How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[Serving Zion]

If we stick with the OP which view best represents your view as I can’t figure it out with your posts. I posted three views prevalent in Christian history.

I don't know why you feel a need to do that. I don't really like being branded as "one of those Christians" or "one of those Christians" - I just am who I am.

Sorry I missed this.

With the above is your view the Holy Spirit initiates the call to the Gospel and as such quickens us and we with this repent and accept Christ our Savior and Lord?

If so then why does this not happen for all?

First, it is important to recognise who Christ is. He is the eternal "I AM" - who was with God in the beginning, Himself being God. He is the true light (in Him is there is no darkness at all), and "if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another" - but "where do warring and strife come from?" (obviously, from those who do not walk in the light - they are cut off from Christ).

So that is who Christ is. John writes "In Him is life, and the life is the light of man". John also writes that there is two types of people: one who comes toward the light so it can be seen that they have acted with good conscience in God's sight, the other hates the light and will refuse to go near it - because they fear that their deeds will be exposed.

You can find people of those two different natures within and outside of the Christian religion - so that shows that there are people who are living with good conscience outside of the knowledge of Christian scripture, just as there are people who are acting deceitfully while also having some belief system that they claim biblical scripture to support.

Therefore, Jesus as the only-begotten embodiment of that who is Christ - the eternal "I AM" says "I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold (ie: the "pen" or "container" that was called Judaism in His time). He says this specifically to show that His people do not belong to Him because of their religious knowledge, but because of their disposition to the light. They are those of John 3:21.

Knowledge therefore is a different thing. It depends upon a person encountering information - and the information of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, today called "Christianity", is found in the writings of those who have known "I AM" throughout the ages, "The Bible".

There are logistical challenges for Him in terms of equipping His "other sheep" with that information - things such as lawful persecution, translation errors and delusions etc, that in various ways may block those ones from having access to, or may deflect their interest in the information of the scriptures.

For example, there are many wolves in sheep's clothing that present the gospel according to an antichrist spirit (1 John 4:1), and therefore it does not appear to be a thing of the light. If one of His "other sheep" encounter only that view of the bible, and do not ever have a chance to encounter the view of the bible that they can recognise as being of their Lord, then does He have any right to convict them for having rejected the gospel? .. Justice would appear to be perverted if that were the case, so therefore there is an argument in their favour, that they have not been given a fair opportunity to hear the message of Jesus Christ.

However, that doesn't change the reality of life: that "it is appointed for man once to die and then to face judgement" and "all must appear before the judgement seat of Christ to answer for the things done in the body, whether good or bad".

So, for His people who are in fact remaining in the spirit of Christ, whether by matter of provision being isolated from the knowledge of Him (John 10:16), if He is able to (Matthew 9:37), He is eager to lead them to be introduced to the knowledge of The Gospel that will equip them to be workers that produce 30, 60 or 100 times what was sown. That is our task as missionaries - to serve Him in the mission, of making disciples. Introducing them to the knowledge of who He is, so that they can come to know Him before that fateful day.

Nevertheless, if they do happen to go all through their life without having access to the information that grows into that kind of faith, they, like all of us, must still "appear at the judgement seat of Christ Jesus to give an answer for the things they have done in their body - whether good or bad".. and because they have kept a good conscience, never being afraid of the light, they will be able to withstand all accusations in that day, to receive the blessing that pertains to them (see Matthew 25:34-36).

Beliefs are only useful if they produce good fruits, but as you can see when you look around, that not everyone who has Christian beliefs are producing fruits worthy of The Kingdom : "for I will say 'depart from me you cursed ones, into the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels .. I never knew you, and you are a worker of iniquity" Matthew 7:21-23 .. and in likewise manner, He does not say "come, you who are blessed, because you have been baptised".

Life and death, in the spiritual way of speaking of the spiritual rebirth, are entirely about John 3:20-21 - whether a person has good conscience and is not concealing or evading any truth - despite that they might be in error.

 

[redleghunter]

Thus the rock(stone) changed to good soil(heart of flesh), in line with all your posted Scripture.

Something also , written, about "plowing up our backs" ....

Yet the parable does not address changing soil. If we were to be consistent then the good soil equals the heart of flesh. Which means God did indeed prepare the soil to receive before scattering the seed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yet the parable does not address changing soil. If we were to be consistent then the good soil equals the heart of flesh. Which means God did indeed prepare the soil to receive before scattering the seed.

How many parables did Jesus use ?
Why "before" scattering the seed ?
Why not, "after someone prayed" for them ?

 

[redleghunter]

John 1:11-13 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

11
He came to his own homeland,
yet his own people did not receive him.

12 But to as many as did receive him,

to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God,

13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

Ok we have no physical impulse nor human intention to receive Christ but it is the will of God we become children of God.

Why didn’t you just say that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ok we have no physical impulse nor human intention to receive Christ but it is the will of God we become children of God.

Why didn’t you just say that.

The impulse and the intention to seek God is a gift of God, sheer grace!, whenever it is given (or offered) ...

We are to speak as Yahweh directs, all the time. Not to support some one doctrine or another which separates people .

 

[redleghunter]

How many parables did Jesus use ?
Why "before" scattering the seed ?
Why not, "after someone prayed" for them ?

That would be adding to the text. However when one becomes good soil is obviously by God’s will and purpose.

I often pray for unbelievers and ask God to remove their heart of stone with a heart of flesh according to His will and purpose for His Glory Alone.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That would be adding to the text. However when one becomes good soil is obviously by God’s will and purpose.

I often pray for unbelievers and ask God to remove their heart of stone with a heart of flesh according to His will and purpose for His Glory Alone.

Reading all Scripture and speaking as Yahweh directs is always right.
More than one parable often applies to us daily, or around us.

Just don't 'contradict' God's Word - that's a no-no, you-know

 

[redleghunter]

I don't know why you feel a need to do that. I don't really like being branded as "one of those Christians" or "one of those Christians" - I just am who I am.

First, it is important to recognise who Christ is. He is the eternal "I AM" - who was with God in the beginning, Himself being God. He is the true light (in Him is there is no darkness at all), and "if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another" - but "where do warring and strife come from?" (obviously, from those who do not walk in the light - they are cut off from Christ).

So that is who Christ is. John writes "In Him is life, and the life is the light of man". John also writes that there is two types of people: one who comes toward the light so it can be seen that they have acted with good conscience in God's sight, the other hates the light and will refuse to go near it - because they fear that their deeds will be exposed.

You can find people of those two different natures within and outside of the Christian religion - so that shows that there are people who are living with good conscience outside of the knowledge of Christian scripture, just as there are people who are acting deceitfully while also having some belief system that they claim biblical scripture to support.

Therefore, Jesus as the only-begotten embodiment of that who is Christ - the eternal "I AM" says "I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold (ie: the "pen" or "container" that was called Judaism in His time). He says this specifically to show that His people do not belong to Him because of their religious knowledge, but because of their disposition to the light. They are those of John 3:21.

Knowledge therefore is a different thing. It depends upon a person encountering information - and the information of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, today called "Christianity", is found in the writings of those who have known "I AM" throughout the ages, "The Bible".

There are logistical challenges for Him in terms of equipping His "other sheep" with that information - things such as lawful persecution, translation errors and delusions etc, that in various ways may block those ones from having access to, or may deflect their interest in the information of the scriptures.

For example, there are many wolves in sheep's clothing that present the gospel according to an antichrist spirit (1 John 4:1), and therefore it does not appear to be a thing of the light. If one of His "other sheep" encounter only that view of the bible, and do not ever have a chance to encounter the view of the bible that they can recognise as being of their Lord, then does He have any right to convict them for having rejected the gospel? .. Justice would appear to be perverted if that were the case, so therefore there is an argument in their favour, that they have not been given a fair opportunity to hear the message of Jesus Christ.

However, that doesn't change the reality of life: that "it is appointed for man once to die and then to face judgement" and "all must appear before the judgement seat of Christ to answer for the things done in the body, whether good or bad".

So, for His people who are in fact remaining in the spirit of Christ, whether by matter of provision being isolated from the knowledge of Him (John 10:16), if He is able to (Matthew 9:37), He is eager to lead them to be introduced to the knowledge of The Gospel that will equip them to be workers that produce 30, 60 or 100 times what was sown. That is our task as missionaries - to serve Him in the mission, of making disciples. Introducing them to the knowledge of who He is, so that they can come to know Him before that fateful day.

Nevertheless, if they do happen to go all through their life without having access to the information that grows into that kind of faith, they, like all of us, must still "appear at the judgement seat of Christ Jesus to give an answer for the things they have done in their body - whether good or bad".. and because they have kept a good conscience, never being afraid of the light, they will be able to withstand all accusations in that day, to receive the blessing that pertains to them (see Matthew 25:34-36).

Beliefs are only useful if they produce good fruits, but as you can see when you look around, that not everyone who has Christian beliefs are producing fruits worthy of The Kingdom : "for I will say 'depart from me you cursed ones, into the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels .. I never knew you, and you are a worker of iniquity" Matthew 7:21-23 .. and in likewise manner, He does not say "come, you who are blessed, because you have been baptised".

Life and death, in the spiritual way of speaking of the spiritual rebirth, are entirely about John 3:20-21 - whether a person has good conscience and is not concealing or evading any truth - despite that they might be in error.

Here is the link to the OP if you would like to respond to it:

How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

 

[redleghunter]

The impulse and the intention to seek God is a gift of God, sheer grace!, whenever it is given (or offered) ...

We are to speak as Yahweh directs, all the time. Not to support some one doctrine or another which separates people .

Yet not all receive this. I asked why.

 

[Serving Zion]

Which means God did indeed prepare the soil to receive before scattering the seed.

Genesis 6:3 shows that God does grow weary from contending with the human, and has deemed that 120 years is the limit, but He does keep working to bring all things together for good for those who love Him ("Love always endures, always perseveres, always hopes"). As long as the body is living, there is an opportunity for repentance, and that is the chance that hope seizes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yet not all receive this. I asked why.

You did not receive what I posted, likewise. Why?

Some do, some don't. < shrugs > Exactly as God Says.

 

[Serving Zion]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

You know that those words represent a false doctrine though. I have already shown you that.

There is no evidence in scripture that suggests the human nature is inherently different after the fall of Adam than before it (otherwise, how was it possible for Adam to have committed sin? .. of course, he had the same potential to sin as we do). We are not born cut off from Christ, but just as James 1:13-15 says, we are "lured into sin by our desires, and when sin has grown, it brings forth death". That is why a person needs to be born again.

St. Paul writes in Romans 7:9 that we are spiritually alive until the commandment comes, but sin takes advantage of the commandment, and that is how sin puts us to death.

But children are born being obedient, and it is only when they become disobedient to the commandment of righteousness, that sin has taken them captive and then they need to be born again.

The problem is that grown-ups are by and large, already spiritually dead (1 John 5:19), and so they are the children of wrath that are putting their children to death by forming them into their image (That is how death spreads to all, because all come to do sin).

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

The primary problem in your view, is to assume that we are born that way. But there is no scripture that says that - it is a construct of the antichrist - a false teaching that crept in gradually, and has taken advantage of Christian ignorance.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

It is Christ's work through His Holy Spirit, day by day, that brings us to a conviction of our error so that we can see that we have been wrong, providing an opportunity to repent - and then when we choose to repent, He gains possession of our spirit because we are no longer enslaved to sin and avoiding the light of His Word (as the principle of Romans 6:16).

For example, you have not addressed all that I have written to you, but you have thought that all I have written does not already answer your question - but that's not the truth at all. All I have written to you is giving you what you are asking for, and yet you are not willing to come to me and talk with me - why? It is because you know that in order to have fellowship with me, you need to cut off the false doctrine you have at the root of your belief system: the heresy that blasphemes children when you say that they are born fallen and bearing the image of Satan.

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Being alive is being circumcised in heart - not bearing any of the fruits of wrath but bearing all the grace of God.

According to the catechism of The Catholic Church, a "mortal sin is believed to destroy the life of grace and charity within a person" - and as John the Baptist said in John 3:36 "the one who does not obey the son of God does not see life - but the wrath of God abides on him".

The "sons of disobedience" - they are of the same spirit as the "children of wrath" in Ephesians 2 .. that means that they do not exhibit the grace of God, but they exhibit the nature of the children of wrath - they are exactly of the nature that Adam and Eve became as soon as they did sin - they have been cut off from the knowledge of love, hiding from God because they were afraid that He was going to be angry with them. That's what is in the heart and mind of the children of wrath, because they do not know love. That is also what the doctrine of the antichrist teaches, because the false prophets are cut off from Christ, and they do not know love.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

You need to read post #61 in context of me being a servant to you in your quest for this knowledge, not an enemy. The answer is very clear through that post. For example:

there are people who are living with good conscience outside of the knowledge of Christian scripture, [...] Therefore, Jesus [...] says "I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold [...] He says this specifically to show that His people [...] belong to Him [...] because of their disposition to the light. They are those of John 3:21. [...] Knowledge therefore is a different thing. It depends upon a person encountering information - and the information of the knowledge of Jesus Christ [...] found in the writings of [...] "The Bible" [...] There are logistical challenges for Him in terms of equipping His "other sheep" with that information - things such as lawful persecution, translation errors and delusions etc, that in various ways may block those ones from having access to, or may deflect their interest in the information of the scriptures [...]

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Seriously? .. I wonder how many of those will repent and escape condemnation (ie: Romans 7:9) when they find out about the Sentinelese people.

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

First, it is important to recognise who Christ is. He is the eternal "I AM" - who was with God in the beginning, Himself being God.

.. continued in post #61.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

Only by having first been loved by Him, and having met someone who can show that love to them.

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

It needn't be though. Do you sense that my patience has worn thin in this reply? (I do!). Patience is a fruit of the spirit. Can you look back over my previous posts and see that I did not have such a shortness of that fruit? .. so what has happened that has reduced my love for you this time?

 

[fhansen]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

The fallen state is described as dead, asleep, lost. The image of God is still alive but dimmed, ignored. The primary aspect of the state known as Original Sin is actually, simply, separation from God. That separation is what our death consists of; it's more than enough to kill us and cause sin; we don't inherit a new nature. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5. "With man this is impossible but all with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26

So God appeals to that created nature inside; He calls and draws us, without force. He wants us to learn of our need for Him in this relatively godless world where man's will reigns; He wants us to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness after tasting of sin and evil here, and He reconciles with us, establishing cooperation between Himself and ourselves. But even at that He never determines our choices. We can always say "no" to His offer of salvation, remaining in or turning back to our sin.

 

[redleghunter]

Don't bear false witness please. Reading all Scripture and speaking as Yahweh directs is always right.

Was not bearing false witness. Trying to amalgamate two passages is not exegesis. However we can learn from both passages within context.

But you are right having a systematic approach which considers all Biblical truth is important. That is why some of the best theologians and pastors teach the Scriptures through expository examination. That really help avoid the usual proof text type theology which leans on eisegesis.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

We are made in Gods image according to His likeness. There is a relationship despite sin because we have been connected to Him from the beginning. Some recapture that relationship and some do not. It is not for lack of LOVE on Gods part for we are all His children but lack of LOVE on our part. So for a person who reaches out for the Father through His Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth is doing the most natural act for him or herself. As uninteresting as it seems, it really is a choice on our part.
Blessings

 

[redleghunter]

You know that those words represent a false doctrine though. I have already shown you that.

Frankly I showed you Romans 5 and then you took me on a tour of the Bible trying to disprove Paul.

However even within your view what I posted fits whether one believes in original sin or your view a sinful nature later learned.

So for you take the OP as whenever you think we all become children of wrath by nature and address the questions on choosing.

 

[devin553344]

I think also to respond to the OP: That some people become miserable in life, whether rich or poor, bond or free, etc. And they desire a better life. And when they hear the good message of Christ and Heaven, it appeals to them over their miserable state. And with hope receives the Holy Spirit and fills them with Peace and Love and makes the heart glad. Which happens to be my story

So then God has many ways that men and women turn to Christ. John the Baptist was full of the Holy Spirit from the womb: Luke 1:15

Personally I'm not going to focus on them that reject the good message, I think it's a waste of time. Once they've heard it they know where to find it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...Trying to amalgamate two passages is not exegesis. However we can learn from both passages within context.

But you are right having a systematic approach which considers all Biblical truth is important. That is why some of the best theologians and pastors teach the Scriptures through expository examination. That really help avoid the usual proof text type theology which leans on eisegesis.

(edited my post)....

Yes, as you say, "a systematic approach which considers all Biblical truth" is what I always try to remember.

(in everything, of course, every day)

Perhaps not always 'systematic', (not to mince words), but always in harmony with all of God's Word, yes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Frankly I showed you Romans 5 and then you took me on a tour of the Bible trying to disprove Paul.

However even within your view what I posted fits whether one believes in original sin or your view a sinful nature later learned.

So for you take the OP as whenever you think we all become children of wrath by nature and address the questions on choosing.

I didn't see the previous "tour of the Bible"
but have seen others deny Paul.
When they do that, they have already denied Jesus and denied the Father.

We need to be alert to that deception, always, on this forum.

 

[Serving Zion]

So for you take the OP as whenever you think we all become children of wrath by nature and address the questions on choosing.

Do you know why you think I haven't done that? (You need to humble yourself and love the message I am delivering - stop hating the messenger, because it isn't you who is doing that to me).