IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[Archippus]

Again, you are in error. See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, 1 John 3:15, and then see Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1, etc.

If I am in error, please tell me why anyone would need a saviour from sin concerning law they can faultlessly obey?
If I am in error, please tell me why no one can be justified by faultlessly obeying a set of laws?
If you cannot answer these questions, it simply proves your understanding of Rom3:20, and many other verses on this subject is, to put it mildly errant.

You would only need a saviour from sin concerning law that cannot be faultlessly obeyed, and the only law you cannot be justified by obeying is law you cannot faultlessly obey

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047 , Can one be declared "innocent" by faultlessly obeying the law...? Yes or No...?

You have no idea what Paul is referring to when he uses the word “law.” He is referring to the entire Covenant of the 613 Law of Moses and he is referring to “Law Alone Salvationism” that does not include God’s grace. Paul is not referring to the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers under the dispensation of grace by faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If I am in error, please tell me why anyone would need a saviour from sin concerning law they can faultlessly obey?
If I am in error, please tell me why no one can be justified by faultlessly obeying a set of laws?
If you cannot answer these questions, it simply proves your understanding of Rom3:20, and many other verses on this subject is, to put it mildly errant.

You would only need a saviour from sin concerning law that cannot be faultlessly obeyed, and the only law you cannot be justified by obeying is law you cannot faultlessly obey

Jesus wipes away past sins. That is something that "Law Alone" (or "Law Alone Salvationism") under the "Law of Moses" cannot erase. After we are forgiven of sins, we learn by Scripture that the reason WHY Christ died for us is for the purpose of making us (his church) holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and zealous of good works (Titus 3:14). Jesus is the one who helps us to overcome sin after we are saved by His death, resurrection, and mercy (See Romans 13:14).

 

[Neogaia777]

You have no idea what Paul is referring to when he uses the word “law.” He is referring to the entire Covenant of the 613 Law of Moses and he is referring to “Law Alone Salvationism” that does not include God’s grace. Paul is not referring to the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers under the dispensation of grace by faith.

Well Paul would say "no" to my question, but...

Ok, well, what is/are the commands of Jesus Christ...? And do think it is through any "command" in general that we are saved...?

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well Paul would say "no" to my question, but...

Ok, well, what is/are the commands of Jesus Christ...? And do think it is through any "command" in general that we are saved...?

God Bless!

Read Matthew 19:17. He talks of the Moral Law.

 

[Archippus]

Jesus wipes away past sins. That is something the Law Alone under the Law of Moses or Law Alone Salvationism cannot erase. After we are forgiven of sins, we learn by Scripture that the reason WHY Christ died for us is for the purpose of making us (his church) holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and zealous of good works (Titus 3:14). Jesus is the one who helps us to overcome sin after we are saved by His death, resurrection, and mercy (See Romans 13:14).

Your inability to answer the questions simply proves you will say anything and put any interpretation you like on any scripture rather than admit your error:

0 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Rom 3:20

Lets try again. Why can no one be declared righteous in Gods sight by faultlessly obeying a set of laws you say rom3:20 refers to?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have 10 commandments glasses on. Please quote me the exact verse that says Paul is talking exclusively about the 10.

Now Jason what you have written above has no truth in it whatsoever. You may need to pray more before you read the scriptures my friend. Your twisting the scriptures and taking them out of context in order to support your belief.

CONTEXT.....

Romans 2:20-25
[20], An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which have the form of knowledge and of the truth in THE LAW.

This is the same law that is being discussed in Romans 2 and Romans 3. WHAT LAW????

[21], You therefore which teach another, teach you not yourself? YOU THAT PREACH THAT A MAN SHOULD NOT STEAL, DO YOU STEAL?
[22], YOU THAT SAY A MAN SHOULD NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO YOU COMMIT ADULTERY? YOU THAT ABHOR IDOLS, DO YOU COMMIT SACRILEGE?
[23], You that make your boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonor you God?
[24], For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
[25], For circumcision truly profits, if you keep the law: but if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Now Jason what law are we talking about here? Yep PAUL is quoting the 10 Commandments. You can find them all written here * EXODUS 20:3-17

................

LET'S WORK OUR WAY FROM THE BEGINING?

ROMANS 2:6-29
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[8], But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9], Tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10], But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11], For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

ROMANS 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN

PAUL proved this earlier in ROMANS 2:6-29. Where he shows that both JEWS AND GENTILES ARE ALL UNDER SIN and stand guilty before God of breaking his LAW.

Paul says in

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the scripture does not mean what it says? The CONTEXT of ROMANS 3:20 is ROMANS 3:9-20 which is stating that all [JEWS and GENTILES] are under sin v9. There is none righteous v10. While v11-18 are emphasizing the same points as v9-10 that we are all sinners. v19-20 then build on wha was written in from verse 9 [verse 9 was in reference to ROMANS 2:3-23]. Now the overall CONTEXT here is that the law being referred to here is the 10 Commandments.

ALL are under sin 3v9. None are righteous no not one 3v10. Context.

ROMANS 3:9-20
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN; [ROMANS 2; 10 COMMANDMENTS]
[10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTOUESS NO NOT ONE:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13[, Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THINGS THE LAW SAYS, IT SAYS TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW; that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.
[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

NOTE: So it is very clear that when PAUL writes ROMANS 3:19-20 Is in reference to God's LAW (10 Commandments).

ROMANS 3:19-20 [19],
[19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

NOTE: Is in reference to the 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is. PAUL emphasizes this further in ROMANS 7..

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

NOTE: Paul says he did not know what sin was but by the law. This is what he said earlier in ROMANS 3:20 when he said that it is by God's LAW that we have a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. The law defined here is specified as the 10 Commandments as highlighted in Romans 2:4-29 and Romans 3:9-20 which specifies as examples in ROMANS 2:21-23 giving examples of stealing, adultery and Idol worship quoting the 10 commandments from Exodus 20:4-5; 14-14. Romans 7:7 is continuing this same thought by quoting the tenth commandment of you shall not covet as an example of sin if broken from Exodus 20:17.

So the law referenced here that gives us a KNOWLEDGE of sin, is indeed referring to the 10 Commandments (not nine as you teach) and not the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) for remission of sin.

Nope not much room for you to hide there buddy. The context of Romans 3:19-20 is the Ten Commandments as quoted by Paul that give us a knowledge of sin. To ignore and deny the scriptures is to ignore God's WORD.

Can you see your errors now?

Hope this helps

 

[Neogaia777]

@Jason0047, "What is the "purpose" of the law...?" And, "Does it (the Law) no longer serve a purpose when one is in the NC and is a true born again believer...?"

By "law" I mean any written rule for codes of conduct, or list of things to do and not do, that are to studiously obeyed and dutifully observed by us, by our our self efforts and will, so that we should get the credit for it...

It is written on their hearts, they just do and are, and are who they are, and are just what they are, and are pretty awesome and amazing, and do not even know they are, and they're good and loving and kind caring compassionate, all that... The sheep on the right have no recollection of it... They're not trying to dutifully and studiously do or observe anything other than what is in their heart... I wonder if this is not what it is like to walk or live by the Spirit (H.S)...? It is supposed to be like "wind" or moving air that can carry you along in it's flow occasionally...

It certainly doesn't sound like these ones even necessarily may have even had "religion"... They just are good and do and be and are "good" cause of good cause they are good, and because that's the way they were made...




Anyway, Jason, "What is the purpose of the law...?" "And, "Does it (the Law) no longer serve a purpose when one is in the NC and is a true born again believer...?

God Bless!

 

[Archippus]

Well Paul would say "no" to my question, but...

Ok, well, what is/are the commands of Jesus Christ...? And do think it is through any "command" in general that we are saved...?

God Bless!

People may state publically on this website, in order to be justified before God as a Christian you must obey all of Christ's literal commands in the Gospels, you must fully obey the moral law and you must obey all of the Apostles teachings. However, when you then ask them if they themselves obey each and every literal command of Christ they go silent, no answer. It is always the same with these people. They demand of you what they do not demand of themselves. And they will crush you with impossible burdens if you let them. Sound familiar?

 

[Neogaia777]

People may state publically on this website, in order to be justified before God as a Christian you must obey all of Christ's literal commands in the Gospels, you must fully obey the moral law and you must obey all of the Apostles teachings. However, when you then ask them if they themselves obey each and every literal command of Christ they go silent, no answer. It is always the same with these people. They demand of you what they do not demand of themselves. And they will crush you with impossible burdens if you let them. Sound familiar?

Yes it does...

"You Must have a Good Heart" wonder if that could be a command...? A Good Soul... A Pure Spirit... And Like I said, A Good Heart...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your inability to answer the questions simply proves you will say anything and put any interpretation you like on any scripture rather than admit your error:

0 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Rom 3:20

Lets try again. Why can no one be declared righteous in Gods sight by faultlessly obeying a set of laws you say rom3:20 refers to?

Paul is talking about “Law Alone” (without God’s grace). How so? Because that is what is in view in regards to Paul fighting against the false teaching of “Circumcision Salvationism” from the Law of Moses. For if someone believes they have to be circumcised in order to be initially saved with God, they are being justified or saved by “Law Alone.” Not that you will probably read the following verses, but please see: Romans 2:25, Romans 2:28, Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 in order to see what I am talking about. Just hover your mouse over the verses to see what they say.

Also, you falsely believe we can break the Moral Law and be saved after we receive God’s grace through faith because these laws were present in the Law of Moses. But Paul says there are those who perished without the Law in Romans 2:12.

God is not a respecter of persons (Romans 2:11).

For there is...

“Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Romans 2:9).

I mean, if God could not condemn a Christian over one sin, then He would have to apologize to Adam and Eve. For how does the fear of God even work in your belief? Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

 

[Archippus]

Paul is talking about “Law Alone” (without God’s grace). How so? Because that is what is in view in regards to Paul fighting against the false teaching of “Circumcision Salvationism” from the Law of Moses. For if someone believes they have to be circumcised in order to be initially saved with God, they are being justified or saved by “Law Alone.” Not that you will probably read the following verses, but please see: Romans 2:25, Romans 2:28, Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 in order to see what I am talking about. Just hover your mouse over the verses to see what they say.

Also, you falsely believe we can break the Moral Law and be saved after we receive God’s grace through faith because these laws were present in the Law of Moses. But Paul says there are those who perished without the Law in Romans 2:12.

God is not a respecter of persons (Romans 2:11).

For there is...

“Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Romans 2:9).

I mean, God could not condemn a Christian over one sin, then He would have to apologize to Adam and Eve. For how does the fear of God even work in your belief? Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

When you answer the question we can continue. Why can anyone not be declared righteous in God's sight by faultlessly obeying a set of laws you say Rom3:20 refers to

 

[Archippus]

Also, you falsely believe we can break the Moral Law and be saved after we receive God’s grace through faith

Assuredly Jason you break the moral law, so according to your standard you are not saved. I am simply using your stated belief here, nothing more

 

[Archippus]

Some would do well to remember:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

 

[Archippus]

Paul is talking about “Law Alone” (without God’s grace). How so? Because that is what is in view in regards to Paul fighting against the false teaching of “Circumcision Salvationism” from the Law of Moses. For if someone believes they have to be circumcised in order to be initially saved with God, they are being justified or saved by “Law Alone.” Not that you will probably read the following verses, but please see: Romans 2:25, Romans 2:28, Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 in order to see what I am talking about. Just hover your mouse over the verses to see what they say.

Also, you falsely believe we can break the Moral Law and be saved after we receive God’s grace through faith because these laws were present in the Law of Moses. But Paul says there are those who perished without the Law in Romans 2:12.

God is not a respecter of persons (Romans 2:11).

For there is...

“Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Romans 2:9).

I mean, if God could not condemn a Christian over one sin, then He would have to apologize to Adam and Eve. For how does the fear of God even work in your belief? Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

I will answer the question for you, as you refuse to answer it. If you can faultlessly obey a set of laws you can be justified by obeying them. Therefore, if you are correct, and rom3:20 solely refers to non applicable, non moral old covenant law, Paul lied in what he wrote.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes it does...

"You Must have a Good Heart" wonder if that could be a command...? A Good Soul... A Pure Spirit... And Like I said, A Good Heart...

God Bless!

And have and keep Faith, and be thankful and grateful, and be humble...

Do these things, and just see if your sins are not being or are going to be affected...

And if they are affected, you may find it much more better, higher and much more effective way to deal with and conquer and overcome your sins, than what you were doing and were trying previously or prior to that...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Assuredly Jason you break the moral law, so according to your standard you are not saved. I am simply using your stated belief here, nothing more

1 John 1:9 is how you can be forgiven if do happen to honestly stumble into sin and not out of some false belief that you can never stop sinning. My guess is that you don’t truly believe 1 John 1:9. It is highly probable that you don’t actually believe you are forgiven of sin if you confess your sin. How can you? For in your belief, you believe all future sin is forgiven you.

If God forgives, then your sin is no more.
But you believe that a believer can have a mentality that they will sin again as a matter of fact. But God cannot agree with this thinking because God is holy and good. For we are to have the mind of Christ and not a sinful human who justifies sin.

 

[Archippus]

1 John 1:9 is how you can be forgiven if do happen to honestly stumble into sin and not out of some false belief that you can never stop sinning. My guess is that you don’t truly believe 1 John 1:9. It is highly probable that you don’t actually believe you are forgiven of sin if you confess your sin. How can you? For in your belief, you believe all future sin is forgiven you.

If God forgives, then your sin is no more.
But you believe that a believer can have a mentality that they will sin again as a matter of fact. But God cannot agree with this thinking because God is holy and good. For we are to have the mind of Christ and not a sinful human who justifies sin.

You are now contradicting yourself. Previously you stated you cannot be saved if you break the moral law, now you say you can be forgiven if you do. Your threshold of what is and is not sin/breaking the moral law must be extremely low. Mine never has been. It is as if two different versions of Christianity exist

 

[Archippus]

Paul stated:
The letter kills(present tense) 2Cor3:6 He wrote that to Christians concerning the Ten Commandments/moral law. Some seem to disagree with him. However, Paul of course understood the full demands of that law. It amazes me how anyone who has that law written in their mind and placed on their heart does not understand the full demands of that law. How is that possible?

 

[Archippus]

1 John 1:9 is how you can be forgiven if do happen to honestly stumble into sin and not out of some false belief that you can never stop sinning. My guess is that you don’t truly believe 1 John 1:9. It is highly probable that you don’t actually believe you are forgiven of sin if you confess your sin. How can you? For in your belief, you believe all future sin is forgiven you.

If God forgives, then your sin is no more.
But you believe that a believer can have a mentality that they will sin again as a matter of fact. But God cannot agree with this thinking because God is holy and good. For we are to have the mind of Christ and not a sinful human who justifies sin.

When I became a Christian, I became conscious of my sin in my heart for the first time in my life. I had inner conviction of it, for the law was placed in my heart and mind. At times I got angry(I was young) I knew it was sin/breaking the law. I had unkind/negative thoughts about others, I was breaking the law again. I had impure thoughts, I breaking the law again. I did not love many people in my heart(I didn't hate them), that would be especially true of any enemy, those who were unkind to me. I was breaking the moral law yet again. Are you seriously stating you have transcended all of this? I had felt alive once without the law, for there was no condemnation then, but when the law was placed inside of me, sin consciousness sprang to life and I died, felt condemned...…

I am no time traveller BTW. Its all there in romans ch7