The question cessationists must answer.

[YeshuaFan]

And if you pray and God reveals to you a problem, an specific one, that you would have not a clue otherwise knowing it from scripture etc.? that is a revelation. Not scripture but still.

Not a revelation in the way meant by those holding to modern day Apostles/Prophets, as much of their theology rests upon the leaders claiming to have new and additional revelations from God in regard to theology!

 

[LoveofTruth]

When Paul uses "we" in this epistle he doesn't always mean him, Silas, and Timothy. Eg It says in 1 Thes 2:2 "we suffered shameful treatment at Philipi" - but Timothy was not in Philipi. Paul also says "we were willing to be left in Athens" in 1 Thes 3:1 - but neither Silas nor Timothy were in Athens with Paul. So obviously Paul is using the word “we” very loosely - probably as a courtesy to Silas and Timothy. So you cannot use that verse to claim that Silas and Timothy were apostles.

And as I said Timothy was definitely not an apostle if Paul begins a couple of epistles with "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...and Timothy our brother”

No he was not using it loosly as you try to claim, he said , to them, (the Thessalonians whom he and Timotheous and Silvanus were writing to)

"neither of you, nor yet of others, when we [Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,] might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.”

and which verses are you referring to about Paul with Silus or Timotheous? He may have been with one or both of them at certain moments. But clearly he speaks of all three of them in different situations or either one with him at times.

"...Many expositors, however, from this and the next verse, infer that Timothy at least joined Paul at Athens, but was sent back by him to Thessalonica, to inquire into the condition of his converts in that city. Such is the opinion of Olshausen, Neander, De Wette, Lunemann, Hofmann, Koch, and Schott; and, among English expositors, of Macknight, Paley, Eadie, Jowett, Ellicott, and Wordsworth. There is no contradiction between this view and the narrative of the Acts. Luke merely omits to mention Timothy's short visit to Athens and departure from it,..."(Pulpit commentary)

the "we in 3:1 could literally mean we or Paul speaking of their ministry in different times either together or in part. So still the words "as the apostles of Christ refers to Paul Silvanus and Timotheus. Clearly from his words.

I simply believe paul and scripture. I don't try to explain it away or ascribe to it a textual error etc.

 

[Alithis]

I don't think I need to. Like I said, he only had one point I disagreed very much with. Obviously we filter all things through our prior 'screen POV'.

I understand the difference between an 'anointing' and an 'appointing' and 'callings and commissionings' and 'soulish talents vs spirit giftings'. Yes, David was 'anointed' king as a boy, but never appointed (with power of the 'kingdom's crown) until a man years later. I still think 'our kingdom rulings' are still subject to 'His kingdom sovereignty'. IOW a 'word from Him' to move in 'faith' and not 'presumption'.


OK here we go. Which Holy Spirit/holy spirit, and what power? I believe upon your spirit being born anew into the holy spirit of Christ in you, you have all the authority and anointing/power (of YOUR will) to walk in sinlessness, just like Jesus did. And then, when you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit you have another anointing to be used whenever the Holy Spirit wants to manifest His gift through you "as He wills", but not 'just as I will'. This POV lines up with that of Jesus who only 'said' and 'did' what He heard the Father 'saying/doing'. Jesus did this because 'His will' was surrendered to the Father's will. And the Father spoke in FELLOWSHIP with Jesus authorizing Holy Spirit POWER and not just based upon their RELATIONSHIP (the Christ spirit in Jesus). Otherwise I just feel like we are assuming the throne of God, instead of acting as priests for God's throne.


Here is where scripture confirms my POV again, I think. Scripture talks about having "faith IN Jesus", but it also talks about having the "faith OF Jesus". And where does 'faith' come from? Is it not by 'hearing a word from God'? That's what Jesus said he does and that's what we need to do also IMO. If we exercise 'unlawfu/lawlessnessl' authority and power I believe it is those 'healings, deliverances, etc.' which we will receive no 'rewards' for on the day of judgment for our 'works'. Even those those who were healed and delivered are healthy and free. We exercised a 'good thing' by the power of God, but it wasn't a 'God thing' concerning His FELLOWSHIP with us. Kind of like 'borrowing' dad's credit card without asking. Same 'relationship' last name on it, but not the 'fellowship' of using it with dad's approval.


I now remember, we've talked about this before now. And I remember asking you in our first meeting concerning this point. You do not capitalize 'holy' but do 'Spirit' here. I thought then, that it was because you might have had an understanding similar to me. But now I'm not sure why you do it that way. Can you explain your reasoning? To me it is either 'holy spirit' or it is 'Holy Spirit'.


Once again, now you say 'holy spirit' which is the spirit of Christ received at the new birth. The same spirit ALL Christians receive at their new birth. The same authoity/power we all have to get free of sin personally. I'm not asking that you agree with me on this, but hopefully you do see where I'm coming from as I understand things.


Christ dwells in hearts by faith therefore if we increase faith.

GAL 4:19 My little children (immature believers), of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Our paths and callings are different, which is OK. God has different ways to accomplish His goals through those who 'diligently serve HIM' with our varied 'callings' and 'talents' and 'giftings'.

The talents..are the gospel
The SAME telant is give to all 3 servants in the parable..just in differing measure.
Faith = the action one takes because one believes.
Thus one hears the word..believes and takes action. Or in short.faith comes by hearing.
If there is no doing. There is no faith no matter how many times a persom says they have faith.

 

[Alithis]

An Apostle HAD to either walk with Jesus, know Him personally while he was here, or else have Him appear to them after resurrected, as happened to both James and Paul!
And that person you described has no way to know if that was Jesus or not...

Lol.. You say.
He was sent back to testify to ..Jesus...

 

[Francis Drake]

They must flee from us in the sense can ever possess us any more, but they can still oppress us if we allow Satan a foothold into our lives... its not that the Lord is weak, but that we are not walking in the armor of God, nor being infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Given that you attacked us ferociously when we said similar to this, you certainly have changed your tune.

 

[Francis Drake]

I believe that God still decides how the healing is done, whether by divine healing, surgery, medicine, or death of the saint!

Yawn, here we go again, death is getting healed!
Please never pray for me, and if you get asked to pray for anyone else, at least have the decency to give them a health warning.

 

[Francis Drake]

Are there modern Apostles and prophets who are getting new revelations from God today to give us, that was not in the Bible,

What a fool question. You really have no clue about the ministry gifts do you?
Its not just about new revelations, apostleship goes way beyond that. Scripture shows the apostles spent much of their time regurgitating previous revelations, or just putting them in context, or acting on revelations received from their fellow apostles.

But to answer your question, yes, I and others have received many revelations from the Lord, either through dreams, visions or hearing his voice.
Most revelations were then easily traced back in scripture, so the Lord was directing my attention for his purposes.
Some revelations have been so obscure that it has taken me much prayer and research over several years to gather it all together. And in the latter case even led me to hidden resources by giving me very accurate words of knowledge.

 

[Francis Drake]

God decides when to call his own home, and you can confess and name every healing promise in the Bible and if it is departure time...

So a murderer has no say when he kills a Christian then, he just does it as a favour to God?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Given that you attacked us ferociously when we said similar to this, you certainly have changed your tune.

My "attack" was on your claim to exorcise demons out of Christians, as there are NO recorded instances in the Bible that ever happened, and your experiences means little in this area!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yawn, here we go again, death is getting healed!
Please never pray for me, and if you get asked to pray for anyone else, at least have the decency to give them a health warning.

You really thin staying here, even if God chooses to heal us, would be superior to being with the Lord ?

 

[YeshuaFan]

What a fool question. You really have no clue about the ministry gifts do you?
Its not just about new revelations, apostleship goes way beyond that. Scripture shows the apostles spent much of their time regurgitating previous revelations, or just putting them in context, or acting on revelations received from their fellow apostles.

But to answer your question, yes, I and others have received many revelations from the Lord, either through dreams, visions or hearing his voice.
Most revelations were then easily traced back in scripture, so the Lord was directing my attention for his purposes.
Some revelations have been so obscure that it has taken me much prayer and research over several years to gather it all together. And in the latter case even led me to hidden resources by giving me very accurate words of knowledge.

You have not seen the risen Lord Jesus, nor been gifted to do signs and wonders by him, so you really do not have Apostolic authority, correct?

 

[YeshuaFan]

So a murderer has no say when he kills a Christian then, he just does it as a favour to God?

When a Christian dies, that is the time ordained bY God, not by satan, correct?

 

[NBB]

My "attack" was on your claim to exorcise demons out of Christians, as there are NO recorded instances in the Bible that ever happened, and your experiences means little in this area!

Some say christians can't be possesed, i don't know about that, but having a demon inside doesn't mean all the time someone is possesed, it just mean is there, and we need to take them out. All the evil spirit don't leave just because we convert, they can be there because of traumas, or took advantage of us when we were kids, even babies, or because of sins, you are talking something you don't have any experience on,
I been delivered of demons or evil spirits long after i converted. And some of them were there from the time i was a child, If you don't have any experience on this, you shouldn't say to others who have that what they are living is not true.

 

[Hillsage]

The talents..are the gospel
The SAME telant is give to all 3 servants in the parable..just in differing measure.
Faith = the action one takes because one believes.
Thus one hears the word..believes and takes action. Or in short.faith comes by hearing.
If there is no doing. There is no faith no matter how many times a persom says they have faith.

When I mentioned 'talents vs giftings' I wasn't hoping to derail this the way your response just did. So let me just say this.
The servants had differing amounts of talents which was money. I'm not talking about money or gospel talents. I'm talking about soulish human 'talents' which is not the gospel.

My belief is the soulish 'talent' abilities are the 'doma' giftings of the five fold ministries in Eph 4. These are not charismatic or 'spiritual' attributes but 'soulish' attributes which every human being is born with. Just as Jeremiah was called to be a PROPHET from the womb. He was born with 'PROPHET' talents, but not the ability to prophesy until the Spirit came upon him as with other prophets. But scripture says in the NT, that the ability to 'prophesy' with giftings/spiritual was available to every Spirit baptized Charismatic in the church of Corinth. "YOU MAY ALL PROPHESY."

But being able to "prophesy" does not mean you are all 'Prophets'. Being a prophet is a position of authority in the church, more so than an ability to prophesy....which ALL Charismatics can do.

But I"m not talking about spiritual gifts, I'm talking about soulish ones.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men. 11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,

1390 doma: a present

As I said, the fivefold ministry doma gifts in 4:8 aren't spiritual/charisma. they are soulish talents one is born with like Jeremiah

JER 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated/sanctified you; I appointed/ordained you a prophet to the nations."

It has been said that God has given every human being soulish talent from the womb. And along the lines of what I'm sharing here, it has been said that God's talent for Bill Clinton was to be an EVANGELIST. A talent which he did not use for God, but for politics to influence the masses, not for God, but for elections.

But that's enough about this. It is not the point of my last post concerning the "HS" versus "hs" issue I'm really wanting to hear you address.

 

[Alithis]

Sorry, not trying to criticize or anything, but you may want to wait a bit to see if the anointing thing is true or not. You may end up being a bit 'cessationist' yourself in some way.
I would suggest to leave the door open a little just in case is it true...
God bless.

Its the word anointing.
It is true absolutly ... Jesus said the spirit of the lord has (past tense) anointed me... To things he listed.
He then went and did those things.
It was not about a feeling .
The anointing is not a feeling or anything like that.
The word anointing does not mean what youve been taught it means.
I was tricked by the teaching you cant do anything unless you FEEL some special anointing.
Its a lie. A false doctrine.
It holds people in churches on sunday waiting for some one to come and give them some special word and impart some mystical power. Its an imprisoning lie.
It is bound in Unbelief.
God showed me ..you already have been appointed his witness when you recieved the holy Spirit.
Now rise up go out and obey the lord Jesus.
Thats called the obedience of faith. Faith is not a passive thing you have.
Faith is the action you take because you believe in JESUS.
When the lord showed me this..and showed me we were all sitting on sundays being unfruitful branches he also reminded me what happens to unfruitful branches.
So many will attend church and seminar and conference and flutter thier leaves in feelings and experiences and still be CUT off as unfruitful branches.
Fruit ..multiplies the tree. Preaching singing coffeemaking ushering office working worship leading..these are service ..but they are not fruit.
Fruit is to become More of the vine your grafted into ..do not be a hearer of the word and not a Doer

I know when the pastor preaches from the scriptures that is the real message the Holy Spirit intends for us to hear, but what passes in many Charismatic churches as the Holy Spirit communicating to us, not so much!

You know that do you?
Yikes

 

[Francis Drake]

Not a revelation in the way meant by those holding to modern day Apostles/Prophets, as much of their theology rests upon the leaders claiming to have new and additional revelations from God in regard to theology!

More straw man arguments and more lies about those who believe in the gifts and ministries of the spirit. When will you get it into your head, this is not what continuationists believe or are saying.

I have never met a single person believing in the gifts, who claims to have received revelation that adds to scripture, nor have I seen such a claim on this thread.

I have received many revelations but they invariably lead back to scripture. I just happened to be unaware till the Lord brought it to my attention.

I have also received many revelations that are never to be found in scripture, but they are just part of the Fatherhood of God bringing blessing to his child, and have nothing to do with theology.

ie. About 30 years ago, after my wife's car was stolen, I was indignant and asked the Lord to do something about it. Two days later, as I was at a trade counter buying some plumbing materials, I distinctly heard the Lord tell me to drive down a certain street and I would find my wife's car.

I paid for my goods and then set off to find that street. As I slowly cruised down that street, there was my wife's car parked on the forecourt of a shop, the thieves obviously inside!

There was a police station at the end of that road, so I raced back and very quickly told the desk sergeant. I then raced back and waited for the boys in blue to come and do their job. The thieves were arrested along with a whole load of stolen goods and credit cards.

That is revelation today, received through a word of knowledge. The Lord does such things for those who listen. People like you who spend their lives trashing such things will never receive any such thing from the Lord!

Your problem is that you presume that the word "revelation" always means being given some new doctrine!
Like Paul says, we should all be continually seeking the Lord for revelation-

Eph1v16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers 17and asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of him 18I ask that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints,…

If we are not living in the spirit of revelation, then we are living in the flesh.

 

[W2L]

Only children need a teacher. The apostle Paul urges us to grow up.

 

[W2L]

If we are not living in the spirit of revelation, then we are living in the flesh.

So you have revelation? What need do you have for an apostle, teacher, or prophet then?

 

[Francis Drake]

We are not saying all spiritual gifts ceased, but that certain ones did with the Apostles, and we have 1900 years of church history on our side!

Is that the best you can do?
You only have 1900 years of church history on your side because the institutional system was created and run by people like you, who tortured and murdered anyone who didn't believe the same as you.

Calvin, a favourite amongst cessationists, murdered his theological opponent. Does that also prove Calvinism?

Russian and Chinese communists insisted God didn't exist, and proved it by enslaving or killing all Christians.

Sorry, I don't buy your proof at all.

 

[Alithis]

When I mentioned 'talents vs giftings' I wasn't hoping to derail this the way your response just did. So let me just say this.
The servants had differing amounts of talents which was money. I'm not talking about money or gospel talents. I'm talking about soulish human 'talents' which is not the gospel.

My belief is the soulish 'talent' abilities are the 'doma' giftings of the five fold ministries in Eph 4. These are not charismatic or 'spiritual' attributes but 'soulish' attributes which every human being is born with. Just as Jeremiah was called to be a PROPHET from the womb. He was born with 'PROPHET' talents, but not the ability to prophesy until the Spirit came upon him as with other prophets. But scripture says in the NT, that the ability to 'prophesy' with giftings/spiritual was available to every Spirit baptized Charismatic in the church of Corinth. "YOU MAY ALL PROPHESY."

But being able to "prophesy" does not mean you are all 'Prophets'. Being a prophet is a position of authority in the church, more so than an ability to prophesy....which ALL Charismatics can do.

But I"m not talking about spiritual gifts, I'm talking about soulish ones.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men. 11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,

1390 doma: a present

As I said, the fivefold ministry doma gifts in 4:8 aren't spiritual/charisma. they are soulish talents one is born with like Jeremiah

JER 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated/sanctified you; I appointed/ordained you a prophet to the nations."

It has been said that God has given every human being soulish talent from the womb. And along the lines of what I'm sharing here, it has been said that God's talent for Bill Clinton was to be an EVANGELIST. A talent which he did not use for God, but for politics to influence the masses, not for God, but for elections.

But that's enough about this. It is not the point of my last post concerning the "HS" versus "hs" issue I'm really wanting to hear you address.

We know the kingdom of heaven is not money.
We know the master is the king of the kingdom of heaven
We know what he left us and what we are to do with what he left us.
The Gospel .
Hes not coming back until the Gospel is preached to all people to give them oppurtunity to repent be baptise and recieve the holy Spirit.