• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,056
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No. Just check out the different translations and it is clear that it is a verb:

    Luke 16:23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
    Luke 16:23 - Bible Gateway

    Okay. Not true. The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brethren. Please carefully re-read the text. It says:

    27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." (Luke 16:27-29).​

    Abraham did not say they were dead and lost already. He said they had Moses and the prophets and to let his brethren hear them. Lazarus is still the topic of conversation from Luke 16:24.

    You quote Luke 16:24 about how the rich man desired for his tongue to be cooled and yet you deny that there is any actual hot or cold in hell? That makes no sense.
     
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,481
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,481
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  4. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +2,795
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    Okay, why? And how much, exactly, of teaching on the eternal destiny of man is sufficient? Who decides? You? Why you - or anyone else, for that matter?

    Wrong. I cited several instances where the eternal punishment of hell is referred to by the apostles. It is not going to work for you merely to ignore these instances and declare that the apostles said nothing about hell. It just isn't true. Deal with the Scripture I cited. Explain why none of them make any comment on the eternal punishment that is hell when they quite obviously do.

    Oh, ugh. This again. Look, this idea of yours here is very easily refuted:

    Matthew 25:46
    46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


    Do you know what a parallelism is? It's a common literary device in Jewish literature and is employed by Christ in this verse from Matthew 25. A parallel emphasizes that which two distinct things hold in common - in this case the eternality of the life of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked. If you're prepared to say that the eternal life of the righteous is not truly for ever, then you can argue that the everlasting punishment of the wicked is also ultimately temporary, but this would very clearly defy other passages in Scripture that plainly teach that the life of the believer in heaven is unending. As the verse stands, it makes directly parallel the never-to-end punishment of the wicked with the never-to-end eternal life of the righteous. Whatever clever word tricks you want to play with "ainios" and "aidios," those tricks cannot overcome the clear parallel in Matthew 25:46.

    Baloney. I teach that Jesus is the Saviour of all men who choose to trust in him as such.

    John 3:36
    36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


    Oh, please. I suspect I know better than you what these terms mean.

    Yes, and? This verse says nothing that supports universalism.

    Matthew 7:21-23
    21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
    23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


    Did God contravene my will? In regards to what, exactly?

    What makes me more special than anyone else? I've no idea what you're talking about.

    I seem to think Man's free agency is an obstacle to God? Where have I written that in this thread? All I said was that love cannot be compelled. Do you disagree? How can love be love when it is forced? By definition, love is something freely given.

    Yes, and?

    Hell is what it is in part because God is not imminent in hell as He is in all of the rest of His creation. Scripture does say, though:

    Revelation 14:10-11
    10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


    Jesus "destroyed" the devil at Calvary:

    Hebrews 2:14
    14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,


    Colossians 2:14-15
    14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
    15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


    The devil's works end when he is cast into Gehenna, the "lake of fire." Many of the consequences of his works, however, endure in the torment of those cast into Gehenna with him.

    Again, what has God started that He will not finish? You haven't established this assertion, though you keep making it.

    Do you know what a Strawman argument is? Well, you've just made one. (Hint: it is a kind of fallacious arguing.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  5. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +820
    Non-Denom
    Married
    As pages pile up in threads like this, it's good from time to time to look back at the OP. In this case, we are asked, "Why did God create a place like hell...?"

    The fact is that nowhere in the Bible, does God claim to have created Hell. Heaven, yes. Earth, yes. Hell...no. We also see the phrase "heaven and earth" over and over, but never "heaven and hell" or "earth and hell." Did Jacob see a ladder going up or what? Not down. The simple fact is that reality is a hierarchy: God, the Cosmos, the Earth, Man, animals, plants, etc. It is NOT a dualistic quarrel between God and Heaven on one side and Satan and Hell on the other, with the souls of men as the contested prize. Nonsense. Anyway, there is NO connection between Satan and Hell. None. He is going to get tossed into the Lake of Fire, yes, but even the KJV does not call that Lake as being Hell.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.
    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    ************************************

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?

    What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

    An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

    Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
    Universalist Understanding?
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Biblical universalism teaches that all shall do so.



    The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

    Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

    Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

    The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

    Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

    John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

    This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

    It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

    It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

    1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    In chapter 4 he writes:

    39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
    they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
    42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

    John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

    The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

    Journal of Analytic Theology

    Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)
    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

    Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions

    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,425
    Non-Denom
    Dear St. Paul: please be advised of the correction of aiki to your words..

    Your version=

    "God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/trust in Him. Command this and teach this."


    The new st. aiki says baloney.

    I st. aiki "teach Jesus is the Saviour of all men who choose to trust him as such."

    Home work=

    1. What does malista mean?

    2. Does malista mean monon or monos?
     
  9. yaacotd

    yaacotd New Member

    29
    +4
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    That is the price they pay for polluting the mercy of the Lord. By the way hell is not the worse place
    because it is going to be cast into the lake of fire.
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,425
    Non-Denom
    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

    1._____________________________________________________________?

    2._____________________________________________________________?

    3._____________________________________________________________?

    4._____________________________________________________________?

    5._____________________________________________________________?
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,451
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    <Jas>The Lake of Fire is called the second death because it relates to the first death (Whereby our physical bodies perish in the first death). God would be the author of confusion if He related something that was not exactly true with a false comparison. God will make all things new and there will be no more pain, suffering, etc. One can say that this is only going to be on the New Earth, but no verse actually says that. Also, the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, then it is logical to assume that there are other previous enemies of God that will be destroyed, too. Unless of course you believe death will not be destroyed. I mean, stop and think for a moment. Why is death the last enemy to be destroyed? Because all the other enemies of God are going to die (experience death) before the power of death will then forever be permanently eliminated. God's faithful believers will then forever reign with GOD and Christ.<end>
    Does not seem to address anything in my post. Particularly Rev 21:4-8
     
  12. Faith Unites

    Faith Unites Newbie

    142
    +19
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Maybe you can’t be control/alt deleted. Hell is basically the place where God does not reside. In essence it is the anti god. Operating outside of the will of God (sin) is in a sense also hell. If God is good and hell exists then it is a place where no good resides. I dunno about a literal fire, but it is certainly a place of misery. I think fire is probably just the easiest way to illustrate that agony. If everything that God has made is good then a place with no good sounds... terrifying.
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,425
    Non-Denom
    "The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished..." -2 Peter 2:9-

    Punishment=Kolasis

    Kolasis=


    Correction.

    Punishment.

    Penalty.

    Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

    Kolazo=


    1. To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

    2. To curb, check, restrain.

    3. To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

    4. To cause to be punished.

    Correction=

    Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

    Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

    Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

    Treatment of a specific defect.

    The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

    A rebuke for making a mistake.

    The act of punishing.

    Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

    The act or process of correcting.

    Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

    Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

    Amendation.

    Rectification.

    Rectification=

    To set right. To correct.

    To purify.

    To correct by removing errors.

    To adjust.

    A quantity applied by way of correcting.

    The act or process of correcting.

    Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

    Amendation.

    To correct something or make something right.

    The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

    To correct by calculation or adjustment.

    To adjust.

    To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

    The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

    "Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

    Fitted= Katartizo=

    To mend what has been broken or rent.

    To repair.

    To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

    To make one what he aught to be.

    " In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. "-C.S. Lewis
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,056
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am addressing the verse you brought up. The second death. Revelation 21:8. Again, think about this logically for a moment. Why do you think the Lake of Fire is called the second death in Revelation 21:8? The logical conclusion is because it relates to the first death (i.e. the perishing or death of our physical flesh and blood body). The Lake of Fire is called the second death because it is related to the first death. Otherwise the second death would not be a second death if it does not cause death like the first death does. That would be like having a sequel to a movie and the sequel is not related in any way to the first movie. Speaking of death: As I said before, Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). Still talking about "death" here from Revelation 21:8. So, if the last enemy to be destroyed is death and the lake of Fire is the second death, then that means that the purpose of the Lake of Fire will come to an end at some point because it is called the second death. Let that sink in for a moment.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,451
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    <Jas>I am addressing the verse you brought up. The second death. Revelation 21:8. Again, think about this logically for a moment. Why do you think the Lake of Fire is called the second death in Revelation 21:8? The logical conclusion is because it relates to the first death (i.e. the perishing or death of our physical flesh and blood body). The Lake of Fire is called the second death because it is related to the first death. Otherwise the second death would not be a second death if it does not cause death like the first death does. That would be like having a sequel to a movie and the sequel is not related in any way to the first movie. Speaking of death: As I said before, Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Still talking about death here from Revelation 21:8. So, if the last enemy to be destroyed is death and the lake of Fire is the second death, then that means that the purpose of the Lake of Fire will come to an end at some point because it is called the second death. Let that sink in for a moment.<end>
    I posted more than one verse. I posted all the verses which mention the lake of fire "in context."
    The lake of fire passages, in context.

    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
    …..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
    …..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
    More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    ...

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,056
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Sometimes it is good to focus on one verse in what it says at a time and try to address what that verse says (Instead of always taking a shotgun approach involving the Scriptures). But looking at the other verses on the Lake of Fire does not help to prove your case, my friend. Just because the beast and the false prophet are assumed to be alive in the Lake of Fire when the devil is cast in the Lake of Fire does not mean that they will not be eventually destroyed at a later date. Also, Revelation 20:10 does not mean that the beast and the false prophet are alive in the Lake of Fire, either. It does not specifically say they are alive. It simple says they are there. It could simply mean they are there in a destroyed state (i.e. they are residing there as lifeless corpses).

    But what about their being tormented for ever and ever?

    The words forever or ever = aeon (or age).

    So Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

    "for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
    "for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
    "for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

    In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

    Revelation 10:10 Darby

    "And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

    Note: the words in blue in brackets above, are my commentary to the text.

    For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

    So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

    This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,056
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You also have to ignore my point that the second death is not really related to the first death in your view or interpretation. That does not seem consistent with God being logical and orderly. For God is not the author of confusion.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,056
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    In addition, the NIV says for Revelation 20:10,
    "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

    BSB says,
    " into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. "

    GNT says,
    "where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown;"
     
  19. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +2,795
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    Are you acknowledging, then, my point about Matthew 25:46? It seems you are. But the verse also speaks explicitly of everlasting punishment of the wicked. Puts rather a crimp in universalism.

    Christ's atonement is great enough to cover all the sins of mankind but the application of that atonement to the individual sinner is, Scripture makes undeniably clear, contingent upon the exercise of the individual sinner's faith in Christ as their atoning Saviour. (Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; 1 John 5:13, etc.) If one does not believe in Christ and dies unrepentant in their sin, Christ's atonement remains untapped and hell receives another occupant.

    Let's see this verse in a bit of context:

    1 Corinthians 15:22-23
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

    The "all will be made alive" is a reference to the general resurrection at the End of Days, just prior to the Final Judgment; it is not teaching universalism. In the verses following verse 22, Paul describes an order of events at the End of Days:

    1 Corinthians 15:23-28
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
    24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
    26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
    27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
    28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


    Does the phrase "all in all" in verse 28 indicate universalism? I don't see how. Even the unrepentant, defiant, hell-bound sinner, subjected to God at the end, will acknowledge His supremacy and sustaining power. All people, saved and lost alike, will confess that God is all. But this confession does not equate to salvation. Even the devil will make such a confession at the end (not being excepted from "all things"), but he will still find himself spending eternity in the lake of fire.

    Colossians 1:16
    16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    Does it follow that if all things were created by and for Christ that all things will be redeemed by him? Try reading Romans 9:14-23 before you make such an assertion. Or think on the fate of the devil (Matthew 25:41), or the world on which we presently live that will be burned up and replaced (2 Peter 3:10).

    Colossians 1:20
    20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

    It is certainly possible as a consequence of Christ's perfect atonement for all things to be reconciled to God, but as Christ himself points out,

    Matthew 7:14
    14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


    Who will the Lord not cast off forever? Is the writer of Lamentations speaking of unrepentant sinners? No. To discover who is in view in the passage you've cited, the reader has to go back to verse 25:

    Lamentations 3:25
    25 The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, To the person who seeks Him.

    The Lord will not cast off forever those who wait for Him and seek for Him. But as King David wrote,

    Psalms 1:5-6
    5...the wicked will not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
    6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.


    None of this refutes the import of the parallel in Matthew 25:46. If you are going to say that the righteous live eternally with God, then you will have to say the wicked suffer punishment eternally, too. This is the clear indication of the parallel.
     
  20. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +2,795
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    Yes, I know. Universalism is a false teaching.

    In the case of the righteous, yes, God's wrath is corrective. But God's wrath is not universally corrective:

    Ezekiel 22:31
    31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, says the Lord GOD.

    Romans 2:5-9
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds...
    8 ...to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil...


    Revelation 14:10
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Taken in concert with those verses that teach very clearly that God's wrathful judgment and punishment await the unrepentant wicked on the far side of death, it is clear from John 3:36 that the wrath of God abiding on a person who dies in such a condition will have eternally-damning consequences.

    I did not say that it did.
     
Loading...