FineLinen

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Absolutely, but the point he was making was that in his opinion, people will decide to be there. You might stop and say "hey thats just dumb, who would choose to go to hell?", but you would have to ignore the stubbornness of the human heart to think that everyone wants follow God. Many will simply refuse to believe or bow because they are their own god.

Dear Faith: A couple of questions for you.

1. "Is human will stronger than the drawing power of God's love?"

2. "Will God ever overrule the choice that a person makes?"

3. "Does circumstantial pressure from God make a human into a robot?"

4. "Can God change a person's heart without de-humanizing her or him?"

5. "Can God cause a person to change his or her thinking so as to choose otherwise than he or she had previously thought?"

6. "Can anyone withstand God's will forever?"

7. "If our horizon or world view is a priori that the human will is inviolate, do we not make the human will greater than God's will?"

8. "Can God make friends out of those who adamantly refuse to be so without robbing them of their humanity?"
 
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Lazarus Short

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Where the "theo-illogical bias" is in Christ's words, I don't know.

Reading the passages you quote in a Greek-English interlinear version will clue you in, maybe. I maintain that Jesus was speaking of Gehenna, the town dump, and everything He said applied to a town dump. Jesus was merely urging His hearers live righteously, so that they would not end up arrested, tried, condemned, executed and have their bodies denied a decent burial. He stated that it would be better to have been born (enter into life) blind, minus a limb, etc, than to end up in Gehenna. Simple. The overlay of "hell," a word not found in Hebrew or Greek, is not difficult to see through.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

Some believe that the suffering itself is not eternal and hell is where souls are sent to die. They believe the word eternal is referring to the lake of fire not the suffering itself.
 
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1am3laine

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Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

He made hell/lake of fire because those spirits and people deserve to be there for disrespecting GOD.
Since GOD is eternal they have to pay eternally for going against Him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Dear Faith: A couple of questions for you.

1. "Is human will stronger than the drawing power of God's love?"

2. "Will God ever overrule the choice that a person makes?"

3. "Does circumstantial pressure from God make a human into a robot?"

4. "Can God change a person's heart without de-humanizing her or him?"

5. "Can God cause a person to change his or her thinking so as to choose otherwise than he or she had previously thought?"

6. "Can anyone withstand God's will forever?"

7. "If our horizon or world view is a priori that the human will is inviolate, do we not make the human will greater than God's will?"

8. "Can God make friends out of those who adamantly refuse to be so without robbing them of their humanity?"

1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 says that God wants everyone to repent and be saved. But we know not everyone will be saved because of their disobedience. So while yes God does have the ability to save everyone it appears that is not His will. I believe He wants us to choose to love Him because love is a precious gift that can only be given freely.
 
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aiki

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And yet not one of His apostle ever mentions Gahanna, that in itself is very revealing.

You have completely ignored my point about the number or frequency of a thing not being necessarily indicative of its importance. Why is that? And I did point out that while the apostles never used the actual word "Gehenna" in their various letters constituting the NT, the concept of eternal punishment after death is clearly spelled out in them.

Yes he did come as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of mankind, but according to your doctrine he was a great big failure, as God through Jesus started something and you are saying he will fail to do that which he started.

??? Failure? How so? God offers the gift of salvation to mankind in Christ. But it is a gift, not a forced conscription. Christ did successfully atone for the sins of all mankind (remember, he said, "It is finished"), but the receiving of that atonement each of us is responsible for individually. If we will not take it, that is on us, not God.

Thus your belif is no different then those below who mock God, saying He began to build but is not able to finish.

Nope. Not at all. See above.

After He laid the foundation, Jesus Christ, for that salvation is He unable to finish what He started?

What are you talking about? The Atonement was fully and perfectly accomplished. Just as God intended, salvation is now available to any and all who will take it. Where's the failure?

According to those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation He is unable.

Unable to what? Save everybody? How could He do that without contravening our free agency? And if He does contravene our free agency, how can it be said that we love Him? Love cannot be forced, it must be freely given.

Eternal torment and annihilation are mocking God, saying He began to build, and was not able to finish.

What an odd perspective - and unbiblical.

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
 
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To be eternally abhorred by the just. What would be the purpose of the just going out to look upon carcasses of the wicked if the soul or conscience of them wasn't in torment?
Isaiah 66 ends showing that on the new earth the wickeds will be over and over again looked up by the ones in flesh. Why?
Why would those that can enter into the holy New Jerusalem need to see dead wicked people? I say-the wickeds will be used to warn what happens to those that go against God. It is how God will keep His subjects holy for ever and ever.

Daniel 12 -shows that the dead rise to everlasting shame
-plus states - contempt/abhor.
The dead wickeds will be everlastingly -abhorred.
They don't burn up into ashes. The just are not looking upon ashes at the last part of Isaiah 66. It will be bodies - carcasses that they view.

You have a fanciful imagination. Carcasses are dead and lifeless. We do not refer to carcasses today as being alive.

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."​

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):

2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."​

2 Peter 2:6 NHEB


"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”​

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”​

Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."​

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”​

Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”​

Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”​

Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."


The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:


A. Destruction of the Devil:


• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​
‭‭

• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":


• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”
 
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aiki

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Reading the passages you quote in a Greek-English interlinear version will clue you in, maybe.

This is a deflection. I have had an interlinear Bible for many years and have used it often in my study of these matters. Nothing in it indicates that what I have already pointed out about Jesus's descriptions of Gehenna is in error. No town dump has ever had everlasting and unquenchable fire, or undying worms, or has served as the place of eternal punishment of the unrepentant wicked. Jesus clearly did not intend that his audience should think of Gehenna merely as the town dump.
 
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Dear Jason: My friend you have stated clearly what is at issue. Does the Father of all fathers torment any of His offspring? Is His punishment to His enemies torment for today, tomorrow, and for endless ages without ending, with zero purpose outside of pure vengeance? We then rush to our verses of Canon to prove this God whose essence is Love operates in such fashion. Oh please!

I have 3 sons. They have displeased me at times, but they are my offspring. I will gladly give everything I have to save them and that includes my life! Yes, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the whole rotten bunch of us has given His life to make us what we are to be

I believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a real story. But the story does not say that the rich man was screaming in pain within any flames. It says he was tormented by the flame, which means the flame was either not like our real world fire (So as to cause any real major harm), or it was the heat of the flame that was nearby him or in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham that made him uncomfortable or tormented. This would be fair justice for his sins here on this Earth. Now, I do not believe God will openly torment consciously men in hell for thousands of years since the time of Noah for a finite amount of crimes or sins. I believe the wicked go through long periods of sleep or unconsciousness and they are awakened at certain times for a particular reason. For GOD is into fair justice. Fair justice means that a person will not get away with their sins (Which is what Universalism proposes) and fair justice means that a person will not be punished way beyond what the crime or sin calls for (Which is what ECT, or Eternal Conscious Torment proposes).
 
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In other words, my view could also be called the: "Fair Justice View of Hell and or the Lake of Fire."

Many today know what fair justice is in our real world, but when it comes to reading the Bible, they have conveniently ignored this concept. They think the Bible says a particular thing, and so beyond all logic and reason, they have to shut off their brains and hearts in order to make their theology work.

Universalism is too much heart thinking and Eternal Conscious Torment does not have enough heart thinking. The truth is in the middle. God destroys the wicked and God does not punish people beyond what the crime calls for. It's why GOD is good.
 
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place of torment
He didn't want his five brothers to join him in that place.
He did not ask to go back to sleep.
He cried out for mercy upon him.
There is no sleep in hell.
The wicked have no hope.

lake of fire
no rest
tormented day and night for ever and ever

Okay, first. Does the story say the rich man was screaming in tons of pain like many depict hell today? No. This means that either:

(a) The flames were other worldly flames that do not cause pain like our real world Earthly flames do.
(b) He was tormented by the heat of the flames either nearby him or in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham.​

Second, I am not denying that the place of torments (hell) is a really bad place. Surely it is true it is a bad place whereby he did not want his brothers to go there. But the text does not say that he was screaming in extreme amounts of pain from being within any fire. The rich man was able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham. Now, if a guy today was tied to a log and lowered into a huge campfire and you desired to talk with him, I highly doubt you would be able to carry on a normal conversation with him because he would be screaming too loudly from being within those flames. So this rules out the popular view of hell that many try to push today.

Yes, hell a bad place. But it is not described as a torture chamber of extreme amounts of pain.

Three, the text suggests that the rich man just arrived there.

22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." (Luke 16:22-23).​

This means that he would not have known about any form of going through long periods of sleep yet. He just arrived there after having died and lifting up his eyes in torments and seeing Abraham afar off.
 
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True. Very good! He could see others - he didn't mention anyone asleep or waking up.
He didn't ask to go to sleep. He called it a place of torment.

Well, again, you are not listening to what the text says. The text says that the rich man just arrived there, so he would have no knowledge yet of what goes on in hell. So an age of sleep would not be known to him yet because he just died and arrived in hell.

22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
" (Luke 16:22-23).
Please read the words in red above and ask yourself if this sounds like the rich man was in hell for a while or if it sounds like he just arrived in hell.

He knew that there was plenty of room there for his five brothers.
So, how many others did he see? What was happening to them?
He had time to get thirsty, and it seems that he had looked around for a bit. How did he know that the whole place was of torment? He didn't ask to go to another part of it.

His current experience was torment. But the text does not say he was screaming in pain from the flames (Which is what many churches teach).

You said:
One part that I've looked at before is it starts out as plural - torments. He lifted up his eyes in hell. That is about the only part you could use as to he'd been asleep till after he was buried

Torments in Luke 16:23 is used as a verb. He was being in torments. He was being tormented. But this place is called a place of torment (singular).

"...lest they also come into this place of torment." (Luke 16:28).

A person can be in torments by being in cold weather, but that does not mean they are in extreme amounts of pain or under a form of torture.
 
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<Jas>...Three, the fire is "everlasting" and or "unquenchable" for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists. But the Lake of Fire will not exist for all eternity. How so? Well, in the future, "...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4). "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.." (Revelation 21:1). The Lake of Fire is a part of the old heavens and old Earth and not the New Heavens and New Earth....<end>
There is not one verse which says, "the fire is 'everlasting' and or 'unquenchable' for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists." Let us look at your proof text and all the lake of fire passages in-context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
...
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The Lake of Fire is called the second death because it relates to the first death (Whereby our physical bodies perish in the first death). God would be the author of confusion if He related something that was not exactly true with a false comparison. God will make all things new and there will be no more pain, suffering, etc. One can say that this is only going to be on the New Earth, but no verse actually says that. Also, the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, then it is logical to assume that there are other previous enemies of God that will be destroyed, too. Unless of course you believe death will not be destroyed. I mean, stop and think for a moment. Why is death the last enemy to be destroyed? Because all the other enemies of God are going to die (experience death) before the power of death will then forever be permanently eliminated. God's faithful believers will then forever reign with GOD and Christ.
 
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FineLinen

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 says that God wants everyone to repent and be saved. But we know not everyone will be saved because of their disobedience. So while yes God does have the ability to save everyone it appears that is not His will. I believe He wants us to choose to love Him because love is a precious gift that can only be given freely.

Dear BNR: Actually friend the word in koine is thelo. God wills all mankind to be saved. This goes far beyond wants to His will, the Will of all little wills prevails! Again: we do not choose to follow Him.

"You did not choose Me, I chose you"
 
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He made hell/lake of fire because those spirits and people deserve to be there for disrespecting GOD.
Since GOD is eternal they have to pay eternally for going against Him.

Dear 1am3: God is indeed eternal: He is the aidios God of glory. Can you enlarge on why the Aidios God would require broken lost sinners made so by no choice of their own in Adam1, should pay "eternally" for going against Him?

The polus "were made sinners" in Adam1>>>>>>

The polus are " made righteous" in the Last Adam
 
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He made hell/lake of fire because those spirits and people deserve to be there for disrespecting GOD.
Since GOD is eternal they have to pay eternally for going against Him.

How come you don't have to pay an eternal penalty? Were you not once in disobedience to God?
 
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