The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

[BobRyan]

Incorrect. I do not know you personally. I am sure that you are very nice person.

I simply do not like the false teaching that have corrupted your understanding.

still it would be nice to see you read a Bible text on the topic of this thread - for example Daniel 7 and show that your ideas actually are supported in the Bible no matter how many times you can accuse someone of having "corrupt understanding"

I have in fact responded to your comments of Daniel 7 and I will repeat again for you.

There is NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT in Daniel y.

I have seen your by-faith-alone - statement that ignores every bible fact highlighted on page one of this thread -- I was hoping you would post a Bible fact in support of your speculation.

That is strictly an Ellen G. WHite false doctrine which was once given by Mr. Miller.

That is total nonsense.
1. Page 1 of this thread appeals to no statement from either of those two persons. And we all know it.
2. Miller never claimed any understanding at all about the "Investigative Judgment".

More facts - less creative writing please.

You appear to enjoy "posting your preferences" - which you have the right to do .. but in a debate forum - posting actual Bible fact has the high value and high usefulness. Simply posting speculation and preference is not as useful to others.

Then just use the "IGNORE" option and we will both be happy.

I appreciate your willingness to be so transparent for all of us to see.

Tell you what.…...YOU post ONE Scripture from Daniel 7 that you believe validates your Investigative Judgment and I will be blessed to correctly explain that verses meaning to you.

I have posted a great many of them from Daniel 7 on page one of this thread

Feel free to select one that you believe to be in need of correction. That is how it normally works on these threads.

NO sir. It is you that needs to post the Scriptures that YOU need explained.

??? In find your logic "illusive" at that point.

I am asking you to post in the normal fashion for this debate forum. Is that not clear?

I am the saying that there is NO Investigative Judgment.

True you are. Ignoring every text in the OP and page 1 of this thread - you continue to simply repeat that speculation.

It is then up to YOU to prove YOUR theology.

Which I already did non page 1.

How is this not clear??

You are supposed to respond to the Daniel 7 texts given as proof of the details already laid out on "page 1" - and tell us where you differ.

But ya know what, I am a nice guy so I will help out.

Daniel 7:1...……
"In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying in bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.'

The time of Daniels vision is explained historically.
It was in the 1st year of the rule of Belshazzar.

Thanks for that - is this helping your case?

That means it was in the end of the time that the HEAD of GOLD or Babylon was ruling the world.

the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon -- occurs before the Persian empire destroys Babylon. I think we all knew that.

He was king from 550 B.C. to 539 B.C.

Now as you can plainly see, there is NO Investigation Judgment of Christians in that ONE verse.

There is no claim on Page 1 of this thread that there was an investigative judgment in heaven during the time of Babylon or Persia, or Greece or ....

Please allow your statements to be informed by the texts quoted on page one of this thread.

 

[DaDad]

I see your point but the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, both these little horns arise on different beasts. They obviously represent different nations or perhaps arise at different times.

No, and that's the part YOU have to figure out, 'cause it ain't comin for the commentators! Follow:

Dan. 8:3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the river. It had two horns; and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.

Dan. 8:20 As for the ram which you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.​

Historically, from 46BC - 31BC the Roman Empire had a DUAL Reign consisting of both Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus or Octavian and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony). But Cyrus the Great's Medo/Persian Empire NEVER had a dual reign.

Furthermore, where the liars assert that the purported Alexander's empire was divided between his FOUR Generals, (Ref. Dan. 8:22) HISTORY accounts for FIVE:

· Antipater, Macedonia and Greece, 397 – 319 BC *
· Lysimachus, Thrace, 360 – 281 BC *
· Antigonus, Asia Minor, 382 – 301 BC
· Seleucus, Babylonea, 358 – 281 BC *
· Ptolemy, Egypt, 367 – 283 BC *​

“There were not only three major monarchies -- Macedonia, Seleucia, and Egypt; there were a hundred Greek city-states, of all degrees of independence; there was a maze of alliances and leagues; there were half-Greek states in Epirus, Judea, Pergamum, Byzantium, Bithynia, Cappadocia, Galatia, Bactria; and in the west were Greek Italy and Sicily, torn between aging Carthage and youthful Rome. ...(Alexander) had left not one but several strong men behind him, and none could be content with less than sovereignty. ... After some minor trials at arms which disposed of lesser contenders, they divided the empire into five parts -- Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Seleucus Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1]

[1] Durant, Will, “Story of Civilization: Part I,” Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558​

... so the Ram "interpretation" is false, and the Four Lessor Horns "interpretation" is false.

Perhaps if the "commentators" had obeyed the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9, and waited until the era approximate to 1948, they'd have a chance of getting it correct. But they didn't and the results are a direct reflection.

-- And I don't mean to hijack this Thread, so if you have any additional aspects you'd like to address, please open a "Conversation" or new Topic! (The only problem addressing this in a Topic is that satan's minions do their best to thwart GOD's Word with distractions, diversions, etc.)

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[klutedavid]

No, and that's the part YOU have to figure out, 'cause it ain't comin for the commentators! Follow:

Dan. 8:3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the river. It had two horns; and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last.

Dan. 8:20 As for the ram which you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.​

Historically, from 46BC - 31BC the Roman Empire had a DUAL Reign consisting of both Julius Caesar Octavianus Augustus or Octavian and Marcus Antonius (Marc Antony). But Cyrus the Great's Medo/Persian Empire NEVER had a dual reign.

Furthermore, where the liars assert that the purported Alexander's empire was divided between his FOUR Generals, (Ref. Dan. 8:22) HISTORY accounts for FIVE:

· Antipater, Macedonia and Greece, 397 – 319 BC *
· Lysimachus, Thrace, 360 – 281 BC *
· Antigonus, Asia Minor, 382 – 301 BC
· Seleucus, Babylonea, 358 – 281 BC *
· Ptolemy, Egypt, 367 – 283 BC *​

“There were not only three major monarchies -- Macedonia, Seleucia, and Egypt; there were a hundred Greek city-states, of all degrees of independence; there was a maze of alliances and leagues; there were half-Greek states in Epirus, Judea, Pergamum, Byzantium, Bithynia, Cappadocia, Galatia, Bactria; and in the west were Greek Italy and Sicily, torn between aging Carthage and youthful Rome. ...(Alexander) had left not one but several strong men behind him, and none could be content with less than sovereignty. ... After some minor trials at arms which disposed of lesser contenders, they divided the empire into five parts -- Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Seleucus Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1]

[1] Durant, Will, “Story of Civilization: Part I,” Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558​

... so the Ram "interpretation" is false, and the Four Lessor Horns "interpretation" is false.

Perhaps if the "commentators" had obeyed the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9, and waited until the era approximate to 1948, they'd have a chance of getting it correct. But they didn't and the results are a direct reflection.

-- And I don't mean to hijack this Thread, so if you have any additional aspects you'd like to address, please open a "Conversation" or new Topic! (The only problem addressing this in a Topic is that satan's minions do their best to thwart GOD's Word with distractions, diversions, etc.)

Thanks,
DaDad

The little horns are definitely two distinct horns.

The first little horn does not rule as long as the second little horn. The first little horn rules for a time, times, and half a time. (Daniel 7-25)

The second little horn rules for 2,300 evenings and mornings (Daniel 8:13-14), then the holy place is restored.

That is the proof that the little horns in the book of Daniel, represent two different rulers.

 

[DaDad]

The little horns are definitely two distinct horns.
...

You cite 2 different little horns, with 2 independent citations, which is correct, -- not the same "one" with multiple citations.

No disagreement here! The only issues is whether you can decipher which 2 of the 11 little horns are associated with the 10 Permanent Membership of the Security Council little horns (both present and future), and the 11th United Nations little horn.

Pretty simple,
DaDad

 

[Major1]

still it would be nice to see you read a Bible text on the topic of this thread - for example Daniel 7 and show that your ideas actually are supported in the Bible no matter how many times you can accuse someone of having "corrupt understanding"



I have seen your by-faith-alone - statement that ignores every bible fact highlighted on page one of this thread -- I was hoping you would post a Bible fact in support of your speculation.



That is total nonsense.
1. Page 1 of this thread appeals to no statement from either of those two persons. And we all know it.
2. Miller never claimed any understanding at all about the "Investigative Judgment".

More facts - less creative writing please.

You appear to enjoy "posting your preferences" - which you have the right to do .. but in a debate forum - posting actual Bible fact has the high value and high usefulness. Simply posting speculation and preference is not as useful to others.



I appreciate your willingness to be so transparent for all of us to see.



I have posted a great many of them from Daniel 7 on page one of this thread

Feel free to select one that you believe to be in need of correction. That is how it normally works on these threads.



??? In find your logic "illusive" at that point.

I am asking you to post in the normal fashion for this debate forum. Is that not clear?



True you are. Ignoring every text in the OP and page 1 of this thread - you continue to simply repeat that speculation.



Which I already did non page 1.

How is this not clear??

You are supposed to respond to the Daniel 7 texts given as proof of the details already laid out on "page 1" - and tell us where you differ.

But ya know what, I am a nice guy so I will help out.



Thanks for that - is this helping your case?



the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon -- occurs before the Persian empire destroys Babylon. I think we all knew that.

He was king from 550 B.C. to 539 B.C.



There is no claim on Page 1 of this thread that there was an investigative judgment in heaven during the time of Babylon or Persia, or Greece or ....

Please allow your statements to be informed by the texts quoted on page one of this thread.

Then YOU should post the VERSE in which YOU believe that there is an Investigative Judgment.

I asked you to do just that and YOU refused to do so and insisted that I respond to Daniel 7. I DID EXACTLY AS YOU ASKED.

I will do another for you.

Daniel 7:2...……
"Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea."

The 4 winds that broke violently "upon the GREAT Sea" is the Mediterranean Sea.

I believe that the WINDS speak of AGITATION, PROPAGANDA, PUBLIC OPINION & DISTURBANCE.

The "SEA" also suggests the "MASSES", or MOB, and the peoples of the Gentiles.

Rev. 17:1 & 15...……….
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,".

Verse 15...……………………
"And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.".

The SEA therefore in Daniel 7:2 is the population of the Gentiles throughout the world.

Again we can clearly see that there is NO Investigative Judgment of Christians in this verse.

 

[Major1]

I really think I will stick with what Scripture says, and will pass on your "advice".
Thanks,
DaDad

All I can do is suggest what would be helpful to you.

1 Tim. 4:1-3
"The Holy Spirit tells us in plain words that in the last days some people will turn away from the faith. They will listen to what is said about spirits and follow the teaching about demons. 2 Those who teach this tell it as the truth when they know it is a lie. They do it so much that their own hearts no longer say it is wrong."

 

[Major1]

I see your point but the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, both these little horns arise on different beasts. They obviously represent different nations or perhaps arise at different times.

May I say to you that the "Little Horn" of Daniel 7 is the coming Anti-Christ.

Daniel 7:19-20...……..
"Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates."

The TEN horns grow out of the beast, denoting a LATER development. Growth takes time!

The horns do not grow out of a DEAD beast. These verse suggest ferocity and fierceness.
Rome was hated by all of her captive nations. Rome rejected the Son of God and executed the Son of God.

At the time of the end, 3 of the horns (Nations) will fall before the Little Horn who is the A/C. The A/C will be dominant in his personality, abiloity, propaganda and public appear.

The "Little Horn of Daniel 8 is then ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES of the line of the Seleucidae that took Syria. HE is a picture of the coming A/C that was seen in Daniel 7.

 

[Major1]

Actually some who attend a DEAD church may even be participating in cult church:

2 Timothy 3:5 holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, 7 who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith; 9 but they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.​

Hmmmmm, it seems you defy Scripture:

1 Cor. 14:26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.​

Thanks,
DaDad

1 Cor. 13:8...……..
"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."


Words imply predicting future events, or teaching the truths of religion to men, shall soon be rendered useless.

Though the accurate prophet and the eloquent, persuasive preacher be useful in their day, they shall not be always so; nor shall their gifts fit them for glory; nothing short of the love above described can fit a soul for the kingdom of God.

GOD said that Tongues - shall cease - The miraculous gift of different languages, that soon shall cease, as being unnecessary.

Knowledge - shall vanish away.

That is what the Bible says!

 

[BobRyan]

Then YOU should post the VERSE in which YOU believe that there is an Investigative Judgment.

You keep circling back to insist that I should have posted the OP and what I already posted on page one of this thread.

I am not following your logic in doing that.

I asked you to do just that and YOU refused

On the contrary I keep pointing to the fact that I already did and that normal behavior on CF forums is for the reader to "respond" to the details in the OP.

How is this not stating the obvious?

to do so and insisted that I respond to Daniel 7. I DID EXACTLY AS YOU ASKED.

I asked that you respond to the Daniel 7 texts actually posted on page one. Still waiting.

Instead you posted vs 1 "as if" there was any claim at all on page 1 about Dan 7:1 having the investigative judgment in it which anyone who actually read page one would know.

I will do another for you.

Daniel 7:2...……
"Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea."

The 4 winds that broke violently "upon the GREAT Sea" is the Mediterranean Sea.

I believe that the WINDS speak of AGITATION, PROPAGANDA, PUBLIC OPINION & DISTURBANCE.

The "SEA" also suggests the "MASSES", or MOB, and the peoples of the Gentiles.

Certainly that is all true - but it is also another great example of what we do not find on page one of this thread as a claim that the Investigative Judgment is in Daniel 7 verse 2.

Why not "cut to the chase"?
1. Allow yourself to be informed by the actual texts on page one of this thread.
2. Respond to them where you wish to

 

[Major1]

You keep circling back to insist that I should have posted the OP and what I already posted on page one of this thread.

I am not following your logic in doing that.



On the contrary I keep pointing to the fact that I already did and that normal behavior on CF forums is for the reader to "respond" to the details in the OP.

How is this not stating the obvious?



I asked that you respond to the Daniel 7 texts actually posted on page one. Still waiting.

Instead you posted vs 1 "as if" there was any claim at all on page 1 about Dan 7:1 having the investigative judgment in it which anyone who actually read page one would know.



Certainly that is all true - but it is also another great example of what we do not find on page one of this thread as a claim that the Investigative Judgment is in Daniel 7 verse 2.

Why not "cut to the chase"?
1. Allow yourself to be informed by the actual texts on page one of this thread.
2. Respond to them where you wish to

YOU asked me...………..
"Why not "cut to the chase"?

Because I DO NOT KNOW what verse in Daniel 7 you believe is the one that says there is an "Investigative Judgment" for Christians.

I have asked YOU to post it and you keep refusing to do so.

So then, we now know that it is neither in Verse #1 or #2. So lets go on to verse #3.

Daniel 7:3...…………
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another."

Not at once, but in succession. The rest of the verses in Daniel 7 confirm that fact.
It is not uncommon for the prophets to make use of animals to represent or symbolize kingdoms and nations - usually by some animal which was in a manner peculiar to the land that was symbolized, or which abounded there.

So, again we see that there is NO Investigative Judgment for Christians in verse #3.

I will also say to you that The Bible truth is that there is nothing in Daniel 7 or Revelation 14 describing an Investigative Judgment of the righteous.

If you believe there is, then post the Scripture!

 

[DaDad]

1 Cor. 13:8...……..
"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away." ...

Yep, when we get to the New Jerusalem, we won't have need of these anymore. But until then ... Please Use ALL The Tools Available To Ensure The Welfare Of Yourself, Your Family, and Your "Neighbors".

Otherwise what good are the GIFTINGS?

2 Timothy 3:5 holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. ​

... and if I might suggest, you present your "knowledge", -- which seems contradictory if "knowledge" has been done away with. Now if you insisted that you have no "knowledge" then you'd at least be consistent. Please let me know which ONE you propose ...

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[BobRyan]

YOU asked me...………..
"Why not "cut to the chase"?

Because I DO NOT KNOW what verse in Daniel 7 you believe is the one that says there is an "Investigative Judgment" for Christians.

I see... so then the OP did not give you any clue on my thinking in regard to Daniel 7 and the "Investigative Judgment"?

I have asked YOU to post it and you keep refusing to do so.

On the contrary I keep saying I already did - in the OP which apparently you choose not to read.

Should I repost it here on this page of the thread?

I am fine with doing that - but how is that any different than in the OP??

When I look at page one -- post #1 -- I see "pre-advent" judgment I see "investigative Judgment" posted right there in the post.

Is that missing when you look at the OP?? Should I post it again?

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the OP -- with all its explanations of where we find the "Investigative Judgment" in Daniel 7.

==========================

Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.


But if you hold scripture at a "sufficient" distance you could simply ignore all that and imagine that Daniel 7 was written by "Seventh-day Adventists" so the "details" it presents can be ignored.

First, there is NO such thing as "Investigative Judgment," it is an exclusive teaching of Seventh-Day Adventists which is not found in the Bible.

Its the Great White throne one from Revelation 20, and NO Christian will be found there!

Daniel 7 is not the GWT in Rev 20 and your own statement disproves your argument because in Daniel 7 the text says the saints are subjects of that judgment (so it is 2 Cor 5:10 not Rev 20) and as even you admit - the saints are not subjects of the Rev 20 judgment after the 1000 years.

The judgment there is for all of the lost sinners, none of the saved ones!

True of Rev 20 ... not true of Daniel 7 where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

============================

So what's this "investigative judgement" thing?

Dan 7:1-8 provides a time frame for it - by progressing through 4 world empires - to let the reader know that the judgment takes place some time after the fall of the pagan Roman empire. Daniel is writing chapter 7 in the middle of the 6th century B.C. Pagan Rome does not fall entirely until sometime in the 5th century A.D.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’ (i.e. the second coming of Christ)

The Judgment completes before the second coming. Once it does complete - we have the second coming.

Thus in Rev 14:6-7 "having an everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation saying... the hour of His judgment HAS come..."

And so it is "pre advent" and in vs 9-10 it is a matter of looking into the "details" of what is written in the books "The court sat and the books were opened"

And the subject of that judgment includes the saints "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22

It proceeds along the lines that Paul defines for us in Romans 2-- so everything is open and above board..."no partiality with God" Rom 2:11

 

[BobRyan]

Post #2 coming up for those who find it hard to get to that information on page 1 of this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

After repeated efforts to try and get one of the participants here to read page 1 of this thread -- specifically the first two posts... and their repeated request that the details/texts be posted at this point in the thread... here is post #2 where we see the process that gets used in the Daniel 7 style of judgment that is done in heaven just as God specifies.

=======================================

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Daniel 7 - says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

Notice how in Isaiah 44 it is "past tense"? (hint: that is before the cross)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

============================

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That was the Bible.

This next bit is mere creative writing

The Bible teaches that Christians shall be examined for their good works, in order to see if eternal rewards are kept/lost, but NEVER as to if keeping eternal life or not! !

Hello Bob.

You said.

=======================
Bob:
Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"
======================

I read that text (Daniel 7:10), where does that verse say 'sinless beings'. May I ask what translation your reading from?

Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.

 

[YeshuaFan]

You can twist what is says all you want, but Chapters 7, 8, 9, 11, & 12 all pertain to events approximate to the 1900's and into the 2,000's. -- It's easy to believe the commentator lies, but more difficult to discover the TRUTH. And if you decide to do your own research, an easy place to start might be the Intelligent Design sequence in 2:45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, which contradicts the 4a/4b premise.
Thanks,
DaDad

The Kingdoms described by Daniel are Greece, Persian-Mede, Babylonian, and Rome!

 

[YeshuaFan]

After repeated efforts to try and get one of the participants here to read page 1 of this thread -- specifically the first two posts... and their repeated request that the details/texts be posted at this point in the thread... here is post #2 where we see the process that gets used in the Daniel 7 style of judgment that is done in heaven just as God specifies.

=======================================

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Daniel 7 - says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

Notice how in Isaiah 44 it is "past tense"? (hint: that is before the cross)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

============================

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That was the Bible.

This next bit is mere creative writing





Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.

Bhema seat of Christ is Christian judgment unto eternal rewards , NOT for loss of eternal life, and Daniel 7 is describing Revelation 20!

 

[DaDad]

The Kingdoms described by Daniel are Greece, Persian-Mede, Babylonian, and Rome!

If what you assert is TRUE, then you obviously have an explanation for the Dan. 2:45 Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE -- INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

Furthermore, if your "interpretation" doesn't have a fulfillment, then Deuteronomy 18 says that your words are not from GOD. And last I looked, the Roman Empire is DEAD, as of the middle of the first century, and we're currently in the Clay "divided kingdom", as evidenced by the Three Superpowers and the United Nations.

If you can't resolve 2:45, then you might consider withholding assertions you can't defend.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[Major1]

Bhema seat of Christ is Christian judgment unto eternal rewards , NOT for loss of eternal life, and Daniel 7 is describing Revelation 20!

I am blessed by your Bible understanding!

 

[Major1]

Here is the OP -- with all its explanations of where we find the "Investigative Judgment" in Daniel 7.

==========================

Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.


But if you hold scripture at a "sufficient" distance you could simply ignore all that and imagine that Daniel 7 was written by "Seventh-day Adventists" so the "details" it presents can be ignored.





Daniel 7 is not the GWT in Rev 20 and your own statement disproves your argument because in Daniel 7 the text says the saints are subjects of that judgment (so it is 2 Cor 5:10 not Rev 20) and as even you admit - the saints are not subjects of the Rev 20 judgment after the 1000 years.



True of Rev 20 ... not true of Daniel 7 where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

============================



Dan 7:1-8 provides a time frame for it - by progressing through 4 world empires - to let the reader know that the judgment takes place some time after the fall of the pagan Roman empire. Daniel is writing chapter 7 in the middle of the 6th century B.C. Pagan Rome does not fall entirely until sometime in the 5th century A.D.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’ (i.e. the second coming of Christ)

The Judgment completes before the second coming. Once it does complete - we have the second coming.

Thus in Rev 14:6-7 "having an everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation saying... the hour of His judgment HAS come..."

And so it is "pre advent" and in vs 9-10 it is a matter of looking into the "details" of what is written in the books "The court sat and the books were opened"

And the subject of that judgment includes the saints "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22

It proceeds along the lines that Paul defines for us in Romans 2-- so everything is open and above board..."no partiality with God" Rom 2:11

You have posted Daniel 7:9-10.

The scene changes for Daniel and in verse 9 moves to heaven and the throne of God is revealed.

This is the same scene described in chapters 4 and 5 of the Revelation. Revelation has been correctly described as the "UNVEILING of the Boob of Daniel".
It is the preparation for the judgment of the Great Tribulation Period which will end in the 2nd Coming of Christ.

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, which literally is PLACED, corresponds to Revelation 4:4.

While in Revelation, John gives the number of the elders and other details, Daniel is not concerned with such things as his subject does NOT INCLUDE the church and Christians and its future.

"The Ancient of Days" is the eternal God.
"Whose garment was white as snow" refers to His attitudes, holiness & righteousness.
"The hair of His head was white the pure wool refers to His infinite wisdom.
"His throne was like a firey flame" speaks of judgment & Rev. 4:5 validates that.
"His wheels as burning fire" speaks of the restlessness energy and Power of God.

Verse 10 then is not the Great White Throne Judgment of the LOST which takes place after the Millennium, but is the setting for the judgment of the Great Tribulation which ends with the 2nd Coming of Christ.

There can NOT BE an Investigative Judgment in Daniel 7.