2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[JLB777]

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? YES OR NO.

It is amazing that you can even take yourself seriously anymore. Paul specifically says to some believers that they are removed from Christ and STILL considers them brothers.

Your theology is the epitome of hating your brother. You really should praise and thank God that your theology is INCORRECT, because your theology tosses you into the LoF forever.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do you understand (discern) the fact that "reaping" requires effort? So, just what do these 3 passages refer to? It is reaping eternal life. Something is earned on the basis of reaping. We know that salvation is NOT earned, it's given by grace.

So, to reap eternal life is speaking of receiving reward in heaven (eternity) on the basis of one's efforts.


Correct. Reaping results in a reward. Faith in Christ results in salvation, which is not by works.

This is a good question. Jesus answered it Himself.
The abusing believer who does not care what his Lord thinks.

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 24:51

The servant who abuses a fellow servant after being forgiven their debt.

In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. Matt 18:34

The free gift of grace can be abused, and there is judgement if this is done.

It is like being given a car which you then wreck and destroy and expect to receive a new one, rather than the very thing one has abused will not be just taken away.

Your whole framework justifies abuse, while scripture warns us against such behaviour. And the lie the enemy wins you over with, is this is earning salvation, a self righteous justification, rather than God righteous judgement on a lost sinner.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Correct. Reaping results in a reward. Faith in Christ results in salvation, which is not by works.

Salvation is because we trust in the cross to forgive our sins, without which we stand judged before Gods throne. This salvation is alone because of faith.

Because we are forgiven and cleansed, we can walk in His ways, be righteous, Holy, remade, loving, transformed people.

But if we choose to sow to the sinful nature we deny the very gift Christ has given us through the cross and stay in the world or return to it.

This is though meaningless if you have literally never come to faith in Jesus, repented of ones sins and are committed to a righteous walk. Proof of this reality is the righteous walk. Somehow a lie is introduced here where righteous walking is evil and wrong and just a sign of self righteousness and legalism.

A heart that thinks like this has never met Jesus or known purity. It is like night and day, darkness and light. If one cannot discern between hitting people in the face and helping to love and feed them, then there is little more one can do, but warn of the day of judgement that will come and the reconning that will occur.

But I doubt that fear of God is anywhere in the make up here, because in their mind fear of God is blasphemy, unbelief and sin. I was told Elijah sinned when he feared for his life, even though many thousands of believers had been killed, he should of had no fear. But then emotions are wrong, and not part of life.......

 

[LightLoveHope]

A side note

When is a believer not a believer? When he no longer believes.
When does faith become without power? When it does nothing, does not change the believer, does not promise anything, does not move the heart, does not convict of sin, has no spiritual authority, blesses with no cost or conditions.

What is scripture meant to be like
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Tim 3:16-17

King David spent his time doing this
I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways.
I delight in your decrees; I will not neglect your word.
Do good to your servant, and I will live; I will obey your word.
Psalm 119:15-17

But if we are not to walk righteously, or be concerned with Gods precepts or will, then the way of sinner walking faith is like marsh mallow training in sinning.

 

[Gr8Grace]

His problem is that he will never accept the biblical teaching about fellowship with the Lord, and that it can be severed, just as the fellowship between husband and wife can be severed

It's tragic and frustrating that the vast majority will not accept it.

I don't know about you, but I spent nearly a decade as a 'lifestyle' Christian and OHHH what a relief it was to finally be taught about fellowship and the TRUE Christian life.

I suspect many reject it, because to admit that one has been doing it wrong for 10,20,30 years is a pretty big hit to our pride.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It's tragic and frustrating that the vast majority will not accept it.

I don't know about you, but I spent nearly a decade as a 'lifestyle' Christian and OHHH what a relief it was to finally be taught about fellowship and the TRUE Christian life.

I suspect many reject it, because to admit that one has been doing it wrong for 10,20,30 years is a pretty big hit to our pride.

Lifestyle Christian - Appear to be a believer but actually not know Jesus.
A common failure for people who have grown up in the church and thought themselves to have faith, but just conformed to middle class behaviour and social norms.

Coming to a faith of sinner walking is not coming to faith at all.
Only through true repentance and cleansing can the reality of Christ in our lives be achieved.

And the way you know who has come to true faith in Jesus is a heart flowing with love and openness. It is a light on a hill, darkness runs away. What makes me wonder is why anyone would not want to be a light of love shinning on Hill, seeing people helped and brought forward in love and life, through the forgiveness of the cross and the love of Christ.

Unless ofcourse, they are not actually people of the light but enemies who live in darkness and sin, and for whom the light is condemnation and failure, from which they wish to run and hide.

 

[Gr8Grace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

Gal 1~~6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So your premise that a believer who is 'removed from Him' is no longer a brother and does not have eternal life is FALSE. And Paul describes your premise and 'gospel.'
Gal 1 ~~9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -

Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?
JLB

i don't mean to be insulting, but it appears that you are maybe just too dense to grasp the fact that your question is illegitimate, because it is based on a false premise.

Do you understand what a "false premise" means?

Same thing as my question to you, about if you have stopped beating your wife.

My question assumes that you have been beating her.

Your question assumes that a sealed believer can be removed from Christ, which is just as fallacious as my assumption that you have been beating your wife.

Now, if from all this explanation, complete with a perfect illustration, doesn't sink in, and you STiLL ask your illegitimate question with its false premise, then I guess you ARE just too dense to grasp reality here.

However, please do ask me any question that is based on reality and the word of God, and I'll happily answer it.

Otherwise, don't bother asking the stupid questions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again you are doing a put down, suggesting I need a dictionary to even understand my use of put downs. lol.

Well, the FACT is, you seem NOT to understand what a put-down is. Which is why i made my suggestion to you.

Here is a definition of a put down from a dictionary in this context
"to criticize someone, especially when other people are present, in a way that makes them feel stupid He’s always trying to put me down."

That's just an example of a very subjective and emotional person. That isn't a put-down.

From: Definition of PUT-DOWN

: DEPOSE, DEGRADE
b: DISPARAGE, BELITTLEmentioned his poetry only to put it down
c: DISAPPROVE, CRITICIZEwas put down for the way she dressed
d: HUMILIATE, SQUELCHput him down with a sharp retort

Pointing out errors is NOt a put down.

Saying the bible does not say what I am taking it to mean, when hundreds of years of theology and doctrine proclaim the very understanding I am presenting.

Once again, you gravely misunderstand the issue. The Bible does NOT say what you are taking it to mean, and I provide a clear explanation of that FACT.

And again, I do not care one bit what "hundreds of years of (human) theology" believe.

I believe what the Bible says.

I wonder why you find it hard to admit the interpretation of scripture is the same as Wesley, the great preacher. I fully support the holiness movement, and the desire to see righteous walking empowered by the Holy Spirit.

First, I don't know what Wesley says on various subjects, because I don't study or read him. Second, we don't need the "holiness movement" in order to be filled with the Spirit. We do need to know what the Bible says about it.

You seem to represent something very old, sinful walking because of grace.

This is just insane. Blaming sin on grace. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The free gift of grace can be abused, and there is judgement if this is done.

I fully agree.

It is like being given a car which you then wreck and destroy and expect to receive a new one, rather than the very thing one has abused will not be just taken away.

This is a terrible example. It doesn't work in any sense.

Your whole framework justifies abuse, while scripture warns us against such behaviour.

Your opinion has not been supported by any evidence. Do you have any?

How do I "justify abuse"?

And the lie the enemy wins you over with, is this is earning salvation, a self righteous justification, rather than God righteous judgement on a lost sinner.

Please re-phrase. It makes no sense as is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation is because we trust in the cross to forgive our sins, without which we stand judged before Gods throne. This salvation is alone because of faith.

The object of "your" faith is misplaced. You said "we trust in the cross...". That's not biblical, but that does not seem to matter to you.

We are supposed to trust in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross.

Do you not see any difference between my statement and yours?

Because we are forgiven and cleansed, we can walk in His ways, be righteous, Holy, remade, loving, transformed people.

Yes, we can, and we are commanded to.

But if we choose to sow to the sinful nature we deny the very gift Christ has given us through the cross and stay in the world or return to it.

Please re-phrase, as this sentence doesn't make sense. I think you left something out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A side note

When is a believer not a believer? When he no longer believes.

Again, your statements do not line up with Scripture, which seems to make little to no difference to you.

The Bible teaches that once a person believes;
1. they are born again Titus 3:5
2. they are new creatures 2 Cor 5:17
3. they are forgiven Acts 10:43
4. they are sealed with the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13,14
5. they are given the gift of eternal life John 10:28

Now, can you provide ANY verse that plainly teaches that any of these things can be are will be revoked if a person ceases to believe? No, you cannot.

When does faith become without power?

Any time the believer grieves (Eph 4:30) or quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

What is scripture meant to be like
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Tim 3:16-17

These are all factual objective things. Nothing emotional or subjective here.

 

[Gr8Grace]

But now he is doomed to the lake of fire forever.
So they are actually lying about their own beliefs and position.

Nonsense, like most of the time.
Read it again s l o w l y

Gr8Grace said: ↑
Your theology is the epitome of hating your brother. You really should praise and thank God that your theology is INCORRECT, because your theology tosses you into the LoF forever.

 

[BNR32FAN]

By proving that it doesn't exist................Absolutely, every single, ALL, persons in this time frame claimed that eternal security is a farce? You have studied and researched EVERY single theologian and teacher in this time frame? Please show us ALL of them and their stance.

That’s a ridiculous idea and makes about as much sense as proving a one eyed two horned flying purple people eater doesn’t exists by bringing every creature that exists in the world and even doing so still wouldn’t prove it didn’t exist it could only mean one wasn’t found. So why don’t you stop with this silly argument and just concede that you cannot find any early church writings to support your claim?

 

[LightLoveHope]

We are supposed to trust in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross.

Free, This again summarises your approach to discussion and respect of others.
If you wish to be taken seriously, you have to allow for summaries that express truths that both the reader and writer agree on.

But then as you do this with scripture, little wonder you will do it with what I am writing. It is why I cannot take you seriously.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Nonsense, like most of the time.
Read it again s l o w l y

Gr8Grace said: ↑
Your theology is the epitome of hating your brother. You really should praise and thank God that your theology is INCORRECT, because your theology tosses you into the LoF forever.

Actually I probably did make a mistake with the double negative.
So you are trying to say, they are saved because of your theology but doomed under their own theology.

In your world, the world of God saving enemies while they destroy Him, how could the Kingdom of God ever stand?

I can only believe this makes sense to you because you stay a nice guy, saying nice things. God help you when you meet fruit of your teaching, because there will be nothing that can save you then, because this is Gods will at work.

Imagine heaven would be continual war with no end, no justice, no truth, because sin is not a problem, only they believe God is King.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Again, your statements do not line up with Scripture, which seems to make little to no difference to you.

Thank you for this encouragement.
If I dictate the verses and their meaning and then quote them, means you are not telling the truth.

I came across this behaviour tendency among others, who think slander is a gift of the spirit. Slander is actually sinful behaviour.

Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:11-12

It grieves me that you regard Gods word so lightly.
Why is it you hate being light to a dark world.

You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
Matthew 5:14-16

But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
Matthew 6:23-24

You seem to dislike the idea of being light? Why is this?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Pointing out errors is NOt a put down.

You are right, if I had made an error.
If in reality I am just quoting one view or interpretation of scripture, you are doing exactly what I am describing.

Why are you so hard to admit you hold one of many views people over centuries have held?

You talk about you claim to like and follow facts.

Maybe facts are not your passion after all.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I feel shame. The shame I bear is being called by the same name as those who defend sinful behaviour in the name of Christ.

That literally is bringing the name of Christ into disrepute.

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
2 Peter 2:2-3

We are called to be like this

He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.
They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.
1 Timothy 3:7-9

This is not living as we want.

 

[Gr8Grace]

That’s a ridiculous idea and makes about as much sense as proving a one eyed two horned flying purple people eater doesn’t exists by bringing every creature that exists in the world and even doing so still wouldn’t prove it didn’t exist it could only mean one wasn’t found. So why don’t you stop with this silly argument and just concede that you cannot find any early church writings to support your claim?

I don't care what the shmorshadox church taught. I have the bible to support my claims.

We are sealed by the Spirit for the day of redemption.

We will never perish.

We have eternal life.

Eternal life is a Gift from God.

His Gifts are irrevocable.

You can stick with a bunch of dudes that obviously didn't study to show themselves approved.....no wonder they morphed in the catholic 'church.'