If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Light of the East]

Can you show me any scripture which explicitly states this? Where does any scripture state that "Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them?" Something so important don't you think God would have stated that somewhere at least once?

Good grief! You can't even believe and obey those scriptures which are given to you, and yet you turn around and demand scriptures from others.

When you obey "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood" then will you have some sort of spiritual authority from which to criticize how others interpret the Bible.

 

[Light of the East]

Of course everyone deserves His wrath. No one is arguing otherwise.

Everyone?

Even those in the Bible who are described as righteous?

They deserve wrath also?

By what standard of justice?

 

[Light of the East]

.That is because I know what I believe. I stand on the Rock of the Word of God. Not on the wisdom of men.

Really? So you truly believe what Jesus said when He said "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood?" You really take what He said at face (literal) value and believe that the Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood?

 

[Light of the East]

Revelation 6:10-11(KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Its's been estimated that over 50M Christians have been martyred over the millennia for their faith. We see in the Book of Revelation the Saints in heaven crying out for revenge. How would anyone involved in this thread feel if people like Hitler, rapists, child molesters and serial killers were allowed into heaven? I doubt some of those people would even want to go to heaven even if they were allowed in (which I doubt), I personally don't wish eternal damnation on anyone, but I'm going to have to go along with God is that's what He decides to do (doesn't matter anyway if I disagreed). Anyone here disagree that the ones being mentioned in Rev 6 are saints who have already died/been martyred and are currently in heaven?
\'70 million Christians\' martyred for their faith since Jesus walked the earth

If they are of the same spirit and love that the Father is, they will A.) rejoice to see justice done as the wicked are punished for their sins. B.) they will also rejoice to see when that justice comes to an end, for only a monster would rejoice over unrelenting torment which serves no purpose and C.) they will rejoice to see the punishment bring forth a corrective change in the souls of the wicked, making them to become like Christ and be fit for eternal life.

 

[Light of the East]

Marvin Knox said: ↑

In addition - we all agree that, in the end, every knee will bow to Christ to the glory of God the Father. But that does not mean the owner of every knee is saved whether it belong to fallen man or fallen angel.

The clear statement of the scripture which tells us that every knee will bow to Christ is what leads me to the opinion displayed in the first sentence above.

With regards to the second sentence - as to the not every one who bends the knee to Christ being saved - take for instance - Lucifer is not saved - ever.

I trust you don't believe that the devil will be saved.

That being the case - the point is - not every human who bends the knee will be necessarily saved either.

Here is what one saint wrote about the repentance of the devil:

Bulgakov pictured Satan as being bitterly divided between the awareness of his angelic creaturely nature on the one hand and his false pretense to be the ‘prince of this world’ on the other hand. Bulgakov asked ‘Can Satan’s battle with himself become infinite (and in this sense “eternal”), a bad infinity? Or must Satan lose his strength in this battle and at some point lay down his arms in impotence? Bulgakov’s reply was that after Satan’s expulsion from the world his resources were bound to be exhausted by this internal contradiction, the prince of darkness would give in to the power of divine love in the end.

God’s limitless mercy and the sacrifice offered by Christ extend even into the realm of the demonic.

So it will be with the soul. To see ourselves as nothing, stripped of all false pretense and ego so common in this world, is to come to a point in which the soul will desire, of its free will, to be united to Christ, no matter what in what manner it must suffer to achieve that end. We were created to be “gods,” to share the divine nature. The alternative is nothingness. Who, of their own free will, would choose that over becoming all that God made us to be, no matter what the cost in purgative and restorative punishment in the fires of God’s love?

“Here Origen, like Bulgakov, emphasizes that the torment is caused by the internal conflict between what the soul has become in its revolt against God and what God had made it to be. Bulgakov also followed Origen and Gregory of Nyssa in stressing the purgative and therapeutic rather than the retributive dimension of this type of punishment.

For Bulgakov, the triumph of God’s will meant that in the resurrection rational creatures would no longer be able to choose between good and evil, but only between the different kinds of good. The progress towards evil would become impossible; only the progress towards greater good, the passing ‘from glory to glory’ (2 Cor 3 18) would remain a possibility. Bulgakov insisted that such a state did not eliminate human freedom. On the contrary, freedom from evil is the greatest possible kind of freedom rational creatures can possess.”

Sergius Bulgakov: Hell as Universal Purgatory

 

[Robert Norminton]

Really? So you truly believe what Jesus said when He said "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood?" You really take what He said at face (literal) value and believe that the Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood?

I honestly don't know. As a Presbyterian, I'm not supposed to believe in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation. I admit I don't observe it. But does this make it so or not so?

 

[Light of the East]

Who created hell? What does God say in Scripture about Himself? Did the prophets lie? Did Jesus Himself lie? If we don't base what we believe on God's Word, but on man's traditions and lies, God isn't required to honor it.

Oh, you mean like......denying that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ as He taught when He said "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood."

Ouch!!!

 

[Light of the East]

I honestly don't know. As a Presbyterian, I'm not supposed to believe in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation. I admit I don't observe it. But does this make it so or not so?

Sir......first question. What part of "IS" do you not comprehend?

Second question: if the Apostles taught this as truth, from where did they learn it?

Third question: if those the Apostles discipled, such as Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Ignatius (among other Ante-Nicene Fathers) taught it, then from where other than Jesus did they learn it?

Forth question: If this was the common and accepted understanding of all Christians for 1500 years, who gave those who changed this understanding the authority to do so?

I think those are fair questions, and ones I had to confront when I was a Protestant Calvinist who didn't believe in the Eucharist either.

 

[Light of the East]

Love hurts.
Love means you offer others freedom to not love you back.
That's the rules of love.

Very true, sir.

But here's the rub. Can we look upon ultimate and eternal love, a love so beautiful and wonderful in all eternity, and not want it?

On earth we do not see this love in all its glory. We get little glimpses of it in a beautiful sunset, a night filled with stars, the vastness and beauty of the ocean, but the fullness of it......we just have no idea how it will look.

I think to be confronted with it will sweep away all other desires.

 

[Light of the East]

No problemo. The original is still intact.
You have saved the world with your criticism.

Fair question for you -

Why does the idea of God eventually, after fair and just punishment for sins, restoring everyone, so bother you?

 

[Light of the East]

Does Scripture say people do not experience time "in the next life"?

I don't fight people, but false doctrines.

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.13 Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.

Time does not exist in the next life? Really?

Then how does the Scripture speak of things like the saints singing hymns to the glory of God. For a song to exist, there has to be movement from one note to the next. In a timeless eternity, we would be forever stuck on one note.

 

[Doug Melven]

Oh, you mean like......denying that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ as He taught when He said "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood."

Ouch!!!

Do you realize that when Jesus spoke those words He was still using that body?
Do you understand how something can be representative of something else.
Cash is a good example. We call it money, but it is only representative of money.

Fair question for you -

Why does the idea of God eventually, after fair and just punishment for sins, restoring everyone, so bother you?

After death there is no transformation. People in hell will not want to be in God's Presence. They prefer darkness.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Doug Melven, Do you realize that when Jesus spoke those words He was still using that body?

Not only do you totally duck the meaning of the word "IS," .....so what? Do you or do you not believe in a God who works miracles beyond our comprehension? I guess not.

For instance, in the Apocalypse, it speaks of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. How can that be? How can Christ be slain before the foundation of the world, having not even taken His Flesh yet?

Do you understand how something can be representative of something else.
Cash is a good example. We call it money, but it is only representative of money.


After death there is no transformation. People in hell will not want to be in God's Presence. They prefer darkness.

And you know this how? You have been on the other side of death? Or you have a personal revelation from an angel?

Because nothing in the Scriptures speaks of the state of men or their ability or inability to repent in the next age.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Oh, you mean like......denying that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ as He taught when He said "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood."

Ouch!!!

While your response is unrelated to the discussion at hand, your comment is certainly valid. If Jesus meant those words to be taken the way your tradition interprets it, then protestant believers are certainly missing out by not partaking of the Eucharist as often.

 

[Light of the East]

While your response is unrelated to the discussion at hand, your comment is certainly valid. If Jesus meant those words to be taken the way your tradition interprets it, then protestant believers are certainly missing out by not partaking of the Eucharist as often.

I think a good question to ask is this: Why did the first fifteen centuries of Christians believe that the Eucharist is truly the very Body and Blood of Christ without any exception? The idea of a "bare memorial meal" really didn't start until the 16th century.

When I was confronted with this as a Protestant by reading the writings of the Early Fathers, I suddenly realized that I hadn't been given "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," but rather someone's interpretation and opinion which didn't jive with the teaching of the Early Church.

 

[Der Alte]

Good grief! You can't even believe and obey those scriptures which are given to you, and yet you turn around and demand scriptures from others.
When you obey "This IS my Body....this IS my Blood" then will you have some sort of spiritual authority from which to criticize how others interpret the Bible.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Luke 6:37
(37) "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

 

[Der Alte]

I think a good question to ask is this: Why did the first fifteen centuries of Christians believe that the Eucharist is truly the very Body and Blood of Christ without any exception? The idea of a "bare memorial meal" really didn't start until the 16th century.
When I was confronted with this as a Protestant by reading the writings of the Early Fathers, I suddenly realized that I hadn't been given "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," but rather someone's interpretation and opinion which didn't jive with the teaching of the Early Church.

When one cites a source it is customary to identify the source, who, when, page, paragraph etc.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I think a good question to ask is this: Why did the first fifteen centuries of Christians believe that the Eucharist is truly the very Body and Blood of Christ without any exception? The idea of a "bare memorial meal" really didn't start until the 16th century.

When I was confronted with this as a Protestant by reading the writings of the Early Fathers, I suddenly realized that I hadn't been given "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," but rather someone's interpretation and opinion which didn't jive with the teaching of the Early Church.

But, I am also aware of catholic traditions that don't jive with Scripture. And, so did were those who started the protestant movement.

All I can tell you is that God chose to wake me up. He didn't wake me up because of the church I attended, nor through any other church. He woke me up through His Scriptures. That is why I am open to challenging any beliefs. But, I don't trust tradition that changes over time, as different people are in charge. And, barring God leading me there, I won't.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<LotE>I think a good question to ask is this: Why did the first fifteen centuries of Christians believe that the Eucharist is truly the very Body and Blood of Christ without any exception? The idea of a "bare memorial meal" really didn't start until the 16th century.
When I was confronted with this as a Protestant by reading the writings of the Early Fathers, I suddenly realized that I hadn't been given "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," but rather someone's interpretation and opinion which didn't jive with the teaching of the Early Church.<end>

end

I searched my copy of the early church fathers from Clement A.D. 30-100 to Origen c. 184 – c. 253,but the only reference to this topic I could find is this one from Tertullian.

Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book IV
Chap. XL
When He so earnestly expressed His desire to eat the passover, He considered it His own feast; for it would have been unworthy of God to desire to partake of what was not His own. Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, “This is my body, that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body.​

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Really? So God commands us to practice lex talionis punishment, that is, the crime fits the punishment, but He Himself is not subject to what He commands us to practice? And yet we are supposed to be like Him?

So tell me, what sin is worthy of (equal to) an eternity of never-ending torment? And to what purpose is such never-ending punishment?

But the Fearful, and Unbelieving, and The Abominable, and Murderers, and Whoremongers, and Sorcerers, and Idolaters, and All liars, Shall Have Their Part In The Lake Which Burneth With Fire And Brimstone: which is the second death.
• Revelation 21:8



And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If Any Man Worship The Beast And His Image, And Receive His Mark In His Forehead, Or In His Hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; And He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels, And In The Presence Of The Lamb: And the smoke of Their Torment Ascendeth up For Ever and Ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
• Revelation 14:9-11