How Messed Up Are People?

How Messed Up Are People

  • Totally Messed Up (Augustine, Calvin)

    Votes: 15 55.6%
  • Partly Messed Up (Catholicism, Arminianism)

    Votes: 10 37.0%
  • Not Messed Up (Pelagius, Liberal Christianity)

    Votes: 2 7.4%

  • Total voters
    27

tdidymas

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A lot of the debate about salvation, justification, faith, and good works comes back to this question. Everyone knows that people have a sin problem, but how far down does it go? How badly has sin affected the human race? The traditional responses have been...

  1. Totally Messed Up - This was the view of Augustine contra Pelagius. Pelagius taught that sin was not an inherited condition of mankind, but a personal choice. Everyone was born neutral with the freedom to choose either good or evil. Everyone had the natural, God-given ability to be good. Therefore, salvation came as a result of our own efforts to be good. Contrary to this, Augustine taught that sin has totally messed people up and apart from God's grace there is no hope for salvation. Calvin followed Augustine and taught that God must regenerate a person in order for them to respond to him.

  2. Partly Messed Up - The Old Catholic church initially adopted Augustine's view but later drifted into a form of semi-Pelagianism. The Roman Catholic church's position today is that sin has sort of messed up people, but not completely. All people have the ability to respond to God and so salvation is a result of God's grace, but also man's spontaneous response. God and man work together for a person to be saved. This also has become the Arminian view.

  3. Not Messed Up - This is the view of Pelagius (as described above) and many liberal Christians today. There is no original sin and sin is not an inherited condition. It's perfectly normal for humans to be imperfect and God does not expect perfection from us (liberal Christianity). OR God does demand that we be good and we do have this power within us. Therefore we are saved through tapping into our own inner goodness and being the people we know we can be (Pelagius and also some liberals).
What do you say?

Most people fail to recognize the distinction between the natural and the spiritual. In the natural, we are "partly messed up" because of the sin nature and ignorance. But in the spirit, we were totally messed up (before regeneration), since we were "without God in the world." But after receiving the Spirit, we are "not messed up" spiritually because we are "led by the Spirit of God." But the natural part of us is still "partly messed up" because of the sin nature and ignorance.

So, in table form, it looks like this:
................................ Natural part .......... Spiritual part
Before regeneration: partly messed up ___ totally messed up
After regeneration: partly messed up ____ not messed up

The NT is teaching spiritual truth when it speaks of the unregenerate man being slaves of sin, captive of the devil, blinded to the truth, unable to please God, unrighteous, etc. It is also teaching spiritual truth when it speaks of our spirits being perfect, unable to sin, righteous, etc. The confusion is when people think it is speaking of natural human abilities, and this is where Pelagius went wrong, as well as Finney.
TD:)
 
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redleghunter

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That would be a very indelicate way to handle Scripture and would lead to several contradictions.
Indeed. I gather you have heard of the root word fallacy? It’s where one word must have the same meaning no matter the context.
 
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yaacotd

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A lot of the debate about salvation, justification, faith, and good works comes back to this question. Everyone knows that people have a sin problem, but how far down does it go? How badly has sin affected the human race?
All the way to their genes.
 
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bling

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I will be the lone "not messed up" because:

It is not God's fault for the way we are made and we need to quit blaming Adam and Eve.

God made us "very good" which appears to be as good as God could make created being for a purpose.

We are not clones of the perfect Christ, since Christ is not a created being and thus He can be "perfect" from the start.

"knowledge" is not bad in and of itself, so additional "knowledge" (knowledge of good and evil) should not change our "nature".

God is the ultimate Lover generously charitably giving us all we need 9including the way we have been made) to help us fulfill our objective in the life as long as we are still willing to accept help.

Sin is not the "problem" since only unforgiven sin causes a person a problem, sin actually have purpose in helping a willing individual fulfill their earthly objective.

I disagree with Pelagius and many liberal Christians today, because sin is inevitable for the mature adult and they cannot be perfect on their own, but after becoming a believer they do have the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love to become like Christ and not sin.
 
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Tree of Life

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I will be the lone "not messed up" because:

It is not God's fault for the way we are made and we need to quit blaming Adam and Eve.

God made us "very good" which appears to be as good as God could make created being for a purpose.

We are not clones of the perfect Christ, since Christ is not a created being and thus He can be "perfect" from the start.

"knowledge" is not bad in and of itself, so additional "knowledge" (knowledge of good and evil) should not change our "nature".

God is the ultimate Lover generously charitably giving us all we need 9including the way we have been made) to help us fulfill our objective in the life as long as we are still willing to accept help.

Sin is not the "problem" since only unforgiven sin causes a person a problem, sin actually have purpose in helping a willing individual fulfill their earthly objective.

I disagree with Pelagius and many liberal Christians today, because sin is inevitable for the mature adult and they cannot be perfect on their own, but after becoming a believer they do have the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love to become like Christ and not sin.

Wow. This is all very confusing.

So you do not believe that man is a fallen creature, enslaved to sin as Jesus says he is? (John 8:34)
 
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Halbhh

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A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.
Mt 12:35

Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man

Lk 23:50

He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.
Acts 11:24

The backslider in heart will have his fill of his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied with his.
Proverb 14:14

For me this is a much more interesting side than the 3 seeming choices. What is 'good' that man might have in them? Well, we know that our hearts can be changed from above, and made better.

One of the most striking things Christ said with the word 'good' --

18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."
Luke 18 NIV (also Mark 10)

When He told us to "be perfect" in Matthew chapter 5, reading through all that chapter it seems He means we should do the perfect response to our enemies of loving them.

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 5 NIV
 
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Kenny'sID

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Totally Messed Up - This was the view of Augustine contra Pelagius. Pelagius taught that sin was not an inherited condition of mankind, but a personal choice.

Who did the first man inherit it from? God? Of course not, however, I think in almost all cases, after we know what sin is, yes, it absolutely is a personal choice, how can it not be?
 
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Halbhh

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If our bodies incline us to sin, then that starts at birth before we even have consciousness of our actions. We begin saying "yes" to our flesh from the moment we cry at the first discomfort of our first breath.

Interesting. And then add this:

13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Matthew 19 NIV (and Luke 18)

and this:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

(....)

4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
Matthew 18 ESV
 
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bling

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Wow. This is all very confusing.

So you do not believe that man is a fallen creature, enslaved to sin as Jesus says he is? (John 8:34)
That is not what I said at all nor did Jesus say what you are suggesting: John 8:34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Jesus is saying "everyone who sins", so do unborn babies "sin"?

It is inevitable that all mature adults will sin. Individuals who are never born, just born, have sever mental issues, and those who never mature to the point of sinning by God's standard as safe and not in need of a savior, but will also not fulfill man's earthly objective.
 
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Tree of Life

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Who did the first man inherit it from? God? Of course not, however, I think in almost all cases, after we know what sin is, yes, it absolutely is a personal choice, how can it not be?

We are different from Adam. Adam was created a sinless being and then fell into sin. We inherit his fallen condition.
 
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Tree of Life

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It is inevitable that all mature adults will sin.

How can you know this if people are not born with a sinful condition?

Individuals who are never born, just born, have sever mental issues, and those who never mature to the point of sinning by God's standard as safe and not in need of a savior, but will also not fulfill man's earthly objective.

I don't know where you got these strange ideas from. The Bible teaches that all in Adam will die and that all were made sinners in Adam. Only those who are in Christ will be made alive and live because of him. All of this is in Romans 5.
 
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fhansen

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A lot of the debate about salvation, justification, faith, and good works comes back to this question. Everyone knows that people have a sin problem, but how far down does it go? How badly has sin affected the human race? The traditional responses have been...

  1. Totally Messed Up - This was the view of Augustine contra Pelagius. Pelagius taught that sin was not an inherited condition of mankind, but a personal choice. Everyone was born neutral with the freedom to choose either good or evil. Everyone had the natural, God-given ability to be good. Therefore, salvation came as a result of our own efforts to be good. Contrary to this, Augustine taught that sin has totally messed people up and apart from God's grace there is no hope for salvation. Calvin followed Augustine and taught that God must regenerate a person in order for them to respond to him.

  2. Partly Messed Up - The Old Catholic church initially adopted Augustine's view but later drifted into a form of semi-Pelagianism. The Roman Catholic church's position today is that sin has sort of messed up people, but not completely. All people have the ability to respond to God and so salvation is a result of God's grace, but also man's spontaneous response. God and man work together for a person to be saved. This also has become the Arminian view.

  3. Not Messed Up - This is the view of Pelagius (as described above) and many liberal Christians today. There is no original sin and sin is not an inherited condition. It's perfectly normal for humans to be imperfect and God does not expect perfection from us (liberal Christianity). OR God does demand that we be good and we do have this power within us. Therefore we are saved through tapping into our own inner goodness and being the people we know we can be (Pelagius and also some liberals).
What do you say?
Our chief mess is the spiritual death we're born into, which equates to separation from God. Man was made for communion with God. Without that he loses integrity, including moral integrity, and falls to a lower, "natural" state, whatever state we're in by being apart from Him. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5, but "With God all things are possible." Matt 19:26

We don't adopt a new, sin, nature, etc. We don't become totally depraved. We're still the same being but without the gift of immortality, and simply left to our own devices and left in the hands of our own counsel in terms of determining our moral behavior. What Adam "won" for us was autonomy from God; we became our own "gods".

And for man that means a very messed up being. Because aside from the fact that we're lost, cut off from the Source of our lives, not knowing where we came from, if anywhere, what we're here for, if for anything, and where we're going after, if anywhere, we also, almost ironically considering our limitations, possess an over-abundance of pride, in the bad sense of the word, even the most humble of us relatively speaking. Ego rules the day here in our world. Arrogance and selfishness and self-righteousness in man find a way to justify any and all of the worst behavior he may think he has reason to do at the time. Sin, IOW. Humility would preclude all sin while pride opposes God while exalting the self.

But, by having our noses rubbed in a world where our utter helplessness in the face of sin and death should eventually become a transparent truth, by experiencing-by knowing- both good and evil here, we should be able to cultivate a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and run when we recognize that pure righteousness hanging on the cross, like Prodigals back to the Father, forsaking evil for the goodness He offers us through the gift of faith. God draws and enables us to come to Himself, but still won't force us to accept.
 
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Tree of Life

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Our chief mess is the spiritual death we're born into, which equates to separation from God. Man was made for communion with God. Without that he loses integrity, including moral integrity, and falls to a lower, "natural" state, whatever state we're in by being apart from Him. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5, but "With God all things are possible." Matt 19:26

We don't adopt a new, sin, nature, etc. We don't become totally depraved. We're still the same being but without the gift of immortality, and simply left to our own devices and left in the hands of our own counsel in terms of determining our moral behavior. What Adam "won" for us was autonomy from God; we became our own "gods".

And for man that means a very messed up being. Because aside from the fact that we're lost, cut off from the Source of our lives, not knowing where we came from, if anywhere, what we're here for, if for anything, and where we're going after, if anywhere, we also, almost ironically considering our limitations, possess an over-abundance of pride, it the bad sense of the word, even the most humble of us relatively speaking. Ego rules the day here in our world. Arrogance and selfishness and self-righteousness in man find a way to justify any and all of the worst behavior he may think he has reason to do at the time. Sin, IOW. Humility would preclude all sin.

But, by having our noses rubbed in a world where our utter helplessness in the face of sin and death should eventually become a transparent truth, by experiencing-by knowing- both good and evil here, we should be able to cultivate a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and run when we recognize that pure righteousness hanging on the cross, like Prodigals back to the Father, forsaking evil for the goodness He offers us through the gift of faith. God draws and enables us to come to Himself, but still won't force us to accept.

So we gotta kindof figure it out on our own? God helps a bit but we are able to figure out, through trial and error, what's good and bad and how to be righteous? We are able, by ourselves, to recognize the glory of God in the cross of Christ?
 
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fhansen

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So we gotta kindof figure it out on our own? God helps a bit but we are able to figure out, through trial and error, what's good and bad and how to be righteous? We are able, by ourselves, to recognize the glory of God in the cross of Christ?
Never said anything like that. He enables it all, but we can still refuse; grace is resistible. IOW, we can't possibly save ourselves but we can still refuse to be saved, or walk away from it-walk away from Him-afterwards at any step along the way.
 
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RDKirk

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Interesting. And then add this:

13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Matthew 19 NIV (and Luke 18)

and this:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

(....)

4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
Matthew 18 ESV


Be sure to keep all that in context with mindfulness of the specific point Jesus was making in that context.
 
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Kenny'sID

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We are different from Adam. Adam was created a sinless being and then fell into sin. We inherit his fallen condition.

I disagree, there is always a choice. If we are aware of the sin, we can keep from doing it, I do that often.

Do you ever resist sin?
 
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Tree of Life

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I disagree, there is always a choice. If we are aware of the sin, we can keep from doing it, I do that often.

Do you ever resist sin?

By God's grace I do. But the unregenerate person who hates God cannot resist sin. This doesn't mean that he can't resist certain behaviors. But this means that in all of his behavior - whether he is telling a lie or giving to charity - he cannot help but do it in a sinful way.
 
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Vicomte13

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What do you say?

I'll answer by quoting J.R.R. Tolkien, excerpted from a letter he wrote to C.S. Lewis entitled "Mythopoeia":

"The heart of man is not compound of lies,
but draws some wisdom from the only Wise,
and still recalls him. Though now long estranged,
man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed.
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned,
and keeps the rags of lordship one he owned,
his world-dominion by creative act..."

The very Catholic Tolkien and I agree: Partly Messed up - not wholly lost, nor wholly changed.
 
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Tree of Life

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I'll answer by quoting J.R.R. Tolkien, excerpted from a letter he wrote to C.S. Lewis entitled "Mythopoeia":

"The heart of man is not compound of lies,
but draws some wisdom from the only Wise,
and still recalls him. Though now long estranged,
man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed.
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned,
and keeps the rags of lordship one he owned,
his world-dominion by creative act..."

The very Catholic Tolkien and I agree: Partly Messed up - not wholly lost, nor wholly changed.

I don't think Tokien's words are inconsistent with the first option. One can be totally messed up and yet not as messed up as possible.
 
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