A Biblical Case For Repentance

[Bible Highlighter]

Saved to what?

The topic of this discussion is about the Sinner's Prayer. I started a thread to this other topic that you are interested in.

What purpose are we saved for?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If sin is the transgression of the law, define transgression of the law. Is this the original and only sin?

The topic of this discussion is the Sinner's Prayer. I replied to you in these threads here:

What is sin?

Is Original Sin Biblical? If so, how do you define it?

 

[timothyu]

I just do not believe baptism is for salvation

Rejection of the traditional will of man for the will of God.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[timothyu]

I

Sin = transgression of the Law.
Sin = the breaking of God's laws or commandments.

As for Original Sin: The Bible says sin (or transgression of the Law) from Adam passed down upon all men so that all have sinned.

In other words, putting the self serving, self justifying will of man before God's will and rather than love neighbour as self, seek gain at the expense of others, redefining good and evil to suit personal wants. Therefore salvation which is the previously unattainable Kingdom of God, is attainable by rejection of and reversal of the original sin.

 

[Fidelibus]

For the record, I said the church, for that is the subject of the scripture quoted. Jesus only established one church.

I agree, the one visable Holy Catholic Church. (Matthew 16:18.)

I did not say all faithful, for the gates of Hades would have then prevailed, and it did not.

You have yet to give an exact date of when the Catholic Chuch supposedly apostatized. If it is your belief this happened in the early centuries of its existence, could you explain to me how an entire Church could apostatize, unless every single member of it agreed to do so, and all apostatized at the same point in time? Could you show using the "bible only", the verse or verses that prove it? Again, as I stated above, you have yet to give a date when this is supposed to have happen. So I'll ask once again, could you give me a firm date of when this great historical event took place?

Once again, do you not believe that the Bible is a historical document; I believe it is our best, by far.

I'll put it to you this way. (with the help of Catholicanswers.cm) As Catholics, we put the Church before the Bible because the Church existed first and compiled the Bible. The authority of the Bible depends on that of the Church. Then we use the Bible to prove the Church; we use it not as an inspired volume, but merely as a historical document. From the Gospels as historical documents we learn that Christ founded a Church, but the authority of the Gospels as inspired writings rests on the word of the Church.


Though collections of sacred writings, varying in extent, existed in the various local Churches of Christendom, the canon or official list of Scripture was only compiled by the Church toward the end of the fourth century—at Hippo in 393, Carthage in 397, whence it was sent to Rome for confirmation in 419. The Bible may be called the notebook of the Church, and she has always claimed to be the guardian, exponent, and interpreter of it. . . .

Do you not believe that Paul was a real man, inspired by the Almighty?

Real man? sure. Inspired by God? Well, let me ask you this, with the exception of the author of the book of Revelation....St.John, could you show (from the bible alone) where any N.T. writer explicitly claims that he himself is writing at the direct mandate of God?



Have a Blessed day

 

[timothyu]

Remember the good ol' days when the church followed the will of God and was loyal to the Kingdom of God. Remember the day the music died when a faction of the church broadsided the Kingdom and Jesus and officially rejoined the world of man, aligned with State, whoring itself to Babylon (as Peter called Rome), contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the will of God and ways of the Kingdom? Good thing that didn't last.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree. But I also believe Jesus indwelled the OT saint so as to give them salvation, too. Many of them may not have known Christ's name like NT saints did, but they abided in the Lord as a part of salvation none the less.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:4).

I had said...The indwelling spirit promised to come with the New Covenant in Jeramiah 31 and 32 was available before Pentecost as Jesus appeared to the disciples and breathed on them, they received His indwelling presence - John 20:22. The giving of the Spirit at Pentecost was an empowering for ministry the same was as Jesus received as a permanent anointing to empower His ministry. Salvation comes with the indwelling of Jesus in the New Covenant. Empowering for ministry is a different issue.

And you replied as above...

Can I point out that in Jeremiah 31 and 32 we see prophesies of a New Covenant to come in which God's Spirit would indwell the believers sometime in the future.

If this covenant was already in place as you suggest, the prophesy would be false.

Clearly this is not so, the OT believers did not require the indwelling presence to be saved, their salvation came via the cross in response to faith in the Father. The cross is a timeless event which spans all history past and future through which the faithful believers are saved.

Blessings

Carl Emerson.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But being born of the Spirit is nothing new. The words "circumcision of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament (or Old Covenant).

Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:3 Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus would have known about 'circumcision of the heart' being well versed in the OT.
Jesus was clearly presenting something that Nicodemus knew nothing about and said exactly that.

To suggest that being born again was simply circumcision of the heart makes no sense of this passage.

Again in Jer 31 and 32 we see prophesies regarding a New Covenant unique in the fact that His Spirit would in the future indwell hearts and the fear of Him would seal them against disobedience. This happens when we are born again.

Blessings

Carl Emerson.

 

[timothyu]

Flesh rarely condemns flesh on it's own but the spirit has no problem doing so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I had said...The indwelling spirit promised to come with the New Covenant in Jeramiah 31 and 32 was available before Pentecost as Jesus appeared to the disciples and breathed on them, they received His indwelling presence - John 20:22. The giving of the Spirit at Pentecost was an empowering for ministry the same was as Jesus received as a permanent anointing to empower His ministry. Salvation comes with the indwelling of Jesus in the New Covenant. Empowering for ministry is a different issue.

And you replied as above...

Can I point out that in Jeremiah 31 and 32 we see prophesies of a New Covenant to come in which God's Spirit would indwell the believers sometime in the future.

If this covenant was already in place as you suggest, the prophesy would be false.

Clearly this is not so, the OT believers did not require the indwelling presence to be saved, their salvation came via the cross in response to faith in the Father. The cross is a timeless event which spans all history past and future through which the faithful believers are saved.

Blessings

Carl Emerson.

The topic of discussion is the Sinner's Prayer. So I replied to you in this thread here:

Old Testament saints were born again.

Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:3 Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus would have known about 'circumcision of the heart' being well versed in the OT.
Jesus was clearly presenting something that Nicodemus knew nothing about and said exactly that.

To suggest that being born again was simply circumcision of the heart makes no sense of this passage.

Again in Jer 31 and 32 we see prophesies regarding a New Covenant unique in the fact that His Spirit would in the future indwell hearts and the fear of Him would seal them against disobedience. This happens when we are born again.

Blessings

Carl Emerson.

The topic of this thread is the Sinner's Prayer. So I replied to you in this thread here:

Old Testament saints were born again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, putting the self serving, self justifying will of man before God's will and rather than love neighbour as self, seek gain at the expense of others, redefining good and evil to suit personal wants. Therefore salvation which is the previously unattainable Kingdom of God, is attainable by rejection of and reversal of the original sin.

The topic of this thread is the Sinner's Prayer, please do not discuss these other topics here. If you want to talk about "Original Sin" check out this new thread here.

Is Original Sin Biblical? If so, how do you define it?

If you want to talk about Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation, then check out this thread here.

Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Flesh rarely condemns flesh on it's own but the spirit has no problem doing so.

We are all getting off topic of this thread. This thread is about the Sinner's Prayer. So please stay on topic. If you want to talk more on your cryptic reply here, then please start another thread and post the link.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK so Jesus expected Nicodemus to be familiar with the term being 'Born Again' not mentioned anywhere in the OT...

Not so...

He was simply getting his attention in a very Jewish way to gain his ear by presenting a concept beyond his comprehension and experience, and He continues to do this speaking of the resurrection in Jn3:13,14

The New Covenant promise of His indwelling presence was never available in the Old Covenant as Jeremiah 31:31f and 32:37f states very clearly. We receive this New Covenant promise when we are born again. It is not at all surprising that Nicodemus knew nothing about it...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Remember the good ol' days when the church followed the will of God and was loyal to the Kingdom of God. Remember the day the music died when a faction of the church broadsided the Kingdom and Jesus and officially rejoined the world of man, aligned with State, whoring itself to Babylon (as Peter called Rome), contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the will of God and ways of the Kingdom? Good thing that didn't last.

This is an off topic discussion. We all got off topic to the main discussion of this thread. Including myself. The topic of this discussion is the Sinner's Prayer. If you want to talk more about what you are saying in your post, start another thread please. The topic of this thread is the Sinner's Prayer.

 

[timothyu]

You are all over the map here and you are not making any sense.

We are all getting off topic of this thread. This thread is about the Sinner's Prayer.

Sorry but that is what it is all about. Priests and humans in general were never happy being told we have it all backwards.

Like I said in relation to the topic.. the Lord's prayer..does it specifically mention seeking salvation in the prayer? No simply because saying the prayer is submitting to the will of God which is salvation in itself, no longer following the will of man. Man has it backwards.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

OK so Jesus expected Nicodemus to be familiar with the term being 'Born Again' not mentioned anywhere in the OT...

Not so...

He was simply getting his attention in a very Jewish way to gain his ear by presenting a concept beyond his comprehension and experience, and He continues to do this speaking of the resurrection in Jn3:13,14

The New Covenant promise of His indwelling presence was never available in the Old Covenant as Jeremiah 31:31f and 32:37f states very clearly. We receive this New Covenant promise when we are born again. It is not at all surprising that Nicodemus knew nothing about it...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Okay. Please post this reply in the appropriate thread (Which is the one below).

Old Testament saints were born again.

This thread topic is about the Sinner's Prayer. Please do not continue to derail this topic. Thank you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry but that is what it is all about. Priests and humans in general were never happy being told we have it all backwards

This has nothing to do with the Sinner's Prayer. If your post does not directly relate to a discussion of the Sinner's Prayer then do not post an off topic discussion here in this thread. Start another thread and then post the link here if you like, but do not continue to talk about a topic that does not deal with the Sinner's Prayer directly.

Thank you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree, the one visable Holy Catholic Church. (Matthew 16:18.)



You have yet to give an exact date of when the Catholic Chuch supposedly apostatized. If it is your belief this happened in the early centuries of its existence, could you explain to me how an entire Church could apostatize, unless every single member of it agreed to do so, and all apostatized at the same point in time? Could you show using the "bible only", the verse or verses that prove it? Again, as I stated above, you have yet to give a date when this is supposed to have happen. So I'll ask once again, could you give me a firm date of when this great historical event took place?



I'll put it to you this way. (with the help of Catholicanswers.cm) As Catholics, we put the Church before the Bible because the Church existed first and compiled the Bible. The authority of the Bible depends on that of the Church. Then we use the Bible to prove the Church; we use it not as an inspired volume, but merely as a historical document. From the Gospels as historical documents we learn that Christ founded a Church, but the authority of the Gospels as inspired writings rests on the word of the Church.


Though collections of sacred writings, varying in extent, existed in the various local Churches of Christendom, the canon or official list of Scripture was only compiled by the Church toward the end of the fourth century—at Hippo in 393, Carthage in 397, whence it was sent to Rome for confirmation in 419. The Bible may be called the notebook of the Church, and she has always claimed to be the guardian, exponent, and interpreter of it. . . .




Real man? sure. Inspired by God? Well, let me ask you this, with the exception of the author of the book of Revelation....St.John, could you show (from the bible alone) where any N.T. writer explicitly claims that he himself is writing at the direct mandate of God?



Have a Blessed day

We all have gotten off topic to the main discussion. This thread is not about Catholicism, but it is about the Sinner's Prayer. If you want to continue to talk about Catholicism, start another thread please. The main topic of discussion is the Sinner's Prayer.

Thank you; And may God bless you.