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Pathologizing Masculinity

redleghunter

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I would like to take care of the children when they grow up. I feel they don't interact with their fathers that much nowadays.
Pretty sad indeed. Some will never know their father.

My friend and his wife are raising their twin grandchildren. The “father” just gave up all rights and their daughter who is a genius can’t get her life together. So the grandparents have custody. I’m seeing that a lot in families we are either in sports with or school. Much less at church but still there.
 
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redleghunter

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That seems like a spurious claim to me.

What statistics can you cite that bear this notion out, that MOST Boys today do not have a fatherly figure in their lives?

Every stat I can find bears out the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

Most Boys indeed do have a fatherly figure in their lives.
Only 23% don't

On a related note, it is a fact that MOST redheads prefer Jazz Music to Classical.
This assertion is unchallengeable, so don't try to conflate the issue with stats and facts.
I think his point was the figure being influential in the raising.
 
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Resha Caner

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Guys, if you start being really honest...

If I'm honest, what? I'll express my feminine side? No, I probably won't. My father encouraged emotional openness - hugging, saying "I love you", etc. I have always been uncomfortable with that. Intellectually I understand there's nothing wrong with such expression. But the honest thing is to understand that some men don't want to express those things - and it's not always due to cultural conditioning.

My parents were shocked to see me express love toward my wife and children. Hey, I've grown. But I'm still very reserved compared to the average.

A strong man will wear a pink shirt and not care what anyone thinks and is ready to defend it if someone ridicules it.

IMO it's just a color. But I get your point. My son is a nurse and endures constant discrimination. When he was in school, he talked about how people openly expressed the opinion that he must be either gay or a pervert. The (female) professors told him he didn't belong. We considered legal action against the school.
 
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redleghunter

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A number of years ago, I was in a barbershop getting a haircut. I don't go to new-fangled unisex "style salons."...I go to barber shops.

Now, African-American barber shops often do women's hair, because a lot of African-American women wear natural styles that are gender-common.

But generally, it's a man's venue.

So I'm sitting in the chair getting my hair cut one Saturday morning. The other men in the barbershop--all adults--are talking about different stuff, mostly sports. Then two teen-aged boys came in and sat down to wait for their haircuts.

I noticed that the discourse of the adult men in the room changed. It was almost as though by an unspoken agreement, the conversation of the adults changed from sports to finishing school, going to college, and getting jobs.
Indeed a time for advice and mentorship.
 
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redleghunter

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there is such a thing as a distinct male nature. In that sense there's no reason that our psyches shouldn't be just as binary as our bodies.
Genesis did say God made them male and female. That was the original design.
 
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fhansen

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Genesis did say God made them male and female. That was the original design.
Yep! And I don't even need Genesis to tell me that! The lines aren't fluid as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Spiritlight

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If I'm honest, what? I'll express my feminine side? No, I probably won't. My father encouraged emotional openness - hugging, saying "I love you", etc. I have always been uncomfortable with that. Intellectually I understand there's nothing wrong with such expression. But the honest thing is to understand that some men don't want to express those things - and it's not always due to cultural conditioning.

My parents were shocked to see me express love toward my
Gendered marketing is partly the cause. Before the 1970’s girls wore light blue as a sign of femininity. Watch this, n the 70’s and 80’s companies worked out that they could sell more products that are exactly the same thing by marketing it differently. Also see how the adults are creating stereotypes based on gender
 
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Paidiske

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In my experience women, especially mothers, were the "core" (center) of family life. Men were the core providers, focusing more on work than on family. An important role of mothers was to point their sons to the (hopefully good) example of their fathers. Sadly this was in the past. Today there are no such roles for either men or women, thus the confusion and uncertainty that plagues our young people, both boys and girls.

The problem is, if you make women the "core" of family life, you're denying them agency to discern and pursue their own vocation. It really was oppressive, and hideously bad.

What I don't really understand is why re-negotiating this has been so traumatic. If my household can do it (wife, happy breadwinner, husband, happy working part time and doing most child-raising and domestic support stuff, neither in crisis about what it means to be a man or a woman), why is each couple working out what's best for their particular family something other people seem to find insurmountable?

The only way that you can make someone do something that he doesn't want to do is to make it desirable and a thing of value for him. The probability of divorce makes marriage hardly desirable at all to anyone anymore, except the social activitists who are fine with marriage, as long as it is completely changed into something else than has existed before throughout Western history. Many young people, especially those who are children of divorce, opt out.

My body, my choice absolves men of the responsibility that reality once opposed on them. It is the get-out-of-marriage-for-free card. The field of sexual pleasure remains wide, wide open, there on the outside.
It is the principle of vice-versa. Women absolve themselves of the responsibility of family by their choice to exercise the option of killing their baby too. Vice versa. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

It is all about the fun now, and men have vase resources of fun available to them, where the option of fun without responsibility is a real option. There is no downside to too much fun in the nanny state. Men are dying from too much fun at higher rates than women, because men's physiology statistically trends to the extremes. What could be a more powerful experience that a drug exponentially stronger than heroin. Only those who experience fun on the extremes can understand.

Yes all authority is oppressive. The patriarchy oppresses, like any system of authority does. Fatherhood is but one potential path among virtually infiinite other paths to go. It takes effort to makes the path of lesser fun to be recognized as the more desirable one. It takes socialization with the goal of fatherhood being the expected option to take, the manly option even. Entire religions and moral codes have been written in order to make patriarchy understood to be the desirable than the fun choices are.
But parameters that guide us into accepting norms, such as fatherhood, are oppressive-to everyone who is expected to submit to them regardless of identity group!

And so, this is what freedom without parameters looks like. Women have been liberated from oppressive patriarchy. Patriarchy has been abandoned as undesirable behavior. Men are exactly as they have been socially engineered to be. This is what God tossing a wrench into the plans of the social engineers, who imagined a world without the world of fathers oppressing their families in marriage. This is what that world looks like.

By freeing women from the patriarchy, men are freed from the patriarchy too. Vice versa is like a law of social physics. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Vice versa.

But there is no social engineering plan that is so dumb that people will not double down on it in response to its failure.

The problem here is, you blame everything on abortion, as if abortion is a constant reality in most relationships. But most relationships will never be confronted with a decision about abortion. People continue to get married at high rates, and then still find that there are difficulties, even (especially) when there is a commitment to raise children together. So what then explains these dynamics when abortion is not a factor?

And I am still, far, far better off today than my grandmothers were. So if this is post-patriarchy (not that it actually is, the patriarchy is alive and kicking) I'll take it over their reality, hands down.

Because such attempts often come from a feminine perspective that doesn't understand men. There does appear to be a crisis of sorts among American boys, and to say it's unfair to women to investigate that crisis seems to me to miss the point.

Don't women and men need to work on this together? But I don't think anyone suggested that it's unfair to women to have this discussion or to investigate any crisis. Sounds like a necessary part of working together to build a better future.

With that said, the point may not always be expressed well, so let me give it a go.

The trend in education has been, for a long time, that women dominate teaching. There are multiple studies that show the result is to create classroom environments where girls thrive and boys don't. One such study from many years back is Christina Hoff Somers' The War Against Boys. Since there is also a strong correlation that those who succeed in school succeed after school, that is troubling. IIRC there are also studies showing declining rates of boys going on to college, graduating, placing in the professional work force, etc.

I recall one particular situation where boys who were caught fighting in school were forced to sit in chairs, face each other, hold hands, and share their feelings. The result was an increase in violence, not a decrease. Guys (and often mothers of boys) seem to get why that is an obvious outcome.

So, back to the "tough" thing. Tough is a pretty ambiguous word, but there is good data to indicate things like the average male is stronger and faster than the average female. That's simply the way it is. I do, however, understand your concern with such things. Too often the statistics are misunderstood. Further, they are often interpreted as a value judgement (which was your reaction). Those statistics are taken as: All men are stronger than me and better than me.

That's not what the statistics say. I use tennis as an example. The top female tennis player in the world could beat me without breaking a sweat. That's because neither of us are average. She's an above average tennis player and I'm below average. Statistics do not apply to individuals.

Second, whether strong men are good or bad is a value judgement. It's a cultural thing. I happen to think physical strength is a good thing. But that doesn't lead me to conclude men are better than women. It is true, though, that in some cultures that is the unfortunate result.

Finally, there are areas where women test higher than men. That's the way it is. It doesn't make me feel inferior. Nor do I think it's a good idea to judge individuals based on the averages. In fact, it's improper math. If I'm applying for a job, a scholarship, whatever, the individual needs to be judged on his or her individual capabilities.

So, bottom line, in many areas that people think of as "tough" men test higher. Not all areas, but many. That's the way it is. It would be nice, though, if we could get past being offended by that and move to helping boys who are failing.

Your point about statistics not applying to individuals is a really good one, and I agree. The problem is that statistical averages feed into stereotypes, which then feed into negative treatment of women.

The education thing is difficult. I'm aware that there are particular difficulties for boys/men. But there are also (still) particular difficulties for girls/women. (On another forum I've been following a lengthy discussion on the merits of single-sex vs. co-ed schooling, and how girls tend to do better when there aren't boys in the classroom to dominate discussion, for example).

I'm not sure that blaming it all on a preponderance of women teachers is the right answer.

One thing I observe - as the parent of a child with autism - is that our educational systems tend to be very one-size-fits-all. And while that's very understandable when you're dealing with large cohorts and limited resources, it's not what's going to lead to the best results for every individual child. I'm not by any means an educational or pedagogical expert, though, so I don't pretend to have all the answers.

More money might allow smaller classes and more specialised approaches? Is that something our society could sustain, though? Perhaps we ought to prioritise it?

(Oh, and in response to immediately preceding posts, I don't in any way believe in distinctly male and female souls, psyches, etc. We're biologically different, but underneath that, we're all just human).
 
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Silmarien

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If you look into the definition masculinity, is normally meant as an adjective to describe certain traits in men that seem more robust or "tough", so I wouldn't necessarily say its misogyny just more so a trait that characterizes certain aspects of the male. personally I just do see how associating the male with masculinity can be seen as misogyny, considering there is nothing in the definition that puts any negative bias towards women.

I think this ties into the problem with defining "objective masculinity," since there's no set rules concerning how to determine what sorts of behaviors are "robust" or "tough." In the present, a boy playing football might be the epitome of what the culture considers masculine behavior, whereas several centuries ago it might have been ballet. How we code things as masculine or non-masculine behavior changes, and quite drastically.

Think you picked fashion to define man roles.

I do associate things like "boys should wear blue and girls should wear pink" with the idea of traditional masculinity and feminity. You are the one claiming that something called "objective masculinity" exists, and yet you refuse to specify what it is.
 
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Resha Caner

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... why is each couple working out what's best for their particular family something other people seem to find insurmountable?

I'm OK with that. There were 2 stay-at-home dads at my kids' school when they were young, and as far as I know everyone was OK with it. It was even a Christian parochial school associated with a conservative church tradition. That's what's funny about it. The stereotype is things like that don't happen and aren't accepted in such places. Maybe the problem doesn't lie where stereotypes tell us it lies.

My problem is that when you say, "what's best for the family" I sense a subtext of "what's best for each individual irrespective of family needs." Why? Because of what you wrote before that:

The problem is, if you make women the "core" of family life, you're denying them agency to discern and pursue their own vocation. It really was oppressive, and hideously bad.

IMO this is all backwards. If you decide to have a family, you've made commitments that impinge on your vocational choices. And that applies to both the father and the mother. Maybe it's my background. I grew up in a family that began as hired hands on farms. The women worked just as hard as the men. The idea of "vocation" or "career" was nonexistent. You worked to survive and the entire family pitched in. My mother started driving a tractor before she could reach the pedals.

The idea of work as fulfillment I get. The idea of career as fulfillment - not so much.

When I was in college I faced an interesting dilemma. I was dating a girl who was super smart. It forced me to face my own biases - to admit she was smarter than me when I had assumed she wasn't just because she was female. She then indicated she had no intention of being a stay-at-home mom. Truth is, she probably had more income potential than I did ... and I could digress on that interesting tidbit but I don't want to stray too far afield. The point is, I didn't want to stay home either. So we faced a choice: 1) Don't have kids, 2) Don't get married. We didn't get married.

What I've noticed since is that very few people are willing to make those kinds of choices. They delude themselves into thinking not only that they can have it all, but that they deserve it all.

Don't women and men need to work on this together? But I don't think anyone suggested that it's unfair to women to have this discussion or to investigate any crisis. Sounds like a necessary part of working together to build a better future.

Sure, but women need to seriously consider their role in such a venture. I'm not the type who insists on always being at the head of the line. So, if I don't feel qualified for a job, I gladly step aside for those who are.

Your point about statistics not applying to individuals is a really good one, and I agree. The problem is that statistical averages feed into stereotypes, which then feed into negative treatment of women.

They do, but they shouldn't.

The education thing is difficult. I'm aware that there are particular difficulties for boys/men. But there are also (still) particular difficulties for girls/women. (On another forum I've been following a lengthy discussion on the merits of single-sex vs. co-ed schooling, and how girls tend to do better when there aren't boys in the classroom to dominate discussion, for example).

I totally agree. As my kids transitioned from a parochial to a public school, we found ourselves fighting a constant stream of such things. Out of shear weariness we eventually gave up. As a result, my youngest was in a mandated co-ed sex class (a code word for social propaganda). Sadly, and yet also thankfully, I was told it just degenerated into a lot of crude jokes and embarrassed giggling that didn't accomplish anything.

I'm not sure that blaming it all on a preponderance of women teachers is the right answer.

Well, "blame" implies I think those teachers have an evil agenda. I don't. It's an outgrowth of who they are. And if we're going to preach diversity, then we need to live it. We've had "diversity" training at work that amounts to telling middle-class white males they don't matter. I have to listen to a stream of information about all kinds of gender and cultural issues that never once reference my gender or culture.

But my experience is more than anecdotal. My focus for my history M.A. was an intersection of education and church history. I've done a lot of study into how ethnicity, religious faith, etc. is expressed in education.

To wrap up, the evidence is overwhelming that education has a feminine bent to it. But if there is "blame" to be had for that, it's with men. One of the driving forces behind the preponderance of female teachers was cheap, controlling school administrators of the past (exclusively male) who intentionally pursued female teachers because they thought they could pay them less and control them more than male teachers.

One thing I observe - as the parent of a child with autism - is that our educational systems tend to be very one-size-fits-all. And while that's very understandable when you're dealing with large cohorts and limited resources, it's not what's going to lead to the best results for every individual child. I'm not by any means an educational or pedagogical expert, though, so I don't pretend to have all the answers.

I feel your pain there - not autism specifically, but I've dealt with similar things.
 
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RDKirk

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I think this ties into the problem with defining "objective masculinity," since there's no set rules concerning how to determine what sorts of behaviors are "robust" or "tough." In the present, a boy playing football might be the epitome of what the culture considers masculine behavior, whereas several centuries ago it might have been ballet. How we code things as masculine or non-masculine behavior changes, and quite drastically.



I do associate things like "boys should wear blue and girls should wear pink" with the idea of traditional masculinity and feminity. You are the one claiming that something called "objective masculinity" exists, and yet you refuse to specify what it is.

But you're only dealing with superficial stereotypes rather than the core of how the brain that was bathed in testosterone in the womb actually works differently from the brain that was not.

A man in 1597 Vienna comforting a dying friend fatally run through with a sword: "Courage man, the hurt is not much!"

A soldier in 2019 Afghanistan comforting a dying friend fatally shot with a gun, "It'll be alright, bro. It's not that bad."

And the interesting thing: That's exactly what the dying man prefers to hear, even if he knows it's not true.

And that's not a constraint of local culture. You'll find that through time and around the globe.
 
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Spiritlight

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Genesis did say God made them male and female. That was the original design.
Sadly people mix up biological sex with gender. Gender is a societal construct. These days we define what is male and female gender by the popular definition of those traits at the time according to societal beliefs. For a man to caution another man about how to act as one he will base his understanding on the meanings he got from TV marketing and societal popular beliefs of the time. Paul’s instruction on not appearing feminine as a man was based on Jewish understanding and fashion at the time and it has to be understood that way and is not interchangeable with what’s in vogue this week in 2019. Unfortunately many men feel self conscious about these things and get a feeling of guilt if they do things women do like go to a hair salon. What I am trying to explain is how futile and dangerous it is to be trapped in defining what it is to be a man by popular culture. Eg beards right now.
 
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Silmarien

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But you're only dealing with superficial stereotypes rather than the core of how the brain that was bathed in testosterone in the womb actually works differently from the brain that was not.

A man in 1597 Vienna comforting a dying friend fatally run through with a sword: "Courage man, the hurt is not much!"

A soldier in 2019 Afghanistan comforting a dying friend fatally shot with a gun, "It'll be alright, bro. It's not that bad."

And the interesting thing: That's exactly what the dying man prefers to hear, even if he knows it's not true.

I don't see how this is inherently gendered, though. Would a woman in 1597 dying in childbirth and one dying in 2019 not also want to hear that it's not that bad and is actually going to be alright?

I am open to the idea that there are psychological differences between men and women, but if they exist, they're tendencies rather than universals. Are we okay with people varying from the norm? If not, why? Are we okay with women acting more traditionally masculine but not okay with men acting more traditionally feminine? If not, why?

(I think this depends upon cultural considerations. I pay the most attention to conservative Catholic philosophical circles, where I think a woman who presents in a traditionally masculine manner can win respect without any problem, but if men are perceived as too feminine, it's a catastrophe. That's an interesting dynamic, and one that I think goes back to the Platonic idea that the masculine virtues are higher than the feminine ones, so that it's acceptable and perhaps even encouraged for a woman to exhibit masculine virtues, but the opposite is not true.)
 
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SolomonVII

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The problem here is, you blame everything on abortion, as if abortion is a constant reality in most relationships.
That is a simplistic reduction of my argument. I find that problematic, but not unexpected.
Either way, not something that grabs my interest.
 
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redleghunter

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I do associate things like "boys should wear blue and girls should wear pink" with the idea of traditional masculinity and feminity. You are the one claiming that something called "objective masculinity" exists, and yet you refuse to specify what it is.
As the old sage said:

“Don’t be a great man, just be a man.”

And

“It’s nice to be good, but it’s good to be nice.”
 
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SolomonVII

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Yep! And I don't even need Genesis to tell me that! The lines aren't fluid as far as I'm concerned.
Virtually any three year old wouldn't need Genesis to tell them that either.
 
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Silmarien

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As the old sage said:

“Don’t be a great man, just be a man.”

And

“It’s nice to be good, but it’s good to be nice.”

You're doing wonders for your case that objective masculinity exists.
 
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redleghunter

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You're doing wonders for your case that objective masculinity exists.
You are doing the same from the post modern understanding of what people should be like.

God made them male and female. For objective traits start there and not long after this man and woman decided elsewise.
 
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