have always been a Cesssationist - 73+ yrs.), but have had a few things happen in my life recently to make me take another look at the issue. I have not been aware of the huge accusations you are now throwing their way, that somehow they are responsible for division in our churches?
The idea that continuationists are somehow responsible for division in the churches has to be one of the most idiotic and ill thought out accusations in all church history.

Consider these facts.-
Cessationists claim that all the gifts ceased with the death of the apostles. They also claim that continuationists only reintroduced the gifts (or false gifts as they would say) around 1900.

Given that the last apostle probably died somewhere around AD100, that would leave the church entirely in the hands of these cessationists for 1800 years.

Its interesting to note that in that 1800 year period, the church has been riven from top to bottom, side to side with literally thousands of sects and denominations, all achieved by the cessationists alone, with no help from continuationists, (which should they have arisen, were likely burned as witches!)

These obvious facts prove that the primary causes of church division throughout history has been the cessationists, not those who believe in the gifts today.
 
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Saint Steven

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These obvious facts prove that the primary causes of church division throughout history has been the cessationists, not those who believe in the gifts today.
Those are some great points. Thanks.
As I understand it, there has always been a remnant of gifts-using believers throughout history. I'll dig through my notes and post some of that here.
 
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Saint Steven

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A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

Source link
 
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Saint Steven

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I found this list. I have quotes for all these movements if I keep digging.
Source link at the bottom.

Pentecostal and Charismatic renewals/Revivals

- The French Huguenots
- The First Awakening in America (1730-1780)
- John Wesley
- George Whitefield
- Jonathan Edwards
- Francis Asbury
- The Cane Ridge Revival
- Charles Finney
- George Fox
- Frank Bartleman and the Azusa Street Revival of 1906
- John Alexander Dowie
- John G. Lake
- Aimee Semple McPherson
- William Branham
- The Welch Revival of 1904
- Commentary on the revivals from Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

The Manifestations of the Spirit in Church History
 
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Saint Steven

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Here's a post I published in 2017.

Next, let's focus on the period after the Early Church Fathers (post-apostolic) age.
Around the time of the formation of the Roman Church (Catholicism).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Holy Spirit in (developing) Christian Theology -

The branch of Christian theology concerned with the Holy Spirit is called Pneumatology.
A formal doctrine of the Holy Spirit wasn't articulate until the early third century.
Tertullian (c.160-c.225) and the Montanist heresy showed the need to distinguish between true and false activities of the Holy Spirit. Origen of Alexandria (c.185-c.254) taught that the Spirit worked primarily within the Church, whereas the Word (Christ) worked within the whole of creation. Source

This is significant. And something I had been suspecting all along. But I needed proof.
The various councils and synods were used to codify doctrine. This required committees and debate and decisions to be made about orthodoxy. Unfortunately, there are two sides to this coin. It was a necessary as it was harmful. As seen in the Montanist "heresy". Notice what was "heretical" about the Montanists.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Montanism, also called Cataphrygian heresy, or New Prophecy, a heretical movement founded by the prophet Montanus that arose in the Christian church in Phrygia, Asia Minor, in the 2nd century. Subsequently it flourished in the West, principally in Carthage under the leadership of Tertullian in the 3rd century.

Montanism, known by its adherents as the New Prophecy, was an early Christian movement of the late 2nd century, later referred to by the name of its founder, Montanus. The movement held the basic tenets of Christian doctrine of the wider Church, although believing in new revelations and ecstasies, unapproved by the wider Church; the Bishop of Rome ultimately condemned the movement as heretical and excommunicated its adherents. It was a prophetic movement that called for a reliance on the spontaneity of the Holy Spirit and a more conservative personal ethic. Parallels have been drawn between Montanism and modern-day movements such as Pentecostalism, the charismatic movement, and the New Apostolic Reformation.

It originated in Phrygia, a province of Asia Minor, and flourished throughout the region,
leading to the movement being referred to elsewhere as "Cataphrygian" (meaning it was "from Phrygia") or simply as "Phrygian". It spread rapidly to other regions in the Roman Empire at a time before Christianity was generally tolerated or legal. It persisted in some isolated places into the 6th century.
Source: Wikipedia


There it is.
Orthodoxy was
the enemy of the
manifestations of
the Holy Spirit.


In the development of Christian orthodoxy, the church leaders felt it necessary to
distinguish between true and false activities of the Holy Spirit. Huge mistake.

The Montanists were the ones
who were continuing the pursuit of
the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
But church history labels Montanism
as unorthodox heresy, for which the
adherents were excommunicated.
 
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Saint Steven

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Here's another post from 2017

Let's look at the Protestant Reformation.
Which will bring us up to the 15th and 16th centuries.

The Huguenots, France -

Bernard Bresson, in his extensive historical study of Medieval Pentecost, cites sources indicating Calvin’s reformation experiences were a product of his association with the Huguenots who repeatedly manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their meetings. When Calvin was at last well-established in Geneva, he secretly supported in every way those persecuted Protestant Huguenots in France.

Thus, the Huguenots became an important link in the chain of events that awakened the whole Protestant movement to larger vistas of New Testament doctrine. So while Luther’s revival in Germany was progressing, similar convictions began to appear in France. This occurred, at least in part, because of the widespread circulation in France of Luther’s writings, even influencing — as has been cited above — John Calvin’s sudden conversion. Officially, of course, France was a Catholic stronghold, and the royals — the monarchs of that nation — were ever under pressure from Rome to keep it Catholic, at any cost.

The Protestant Reformation - Cont'd

The Huguenots, France - Cont'd

One example of these deceptive intermissions occurred on St. Bartholomew’s Day, 1572. As the day approached, circumstances between the Protestants and the Catholics seemed relatively peaceful. Many Huguenot nobles had gathered in Paris for the festive occasion. In fact, an important wedding was planned for a leading Huguenot nobleman, Henry of Navarre, and Marguerite of Valois, Charles IX’s sister. But Catherine de Medici, the mother of the youthful king, had been in connivance with other Catholic leaders to take advantage of the unsuspecting Huguenots gathering in Paris for the occasion.

The Catholics initiated a nighttime attack that ultimately massacred 8,000 of the
visitors to the capital. Admiral Coligny, a reputable leader of the Huguenots and a
respected politician, was among those assassinated by the Catholic deception.

During the days that followed this surprise attack, Catholics systematically exterminated thousands more Huguenots throughout the provinces of France. Catholics declared open season everywhere on the Protestant Huguenots. It has been conservatively estimated that over 70,000 were unconscionably martyred. And ironically, the Pope, now convinced that all the Catholics who were involved had at last accomplished the will of God, “sent congratulations to Catherine and both thought they were done with the Huguenots.”

Many Huguenots, however, lived on, perhaps to die yet another day — but alive, nonetheless, and still committed to their strong faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. In spite of the supposed demise of the Huguenots, there were survivors of that terrible massacre. These survivors fled to the Alpine region of the Cevennes mountains, where the troubled remnant cried out to God for grace to endure. A loving Heavenly Father answered by pouring out His Spirit, thereby comforting those harassed believers. Source
 
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Francis Drake

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Those are some great points. Thanks.
As I understand it, there has always been a remnant of gifts-using believers throughout history. I'll dig through my notes and post some of that here.
Absolutely, of course the gifts have continued, but I was just turning the cessationists' weapons against themselves.
 
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Hillsage

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Lets also take advantage of their own "ungifted/unlearned"guru and his anti tongue cessationist book, to also confirm that tongues were around 300 years ago.

"Another group that practiced a form of tongues was the Shakers, an American sect with Quaker roots that flourished in the mid-1700s. .... They spoke in tongues while dancing and singing in a trance-like state. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234) "

Dear John MacArthur, you are 'unwittingly' speaking with the biased tongue, in an unspiritual-like state in your quote above. :doh:
 
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Saint Steven

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Lets also take advantage of their own "ungifted/unlearned"guru and his anti tongue cessationist book, to also confirm that tongues were around 300 years ago.

"Another group that practiced a form of tongues was the Shakers, an American sect with Quaker roots that flourished in the mid-1700s. .... They spoke in tongues while dancing and singing in a trance-like state. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234) "

Dear John MacArthur, you are 'unwittingly' speaking with the biased tongue, in an unspiritual-like state in your quote above. :doh:
So if that can't prove that tongues ceased they will try to make it look like voodoo. Is that what we have here?
 
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Francis Drake

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The debate between cessationism and continuationism is as old as creation itself, it is the Garden of Eden all over again, day by day.

There were two trees in the garden, the Tree of Life and the Tree of Death! Which one are you eating from?

Tree of Death you ask?
Certainly, -Adam was warned that eating any fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil would bring death, so Tree of Death is a perfectly accurate description!

Challenging God, Satan promised Adam that eating the fruit of "Knowledge" would enable him to become like God. In other words, Adam could take his dominion of the planet via his own intellectual knowledge, ie. using his brain, instead of his Spiritual union with God.
Of course, being "like God" is just shorthand for "replacing God"!

So Adam chose to put his independent thinking brain in command, effectively declaring himself separate from God.

Adam should have chosen to eat of the Tree of Life, which would have enabled him to tap into God's own wisdom.
But Adam rejected God, without God he spiritually died.

The Tree of Knowledge is basically what it says, knowledge that man stores in his brain or his computer. Such knowledge enables many things, both good and bad. But we must recognise that it's not just bad knowledge that brings death, but both good and bad knowledge bring death.

We also need to recognise that our personal Tree of Knowledge also stores our bible knowledge, which again can also bring death. This can be seen with the scribes Pharisees and teachers of the Law who despite their encyclopaedic knowledge of the bible, still remained spiritually dead.

As Proverbs, and the book of James both make abundantly clear, God's wisdom has always been available to man.
But man, including most Christians invariably prefer their own intellect, so have little time for what God thinks.

Those who claim that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased, are doing exactly the same as Adam. They place their Tree of Bible knowledge on a higher plane than listening to the Holy Spirit. The result is the same as Adam saw, spiritual death.

In no way are we talking about losing salvation here, just living in spiritual emptiness, devoid of what God would freely bestow on us.
Remember what Jesus said, "I only do what I see my Father in Heaven doing" That is what we should seek to do, and it does not come from bible knowledge, it comes from our communion with God's Spirit.
 
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Hillsage

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So if that can't prove that tongues ceased they will try to make it look like voodoo. Is that what we have here?
I think that's what we've had for 1500 years. The 'Ungifted' became a majority and that morphed into the apostate church.
 
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Saint Steven

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I think that's what we've had for 1500 years. The 'Ungifted' became a majority and that morphed into the apostate church.
Basically anything to do with the gifts is considered "unorthodox". (the real enemy)
 
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Hillsage

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Basically anything to do with the gifts is considered "unorthodox". (the real enemy)
I can't really say orthodox or unorthodox, I suppose. I just know 'we' all find their position sad, having been there ourselves. I do think it is too much of 'the traditions of man' and 'sola scriptura'. The beginning church was definitely more 'sola Holy Spirit'. And Satan has made the walk in the Spirit of the living word into a fight over the dead letter.

It would help to know how the early church, which never really had a 'bible', but did have the Holy Spirit and did so much spiritual good....ended up losing so much to become the church of today, which has a 'bible' but so little spirituality.
 
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Saint Steven

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I can't really say orthodox or unorthodox, I suppose. I just know 'we' all find their position sad, having been there ourselves. I do think it is too much of 'the traditions of man' and 'sola scriptura'. The beginning church was definitely more 'sola Holy Spirit'. And Satan has made the walk in the Spirit of the living word into a fight over the dead letter.

It would help to know how the early church, which never really had a 'bible', but did have the Holy Spirit and did so much spiritual good....ended up losing so much to become the church of today, which has a 'bible' but so little spirituality.
It's funny. (peculiar) We don't have much to base our view of the activities of the early church on. If the Corinthians had not been swinging from the chandeliers and needed some correction, we wouldn't even have 1Cor12-14. Where 95 percent of what we know is contained.
 
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Hillsage

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It's funny. (peculiar) We don't have much to base our view of the activities of the early church on. If the Corinthians had not been swinging from the chandeliers and needed some correction, we wouldn't even have 1Cor12-14. Where 95 percent of what we know is contained.
Oh there's historical record of the "chandeliers" stuff going way back. :)

All bold, underling is mine.
1500 AD
  • 1500's Anabaptists, Europe. (Bloesch, 11,115-16; Michael Hamilton, The Charismatic Movement (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975), pp. 73-74; "Pentecostal Churches," EB, XIV, 31.) One of the four main branches of the early Protestant movement (along with Lutherans, Reformed, and Anglicans). Unlike other Protestants, the Anabaptists emphasized the restoration of apostolic patterns of worship and lifestyle, the importance of a conversion experience, baptism of believers only, baptism by immersion, total separation of church and state, the power to overcome sin after conversion, and the need to live a holy life. A prominent Anabaptist leader named Menno Simons, whose followers became known as Mennonites, wrote about speaking in tongues as if it were expected evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. (Hamilton, p. 74.) Many early Anabaptists worshiped quite demonstratively; in the words of a secular history text some participated in "very excited, 'enthusiastic,' evangelical practices... what Americans know as 'holy rolling'... The congregation sometimes shouted and danced, and always sang hymns with great fervor." (Crane Brinton et al, A History of Civilization 3rd ed. (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1967), I, 472, 480.) In view of their doctrine and worship, it is not at all surprising that speaking in tongues occurred among early Anabaptists. (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton)
This one amazes above me, because I take care of a lot of Mennonites today, and they are so far from their spiritual roots it is unbelievable.

1700 AD
Camisards, southern France (often called the Prophets of the Cevennes). ("Tongues, Gift of," Smith's Dictionary of the Bible, IV, 3310-11.; "Camisards," ERE, 111,175-176; "Pentecostal Churches," EB XIV, 31; Schaff, I, 114; "Tongues, Gift of," B, IV, 796.) A group of Huguenots (French Protestants), mostly peasants, who resisted the attempts of Louis XIV's government to convert them to Roman Catholicism. Many were imprisoned, tortured, and martyred. Observers reported tongues, uneducated peasants and young children prophesying in pure, elegant French, enthusiastic, demonstrative worship, and people "seized by the Spirit."


As you can see above, and as I've mentioned so many times, the church of Rome martyred those who disagreed with them. I'm curious as to what "seized by the Spirit" meant. Would that be like 'slain by the Spirit' today?

1801 AD
  • Revivals and Camp Meetings, America. It is reported that physical demonstrations occurred in later American revivals, called the Second Awakening, which began with camp meetings in Kentucky and swept across the American frontier. (Clark, pp. 114-17.)
  • In the camp meetings people "shouted, sobbed, leaped in the air, writhed on the ground, fell like dead men and lay insensible for considerable periods, and engaged in unusual bodily contortions," in addition to manifesting the "holy laugh," the "barks," and the "jerks." (Clark, pp. 116-17.)
  • Observers at various American revival meetings reported sobbing, shrieking, shouting, spasms, falling, rolling, running, dancing, barking, whole congregations breathing in distress and weeping, and hundreds under conviction and on the ground repenting. (William Sweet, The Story of Religion in America (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1950), pp. 133, 227-31.)
Falling like a dead man has happened to me personally. And all the "ungifted/unlearned" here talk about how the "barking and holy laughter" stuff that happened with the Toronto outpouring was all new and demonic. :doh: When in fact it is 'they' who are behind the spiritual times. And it is 'they' who still appear unqualified to judge such spiritual things correctly....IMO of course. ;)
 
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Oh there's historical record of the "chandeliers" stuff going way back. :)

All bold, underling is mine.
1500 AD
  • 1500's Anabaptists, Europe. (Bloesch, 11,115-16; Michael Hamilton, The Charismatic Movement (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975), pp. 73-74; "Pentecostal Churches," EB, XIV, 31.) One of the four main branches of the early Protestant movement (along with Lutherans, Reformed, and Anglicans). Unlike other Protestants, the Anabaptists emphasized the restoration of apostolic patterns of worship and lifestyle, the importance of a conversion experience, baptism of believers only, baptism by immersion, total separation of church and state, the power to overcome sin after conversion, and the need to live a holy life. A prominent Anabaptist leader named Menno Simons, whose followers became known as Mennonites, wrote about speaking in tongues as if it were expected evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. (Hamilton, p. 74.) Many early Anabaptists worshiped quite demonstratively; in the words of a secular history text some participated in "very excited, 'enthusiastic,' evangelical practices... what Americans know as 'holy rolling'... The congregation sometimes shouted and danced, and always sang hymns with great fervor." (Crane Brinton et al, A History of Civilization 3rd ed. (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1967), I, 472, 480.) In view of their doctrine and worship, it is not at all surprising that speaking in tongues occurred among early Anabaptists. (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton)
This one amazes above me, because I take care of a lot of Mennonites today, and they are so far from their spiritual roots it is unbelievable.

1700 AD
Camisards, southern France (often called the Prophets of the Cevennes). ("Tongues, Gift of," Smith's Dictionary of the Bible, IV, 3310-11.; "Camisards," ERE, 111,175-176; "Pentecostal Churches," EB XIV, 31; Schaff, I, 114; "Tongues, Gift of," B, IV, 796.) A group of Huguenots (French Protestants), mostly peasants, who resisted the attempts of Louis XIV's government to convert them to Roman Catholicism. Many were imprisoned, tortured, and martyred. Observers reported tongues, uneducated peasants and young children prophesying in pure, elegant French, enthusiastic, demonstrative worship, and people "seized by the Spirit."


As you can see above, and as I've mentioned so many times, the church of Rome martyred those who disagreed with them. I'm curious as to what "seized by the Spirit" meant. Would that be like 'slain by the Spirit' today?

1801 AD
  • Revivals and Camp Meetings, America. It is reported that physical demonstrations occurred in later American revivals, called the Second Awakening, which began with camp meetings in Kentucky and swept across the American frontier. (Clark, pp. 114-17.)
  • In the camp meetings people "shouted, sobbed, leaped in the air, writhed on the ground, fell like dead men and lay insensible for considerable periods, and engaged in unusual bodily contortions," in addition to manifesting the "holy laugh," the "barks," and the "jerks." (Clark, pp. 116-17.)
  • Observers at various American revival meetings reported sobbing, shrieking, shouting, spasms, falling, rolling, running, dancing, barking, whole congregations breathing in distress and weeping, and hundreds under conviction and on the ground repenting. (William Sweet, The Story of Religion in America (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1950), pp. 133, 227-31.)
Falling like a dead man has happened to me personally. And all the "ungifted/unlearned" here talk about how the "barking and holy laughter" stuff that happened with the Toronto outpouring was all new and demonic. :doh: When in fact it is 'they' who are behind the spiritual times. And it is 'they' who still appear unqualified to judge such spiritual things correctly....IMO of course. ;)
That's good. The 1500s the 1700s and the 1800s. A long time after the first Apostles.
I suppose the Cessationists would say "It's the devil."
The barking is a bit much, even for me. lol
 
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Hillsage

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That's good. The 1500s the 1700s and the 1800s. A long time after the first Apostles.
I suppose the Cessationists would say "It's the devil."
The barking is a bit much, even for me. lol
of course they would. It’s what they’ve always done.

But the Holy Spirit isn’t making anyone do ‘those things’ IMO. He is simply the source of the ‘inspiration’, but people provide the ‘perspiration’ to act silly. Although the power of being slain of the Spirit is a scriptural fact
 
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ladodgers6

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Whenever the apostles confronted division in the church they fixed it. Where are all the modern day apostles who will fix the division in church today? Also, how can all these church teachers be called by God if their doctrine divides us? Does God teach division and confusion?

The division and confusion of the church comes from only one place; namely Satan! He is clever and deceitful and prowls around to devour people. He disguises himself as a Angel of light.

So a Christian must read, study, and know God's word. Like the Bereans who challenged even the Apostle Paul when he preached; with Scripture. Understanding sin, what plight we are in is a start. Understand the first accounts of creation to the Fall. Understanding God's Covenant of Works with the first Adam, the Covenant of Grace made with the second Adam is key to understanding God and his Amazing Grace!
 
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