Tiktaalik vs. Bacterial Flagellum

Justatruthseeker

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what gaps?
Every single split on every single tree where imaginary missing common ancestors are inserted to fill that gap.... Let me reiterate.... every single split on every single tree for every single creature.....
 
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inquiring mind

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You're evading my question,"How would DNA prove with certainty, either creation or evolution?"

I'm not evading, I have every intention of answering your question....you won't even tell me what you mean by "certainty."
Sure you do... there is no answer, even if you drop the 'certainty.' No one knows if it was programmed or evolved.
LOL

That's your response? "Visit AIG!"

You have no clue how to respond to USincognito's evidence, I bet you haven't got a clue what he's even talking about.

1. Shared ERVs that form a nested hierarchy the further you move back up the evolutionary tree.
2. Shared pseudogenes like GULO in Haplorhines, Shh/Hand2 in cetaceans and VTG in placental and marsupial mammals.

Yet you feel qualified to tell us that there is no convincing evidence for evolution?

What a joke.

Now run along and search for "pseudogenes" and "shared ERVs" on some apologetics website and at least try to pretend that you know what you're attempting to discuss.
Nope, I've never said I was qualified, I'm only discussing evolution as it relates to creation... you're the 'scientist' in the room, I guess.
 
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DogmaHunter

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There are gaps in the fossil record that disprove macro-evolution.

How does a gap in a particular historical lineage disprove evolution?


Is that plain?

It's rather just wrong.

Look beyond the conjecture evolution is based on. Is that plain?

Evolution is based on evidence.
 
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DogmaHunter

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divine intervention.

aka magic.

Of course not, unless you claim that God has nothing to do with our capability to learn and reason, or didn't have anything to do with the land producing vegetation and seed-bearing plants.
I don't know, did he?
I only know that there is about as much evidence for that, as there is of involvement of space monkeys and undetectable pink unicorns.

But, I was addressing you and your view of evolution...

It's the same view as presented by actual evolutionary biologists.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I know you don't like it, but wholesale evolution has all appearances of a belief to me... no idea of an origin, no undeniable evidence of macro evolution, weak to non-existent transitional fossils, species confusion, molecular machines like the flagellum that could hardly be anything other than designed.

Every single one of the objections you mention here have been discussed and demonstrated at length, right here on this forum, addressed to you personally, in the past.

I know this to be a fact.

This shows that you, just like @USincognito says, are not at all interested in an honest discussion and are only interested in preaching and lying about the science.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You do not have any fossils proving macro evolution.
As has been explained to you countless times:

1. science doesn't deal in "proving"

2. tiktaalik - just one easy to understand example


Genetic evidence can be argued as much for Creation and a Designer as for Evolution...

That is utterly false, as has been explained to you dozens of times as well.

ERV's, nested hierarchies, etc.

None of which point to creation/design and all of which point to common ancestry of species, exclusively.

come on, you know that.

You know that too. You just like to lie about it.
 
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Jimmy D

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Nope, I've never said I was qualified, I'm only discussing evolution as it relates to creation... you're the 'scientist' in the room, I guess.

No, I'm no scientist, which is why I'm not so arrogant as to presume to tell them "you're all wrong", that would be the height of stupidity wouldn't it.

I have got a basic grasp of the topic though as I enjoy reading about it.
 
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inquiring mind

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No, I'm no scientist, which is why I'm not so arrogant as to presume to tell them "you're all wrong", that would be the height of stupidity wouldn't it.
But, you're arrogant enough that you have no problem telling someone with a view you don't understand they're all wrong... right?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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No, I'm no scientist, which is why I'm not so arrogant as to presume to tell them "you're all wrong", that would be the height of stupidity wouldn't it.
And yet every 200 years they end up being all wrong..... What would be the height of stupidity is to presume they finally got it figured out this time, when they thought the same thing every other time as well.....

Did you ever think the reason they need missing common ancestors, and 95% Fairie Dust in their cosmology is because they haven't got it right, but are still wrong?
 
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Speedwell

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And yet every 200 years they end up being all wrong..... What would be the height of stupidity is to presume they finally got it figured out this time, when they thought the same thing every other time as well.....

Did you ever think the reason they need missing common ancestors, and 95% Fairie Dust in their cosmology is because they haven't got it right, but are still wrong?
They know they might be wrong. That's how science works. Science never gets to the point, cannot get to the point where scientists can say, "This theory is absolute truth--it is proven."
 
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Heissonear

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How does .......... Evolution is based on evidence.
And evolution has evidence which requires interpretation to base conclusions.

The interpretations are typically based on godless (without input or requirement of a Creator in the world) worldview.

This makes the conclusions godless. No God needed.

Such is errant. Because such promotes the religion of Naturalism and Scientism: religions of no God or Creator needed.

Such naturalistic interpretations don't fly: void of Creator and the Holy Spirit is called foolishness.
 
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Heissonear

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As has been explained ............ ERV's, nested hierarchies, etc.

None of which point to creation/design and all of which point to common ancestry of species, exclusively.
Presented in your reply is godless worldview: no God or Creator needed.

Such is based on the religions of Naturalism and Scientism. Where Nature and Science is solely Exalted to Supremacy: above all other things.

Such is wayward and foolishness.

Such is isolation of the Creation from the Creator.

Such does not fly: only the godless (without God in this world) see and view Creation that way.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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@USincognito and his tome of posts

Yeah, that's called actually addressing the discussion substantively rather than just bloviating which is what people who are in over their head do.

Most Creationists have been fed a load of malarkey by professional charlatans and actually believed them when they were told that there are no transitional fossils or that there is no evidence for evolution. Thus, when confronted with the enormous amount of evidence supporting evolution they'd been told doesn't exist they don't know how to deal with it and resort to snide condescending comments, repeating mantras over and over and retorts that are little more than "I know you are, but what am I".

{snip} By your own admission, science doesn't prove anything...

Like far too many of us, you are confused about the issue of scientific proof. That's because people have been feed snow jobs by snake oil salesmen who use phrases like "this scientifically proven formula" and they are so scientifically unaware that they simply cannot grasp that science doesn't deal in proof, hence your thinking this is an "admission" on my part.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a scientific proof.

Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. All else equal (such as internal logical consistency and parsimony), scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to theories for which there is less and worse evidence. Proofs are not the currency of science.​

I'd suggest reading the whole thing.
 
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They know they might be wrong.
They sure don't act like it, until they are proven wrong of course.

That's how science works. Science never gets to the point, cannot get to the point where scientists can say, "This theory is absolute truth--it is proven."
Speedwell, you seem to always be the ‘Herald of Demise’ for anyone speaking up against the arrogance of science. We all benefit from much of their advancements, none of us deny that, but honestly I’m somewhat confused that you’re not more endorsing of science standing in awe of the Almighty with humbleness, and asking for His guidance and direction in the field. What gives... has all of science given up the need for God?
 
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VirOptimus

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They sure don't act like it, until they are proven wrong of course.


Speedwell, you seem to always be the ‘Herald of Demise’ for anyone speaking up against the arrogance of science. We all benefit from much of their advancements, none of us deny that, but honestly I’m somewhat confused that you’re not more endorsing of science standing in awe of the Almighty with humbleness, and asking for His guidance and direction in the field. What gives... has all of science given up the need for God?

Science doesnt adress god(s).
 
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Yeah, that's called actually addressing the discussion substantively rather than just bloviating which is what people like you who are in over your head do. That your "response" was nothing but crying about me and repeating your talking points that have been several times by several of us while offering nothing of substance comes as no surprise.

Creationists like you have been fed a load of malarkey by professional charlatans and you actually believed them when they told you there are no transitional fossils or that there is no evidence for evolution. Thus, when confronted with the enormous amount of evidence supporting evolution you'd been told doesn't exist you don't know how to deal with it and resort to snide condescending comments, repeating mantras over and over and retorts that are little more than "I know you are, but what am I".



In addition to your inability to handle, emotionally, the evidence supporting evolution you are confused about the issue of scientific proof. That's because people have been feed snow jobs by snake oil salesmen who use phrases like "this scientifically proven formula" and they are so scientifically unaware that they simply cannot grasp that science doesn't deal in proof, hence your confusing in thinking this is an "admission" on my part.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a scientific proof.

Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. All else equal (such as internal logical consistency and parsimony), scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to theories for which there is less and worse evidence. Proofs are not the currency of science.​

I'd suggest reading the whole thing.
Other than the slights... a pretty interesting post. I get the article’s point, but I couldn’t help but think as I was reading it that science has cleverly maneuvered themselves into a position where they can’t be wrong. It appeared to be very painful though for the author to admit there was even the slightest possibility that evolution could one day turn out false.
 
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Speedwell

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They sure don't act like it, until they are proven wrong of course.


Speedwell, you seem to always be the ‘Herald of Demise’ for anyone speaking up against the arrogance of science. We all benefit from much of their advancements, none of us deny that, but honestly I’m somewhat confused that you’re not more endorsing of science standing in awe of the Almighty with humbleness, and asking for His guidance and direction in the field. What gives... has all of science given up the need for God?
"Science" can't do that. Individual scientists can do it. Many, many scientists do exactly that. But "science" as such is indifferent to the existence of God. Scientists, as scientists, are only interested in what they can find evidence of. But they would follow evidence wherever it lead, even to God.

Creationists really have an arrogance problem of their own. They appear to think that if biblical creationism is shot down, it must be an attempt to "remove God." Creationists are not the only theists who believe that God is author of our being. However, most of the rest of us know that identifying a process as "natural" does not deny God, nor do we expect to find God's greasy thumbprint on the machinery.
 
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46AND2

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It appeared to be very painful though for the author to admit there was even the slightest possibility that evolution could one day turn out false.

Seriously? Did you read the same article I did? He equated evolution being wrong with monkeys flying out of his butt.
 
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