The question cessationists must answer.

[YeshuaFan]

You didn't list anything.



No, my position is that I don't believe ALL the NT gifts are for today. The same as most continuists don't believe ALL the NT gifts are for today either. Most continuists believe apostles are not around today, and apostle is listed as a gift.



I never called the storytellers liars, although some probably are. Most of them are cases of wishful thinking, exaggeration, mistakeness or delusion. Some are like chinese whispers, being embellished as they pass from person to person. A few may even be true. I never said I don't believe in miracles.



The New Testament is the inerrant inspired word of God. That is the one source that is guaranteed to be true.

The sign gifts were given by God to the Apostles to confirm that Jesus was the Messiah, and that His Gospel of His is the only true One!

 

[W2L]

I don't know how WOF keeps coming into this thread - seems off topic - but since yall are going to talk about it -- WHAT IS IT? Are these TV people like Kenneth Copeland?

They are charismatics who believe in the gifts. They believe everyone with the Spirit speaks in tongues, if i'm not mistaken. They also promote the prosperity gospel.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I don't know how WOF keeps coming into this thread - seems off topic - but since yall are going to talk about it -- WHAT IS IT? Are these TV people like Kenneth Copeland?

Yes, and also ken Hagin, Fred price et all!

 

[W2L]

I would rather ask the same question an atheists asked rather than to follow a false apostle.

 

[YeshuaFan]

They are charismatics who believe in the gifts. They believe everyone with the Spirit speaks in tongues, if i'm not mistaken. They also promote the prosperity gospel.

They hold to Second act of Grace, so called Baptism in Holy Ghost as evidenced by tongues, and that all physical and financial blessings God gave Israel are to us today, but the big problem is that we are under grace not law today, so we have all spiritual blessings in Christ today!

 

[Anto9us]

thx for all the replies about WOF.

I would say then that they are a sub-set of charismatics that give charismatics a bad name, just as Oneness Penetecostals are a sub-set of charismatics who give charismatics a bad name in that they don't believe in the Trinity.

But it seems beside the point.

I freely grant that there are embarrassing people who speak in tongues, and groups who speak in tongues that hold erroneous doctrines. But why should one focus on the counterfeit instead of the real? Counterfeit money EXISTS, we all know that, so what?

You better send me all of your currency, because some bills may be counterfeit. That is the logic behind Cessationists saying "Gifts today cannot be real - because there are counterfeits of them"

 

[YeshuaFan]

thx for all the replies about WOF.

I would say then that they are a sub-set of charismatics that give charismatics a bad name, just as Oneness Penetecostals are a sub-set of charismatics who give charismatics a bad name in that they don't believe in the Trinity.

But it seems beside the point.

I freely grant that there are embarrassing people who speak in tongues, and groups who speak in tongues that hold erroneous doctrines. But why should one focus on the counterfeit instead of the real? Counterfeit money EXISTS, we all know that, so what?

You better send me all of your currency, because some bills may be counterfeit. That is the logic behind Cessationists saying "Gifts today cannot be real - because there counterfeits of them"

We do not say that all gifts have ceased, just that the Offices of the prophet/Apostles have, and that none are being gifted by God to heal or do miracles today as they did!

 

[Anto9us]

The SIGN gifts are tongues and healing.
The "subject to vanish away gifts" are tongues, prophecy, and word of knowledge.

 

[W2L]

But why should one focus on the counterfeit instead of the real? Counterfeit money EXISTS, we all know that, so what?

You better send me all of your currency, because some bills may be counterfeit. That is the logic behind Cessationists saying "Gifts today cannot be real - because there counterfeits of them"

I tried to focus on the real as well. I asked where the true apostles are today, and why Churches cant agree with each other if they have real apostles..

 

[Deborah D]

I don't know how WOF keeps coming into this thread - seems off topic - but since yall are going to talk about it -- WHAT IS IT? Are these TV people like Kenneth Copeland?

WOF stands for Word of Faith, and WOF teachers are considered charismatic. I addressed some of their beliefs in post #657. I've seen a lot of misinformation about WOF teaching. It's a shame that those who are criticizing WOF don't just read what they actually teach instead of cherrypicking quotes from them and getting it wrong.

Kenneth Copeland is considered a leading WOF preacher. I'll just say this about the Copelands. I used to listen to them years ago. While I certainly don't agree with everything they teach, esp. the prosperity message (which can sound like God wants us happy all the time and filthy rich....), I did learn a lot about faith from them. I've since read some unbiblical quotes from them that I'm concerned about. But instead of judging them, I will look into it.

Having said this, I don't agree with any preacher 100% of the time! That's just how it is. I've learned to "eat the meat and spit out the bones," as they say.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I tried to focus on the real as well. I asked where the true apostles are today, and why Churches cant agree with each other if they have real apostles..

true Apostles are found only in the Bible!

 

[YeshuaFan]

WOF stands for Word of Faith, and WOF teachers are considered charismatic. I addressed some of their beliefs in post #657. I've seen a lot of misinformation about WOF teaching. It's a shame that those who are criticizing WOF don't just read what they actually teach instead of cherrypicking quotes from them and getting it wrong.

Kenneth Copeland is considered a leading WOF preacher. I'll just say this about the Copelands. I used to listen to them years ago. While I certainly don't agree with everything they teach, esp. the prosperity message (which can sound like God wants us happy all the time and filthy rich....), I did learn a lot about faith from them. I've since read some unbiblical quotes from them that I'm concerned about. But instead of judging them, I will look into it.

Having said this, I don't agree with any preacher 100% of the time! That's just how it is. I've learned to "eat the meat and spit out the bones," as they say.

Their BIG problem is that they hold to additional revelations from God ongoing, that we are under Faith laws that even God must obey, and their jesus is more a master of the Force than God incarnate!

 

[Deborah D]

Fred price teaches that Jesus died spiritually while in the garden, while Kenneth Copemland teaches that he became the snake upon the Cross, became the nature of satan Himself, and so had to get born again in hell!
And woF hang their theology hats upon the verse that God spoke into existence things that were not not, so we can now also! they elevate us to being same as Jesus, as Hagin stated that we can be just as much an incarnation of god as he was if we learn the Faith rules, and that God begat little gods in his own image!

How about some lengthy quotes from them instead of empty accusations? Like I said, that's very sloppy work on your part!

 

[W2L]

WOF stands for Word of Faith, and WOF teachers are considered charismatic. I addressed some of their beliefs in post #657. I've seen a lot of misinformation about WOF teaching. It's a shame that those who are criticizing WOF don't just read what they actually teach instead of cherrypicking quotes from them and getting it wrong.

Kenneth Copeland is considered a leading WOF preacher. I'll just say this about the Copelands. I used to listen to them years ago. While I certainly don't agree with everything they teach, esp. the prosperity message (which can sound like God wants us happy all the time and filthy rich....), I did learn a lot about faith from them. I've since read some unbiblical quotes from them that I'm concerned about. But instead of judging them, I will look into it.

Having said this, I don't agree with any preacher 100% of the time! That's just how it is. I've learned to "eat the meat and spit out the bones," as they say.

Wrong, WOF has not been misrepresented. YOu yourself admit that you dont know what they teach so how would you know? I have listened to WOF preachers, i know what they teach. Its that teaching that made me stop listening to them. It didnt follow the truth of scripture.

 

[W2L]

true Apostles are found only in the Bible!

So far that is the only thing we can prove it seems.

 

[Deborah D]

Their BIG problem is that they hold to additional revelations from God ongoing, that we are under Faith laws that even God must obey, and their jesus is more a master of the Force than God incarnate!

On and on you go! Where's the proof???

 

[Deborah D]

Wrong, WOF has not been misrepresented. YOu yourself admit that you dont know what they teach so how would you know? I have listened to WOF preachers, i know what they teach. Its that teaching that made me stop listening to them. It didnt follow the truth of scripture.

I admitted no such thing! I said I don't know what EVERY WOF teacher teaches! See, you're even misrepresenting what I've said! That's just wrong!

WHERE'S THE PROOF OF WHAT YOUR SAYING??? You babble on and on and offer no real proof!

 

[W2L]

More deflection from deborah.

@Deborah D Where are the true apostles today? If they are found in every Church then why do we have calvinism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, MJ, EO, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, and so on?

 

[Deborah D]

More deflection from deborah.

@Deborah D Where are the true apostles today? If they are found in every Church then why do we have calvinism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, MJ, EO, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, and so on?

Oh, wow, that's deflection, but not from me!

Are you Roman Catholic?

 

[YeshuaFan]

How about some lengthy quotes from them instead of empty accusations? Like I said, that's very sloppy work on your part!

Those statements I gave from them are all to be found in the book, Different Gospel, by DR McConnel, and he was graduate of Oral Roberts, and proves that pretty much of all Wof theology came form a Metaphysical false teacher EM Kenyon, and not of/from God!

 

[W2L]

I admitted no such thing! I said I don't know what EVERY WOF teacher teaches! See, you're even misrepresenting what I've said! That's just wrong!

WHERE'S THE PROOF OF WHAT YOUR SAYING???

Where is your proof that we still have apostles today? Which Church are they in? Catholicism? Lutheranism? Protestantism? Pentecostal? Anglican? Methodist? MJ, SDA, EO? ???