How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[redleghunter]

Genesis 6:3 shows that God does grow weary from contending with the human, and has deemed that 120 years is the limit, but He does keep working to bring all things together for good for those who love Him ("Love always endures, always perseveres, always hopes"). As long as the body is living, there is an opportunity for repentance, and that is the chance that hope seizes.

Getting closer to addressing the OP.

How does one as dead in sin and by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2) get there?

 

[redleghunter]

You did not receive what I posted, likewise. Why?

Some do, some don't. < shrugs > Exactly as God Says.

Understand your position. For the some do is their nature or disposition different than the some don’t?

 

[redleghunter]

There is no evidence in scripture that suggests the human nature is inherently different after the fall of Adam than before it (otherwise, how was it possible for Adam to have committed sin? .. of course, he had the same potential to sin as we do).

Again this is not a thread on original sin. However, one just needs to look at Genesis 3 to refute this. They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So yes that at the very least is what’s different than before the fall.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Understand your position. For the some do is their nature or disposition different than the some don’t?

God's Word says some (multitudes?),
are profane or perverse from birth. He says He Hates those whose hearts are full of perversion.
(with sharp differences, as He distinguishes and declares in His Word, from those whose hearts are .....
let's say 'right',
like in the Psalms I think, for now. There's more throughout Scripture)

Subject to testing and proving seen in God's Word.

 

[redleghunter]

The fallen state is described as dead, asleep, lost. The image of God is still alive but dimmed, ignored. The primary aspect of the state known as Original Sin is actually, simply, separation from God. That separation is what our death consists of; it's more than enough to kill us and cause sin; we don't inherit a new nature. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5. "With man this is impossible but all with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26

So God appeals to that created nature inside; He calls and draws us, without force. He wants us to learn of our need for Him in this relatively godless world where man's will reigns; He wants us to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness after tasting of sin and evil here, and He reconciles with us, establishing cooperation between Himself and ourselves. But even at that He never determines our choices. We can always say "no" to His offer of salvation, remaining in or turning back to our sin.

That was very good explaining some background but did not address the OP.

I understand your position is we can reject the Gospel or accept it.


The question to your view is why some accept and some reject given we all are dead and children of wrath. If your view is we all come with equal standing before God then why do some choose yes and others reject?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That was very good explaining some background but did not address the OP.
I understand your position is we can reject the Gospel or accept it.
The question to your view is why some accept and some reject given we all are dead and children of wrath. If your view is we all come with equal standing before God then why do some choose yes and others reject?

Perhaps the question is not to be questioned/ answered/ none of our business ? >>
like this one ??
>>From Luke 13
MSG
A bystander said, “Master, will only a few be saved?” He said, “Whether few or many is none of your business.

Put your mind on your life with God. The way to life—to God!—is vigorous and requires your total attention. A lot of you are going to assume that you’ll sit down to God’s salvation banquet just because you’ve been hanging around the neighborhood all your lives. Well, one day you’re going to be banging on the door, wanting to get in, but you’ll find the door locked and the Master saying, ‘Sorry, you’re not on my guest list.’

 

[fhansen]

That was very good explaining some background but did not address the OP.

I understand your position is we can reject the Gospel or accept it.


The question to your view is why some accept and some reject given we all are dead and children of wrath. If your view is we all come with equal standing before God then why do some choose yes and others reject?

My position is that while we can't raise ourselves, or awkaen ourselves, or find ourselves, we can always refuse. And that's a matter of the will, as it was for Adam to begin with. God provides all the fodder, the reason, the sufficient grace, to turn back to Him, but ultimately still allows us to refuse. Grace is resistible. Why one chooses life and goodness and love-why one chooses God-and another remains in his pride and selfishness and sin, is beyond our abilities to discern-it's up to the individual in any case. We can't possibly be saved without Him but we can still refuse to be saved

 

[redleghunter]

Some recapture that relationship and some do not.

Why?

 

[redleghunter]

My position is that while we can't raise ourselves, or awkaen ourselves, or find ourselves, we can always refuse. And that's a matter of the will, as it was for Adam to begin with. God provides all the fodder, the reason, the sufficient grace, to turn back to Him, but ultimately still allows us to refuse. Grace is resistible. Why one chooses life and goodness and love-why one chooses God-and another remains in his pride and selfishness and sin, is beyond our abilities to discern-it's up to the individual in any case. We can't possibly be saved without Him but we can still refuse to be saved

If it is beyond our abilities to discern then why are you so confident Grace can be rejected?

 

[redleghunter]

Perhaps the question is not to be questioned/ answered/ none of our business ? >>
like this one ??
>>From Luke 13
MSG
A bystander said, “Master, will only a few be saved?” He said, “Whether few or many is none of your business.

Put your mind on your life with God. The way to life—to God!—is vigorous and requires your total attention. A lot of you are going to assume that you’ll sit down to God’s salvation banquet just because you’ve been hanging around the neighborhood all your lives. Well, one day you’re going to be banging on the door, wanting to get in, but you’ll find the door locked and the Master saying, ‘Sorry, you’re not on my guest list.’

Well you are right only God knows His sheep. And no can snatch them from His Hand.

 

[redleghunter]

@yeshuaslavejeff its right here:

John 10:27-30
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.”

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

To quote Luther's explanation of the third article of the Apostles's creed:

Of Sanctification.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?

Answer.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

 

[Tree of Life]

I believe even Prevenient Grace theory has unanswered questions such as why some awakened hearts accept and why some reject?

I have not heard a satisfactory answer to that.

I believe this is difficult for Wesleyans and Arminians to answer. Some might chalk it up the mystery in the same way that Calvinists would chalk up God's choice in election to mystery. I often pose this question to Arminian friends: "Why did we choose Jesus and another didn't? Are we smarter, more honest, more virtuous, etc?" I've yet to hear a good answer.

 

[St_Worm2]

...children are born being obedient, and it is only when they become disobedient to the commandment of righteousness that sin has taken them captive and then they need to be born again. The problem is that grown-ups are by and large, already spiritually dead (1 John 5:19), and so they are the children of wrath that are putting their children to death by forming them into their image (That is how death spreads to all, because all come to do sin).

Hi Serving Zion, why do, "ALL come to do sin", if God made each one of us upright/obedient/righteous/good If we are all truly born that way, then surely at least 50% of us should have been able to make it to Glory on our own/without needing a Savior, but no one has, not even one of us .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12.

How can that be

Also, what does "by nature" refer to in the passage below concerning the "children of wrath"?

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
​

Thanks!

--David

Romans 3
23 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.​

.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Why?

Choice.

 

[fhansen]

If it is beyond our abilities to discern then why are you so confident Grace can be rejected?

It's beyond our abilities to know why one decides one way while one decides another. It's simply crucial to know that man's will is involved, to whatever degree, however small. Otherwise God is directly responsible for all evil, including the evil of predestining some people to eternal torment for no reason other than His divine whim.

 

[redleghunter]

Choice.

If all receive a prevenient grace and some reject it and some accept it what differs in the two?

 

[redleghunter]

It's beyond our abilities to know why one decides one way while one decides another. It's simply crucial to know that man's will is involved, to whatever degree, however small. Otherwise God is directly responsible for all evil, including the evil of predestining some people to eternal torment for no reason other than His divine whim.

There is a leap of concept you make. We do freely choose God. I believe I made that clear in the OP.

I think I made the point we are all in a fallen state and by nature children of wrath. Regardless if you believe we all have a spark of Imago Dei we are in the same separated state. Yet for some that spark becomes a flame and for some they remain children of wrath.

I also affirmed in the OP that the Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16). Yet for all who hear not all believe. What makes the believers different responding to the Gospel? I think your previous posts affirm it is the Holy Spirit by God’s Grace which would affirm both apostolic teachings and the Council of Orange.

Even by your position there is need for some further explanation. Because if the Holy Spirit is responsible for the Grace you received, who exactly is responsible for not receiving God’s Grace?

 

[redleghunter]

Otherwise God is directly responsible for all evil, including the evil of predestining some people to eternal torment for no reason other than His divine whim.

Again this is a “problem” for your view as well. Because some are more inclined to receive than others.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If all receive a prevenient grace and some reject it and some accept it what differs in the two?

Look at it this way. If someone has three children and raises them as equals and only two out of the three loves that parent and one of those children does not, is it the choice of the parent that the child chose not love them. No. Is it the parent who chose only to love two and not three? No. Then why did the 3rd child reject their parent? It was their choice and the reasons can be endless.