Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

People claim things that are wrong even when the translation is perfect in comparison to the original.

You don't know of any, nor have any, translation that is perfect in comparison to the original.
No, not even as close as simple word studies in Hebrew and Greek, which by the way, reveal the weaknesses and errors in the translations you use(and everybody uses, in English, as far as I know).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.... It's not the translation. It's people not studying to show themselves approved. Especially in todays world where all the info is at our fingertips.

A gifted pastor teacher will teach his students how to prove him wrong if he is wrong. Most "teachers" nowadays teach to prove themselves right.

This is very commonly a problem, yes. No one generally seems to want to be like the Bereans, testing everything BEFORE believing it or accepting it.

 

[Der Alte]

The line of questioning came up , I believe, because you opposed someone who said plainly that divine revelation (in line with all Scripture, btw, if he didn't say that), is better source
than any human writings of men that are opposed to Scripture,
and also a better source than any writings that are not divinely inspired.

Making the same claims over and over and over does not make them true. Maybe you tell us what these divinely revealed scripture say?

יברכך יהוה וישׁמרך׃
יאר יהוה פניו אליך ויחנך׃
ישׂא יהוה פניו אליך וישׂם לך שׁלום׃

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Making the same claims over and over and over does not make them true.

You never claimed any of your sourcesare divinely inspired, (except Scripture as a source, of course)
and the ones you did post were not divinely inspired,
so what's not true about that ?

 

[Gr8Grace]

You don't know of any, nor have any, translation that is perfect in comparison to the original.
No, not even as close as simple word studies in Hebrew and Greek, which by the way, reveal the weaknesses and errors in the translations you use(and everybody uses, in English, as far as I know).

Beginning to go off the deep end here.

I know the weakness and errors of many translation's................because I have STUDIED it.

It's not the translations...................It is believers lack of study.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I know the weakness and errors of many translation's................because I have STUDIED it.

That's the point then, isn't it? You KNOW (some of) the weakness and errors?

Thus the original, and the simple word studies that are true,
are better and more accurate in meaning than the ones with errors, right ? Less errors, less weaknesses from errors.

 

[Gr8Grace]

That's the point then, isn't it? You KNOW (some of) the weakness and errors?

Thus the original, and the simple word studies that are true,
are better and more accurate in meaning than the ones with errors, right ? Less errors, less weaknesses from errors.

SO what's your point?

It seems to me you are saying you have "revelation" and I am saying it takes hard work,study and discipline to know the mind of Christ after salvation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

SO what's your point?

It seems to me you are saying you have "revelation" and I am saying it takes hard work,study and discipline to know the mind of Christ after salvation.

No, sorry if that's what came across. I said, and repeated , the English translations have known(to you and me and others) errors in them.

The originals are obviously better, and those that are in Hebrew and Aramaic (some question this sometimes) and Greek are closer to the originals than the English translations, so they are 'better.

Yahweh , by "revelation" reveals salvation to little children, and also everything related to salvation, as Jesus Praises ABBA FATHER FOR SO DOING, as this is HIS GOOD PLEASURE... (so little children receive revelation of salvation, just as Simon barjona did).

How much "hard work, study, and discipline" helps
is up to the Father,
(He Who Gives Growth),
it is not up to man.
(Remembering that the scribes and pharisees 'knew' SCRIPTURE better than anyone today, probably, having memorized it in the original and studied it and debated it and taught it daily, I think.... yet they sought, in spite of all their "hard work, study, and discipline" ,
to kill Jesus ! )

 

[Gr8Grace]

No, sorry if that's what came across. I said, and repeated , the English translations have known(to you and me and others) errors in them.

The originals are obviously better, and those that are in Hebrew and Aramaic (some question this sometimes) and Greek are closer to the originals than the English translations, so they are 'better.

Yahweh , by "revelation" reveals salvation to little children, and also everything related to salvation, as Jesus Praises ABBA FATHER FOR SO DOING, as this is HIS GOOD PLEASURE... (so little children receive revelation of salvation, just as Simon barjona did).

How much "hard work, study, and discipline" helps
is up to the Father,
(He Who Gives Growth),
it is not up to man.
(Remembering that the scribes and pharisees 'knew' SCRIPTURE better than anyone today, probably, having memorized it in the original and studied it and debated it and taught it daily, I think.... yet they sought, in spite of all their "hard work, study, and discipline" ,
to kill Jesus ! )

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Gr8Grace]

... Is this supposed to prove that the eternal consequence is conscious torture, though?

No. But it supports eternal torment. Where do you get torture? What verse?

Because your logic here makes just as much sense for literal eternal death, in which there is no hope of life ever again.

That is my logic. And I believe it is biblical.

The wicked are resurrected for eternal death, to pay the eternal wages Christ paid for them. Eternal torment, because the wages paid by Christ were eternal.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No. But it supports eternal torment. Where do you get torture? What verse?



That is my logic. And I believe it is biblical.

The wicked are resurrected for eternal death, to pay the eternal wages Christ paid for them. Eternal torment, because the wages paid by Christ were eternal.

footnote:
it takes a while, but if there's time some day/ week,

lok up every mention, every occurrence,
of
words that include: eternal, forever, for ever, everlasting, and so on, maybe even "without end", in the Bible. (any English Bible - I don't know if this works with the other languages or not, and haven't tried) ....

Just looking in English Bibles, without 'trying', (I wasn't 'studying' this topic at the time), just 'noticing' where those words were used and
how, all through Scripture, Genesis to Revelation,
there are some interesting (to me) things that became apparent,
with no strain...

Just through reading and loving God's Word, through and through,
and by His Grace.

 

[Residential Bob]

Before I begin I want to say that I am in no way one of those people who believe in annihilation to please my flesh or rely on my own understanding to make myself feel better. Sure you can use God's character as an argument, but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.

I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.

Here is the biblical evidence:

Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."

Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"

Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"

These are good passages. The wicked perish; they don't burn in eternal torment. What would God's purpose be for such punishment?

The word hell is not in the Old Testament, and only under Hellenistic influence did any of the tribes begin referring to burning piles of trash as hell.

You know what the Bible calls the towering inferno that rendered the temple a pile of ash, brought closure to the Mosaic tradition, and blotted out Judea's identity from the face of the earth? It calls it a fiery furnace, a lake of fire.

 

[SarahsKnight]

The wicked are resurrected for eternal death, to pay the eternal wages Christ paid for them. Eternal torment, because the wages paid by Christ were eternal.

Eternal death is not eternal torment, not in any rational sense. It's amazing that ECT proponents often tell us conditionalists that we're the ones twisting words around to suit our theology. There is no such thing as an eternal death that goes on forever without ever actually being dead, which is what the traditional ECT position necessitates: that those in hell are forever being destroyed but never fully destroyed, and that souls actually live forever in hell just like they do in heaven, just "spiritually dead" (which is a bunch of nonsense we made up that has litttle to no basis in the Bible).

 

[SarahsKnight]

Sorry, accidental double post.

 

[SarahsKnight]

These are good passages. The wicked perish; they don't burn in eternal torment. What would God's purpose be for such punishment?

Somewhere along the way we chose to give words like perish convoluted meanings, though, I guess; anything to keep that congregation in check and the collection plates filled.

 

[Residential Bob]

Somewhere along the way we chose to give words like perish convoluted meanings, though, I guess; anything to keep that congregation in check and the collection plates filled.

So much of what traditional Christianity teaches is added to the Scriptures.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So much of what traditional Christianity teaches is added to the Scriptures.

Today, that's the DEFINITION of tradition, isn't it ?
"added" AND "opposed to" ? This too?

 

[Residential Bob]

Today, that's the DEFINITION of tradition, isn't it ?
"added" AND "opposed to" ? This too?

Nothing wrong with tradition - Christmas trees, Easter baskets, etc. They don't detract from our observance of Christ's birth or resurrection.

When tradition teaches contrary to the Scriptures, though, that can be a problem.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nothing wrong with tradition - Christmas trees, Easter baskets, etc. They don't detract from our observance of Christ's birth or resurrection.

When tradition teaches contrary to the Scriptures, though, that can be a problem.

For (or see already present) other threads then. (that expose those things)
You just contradicted yourself .
Tradition(sinful, not instructed by Yahweh, Yeshua or the Apostles or the Word) teaches that things that are contrary to Scripture (as you listed) are okay, and changes the meaning of Scripture or of the traditions to make them 'okay' even if it is idolatry or other sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So much of what traditional Christianity teaches is added to the Scriptures.

p.s., yes, like the things you mentioned, all "added" and opposed also, to Scripture.