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IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)
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Archippus
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I don't take offence at you, I am sure you believe sincerely you are correct. However, though this subject interests me to discuss, I cannot see it getting anywhere. You have very strange beliefs, to put it mildly.
You appear unable to explain to me how law that could be faultlessly obeyed is in your view the letter that kills, and this law you cannot be righteous by observing. I'm afraid this is a nonsensical belief. For if you can faultlessly obey certain law, you could most certainly be justified by obeying it. This is obviously true, but you refuse to acknowledge it
You then state if a person hates any sin in their life(for none are perfect) it is as bad as choosing to live a wilfull life of sin without conscience. I'm sorry, but this is another crazy statement. You condemn yourself with such words. You have been given ample proof the letter that kills is the moral law of the Ten Commandments, for that was the only law engraved in stone. Yet again, you refuse to accept it.
I truly do not mean this unkindly, but the problem here is, you have not come with an open mind but the belief you are right and anyone who disagrees with you has to be wrong. Therefore, no matter what you are shown, or told you must always refuse to accept it. You are by no means the only one like this on internet debating websites, but in truth it makes helpful discussion redundant. It just becomes a scripture quoting contest.
Your view that if you have no righteousness of observing the law gives you a licence to sin greatly disturbs me. I understand the rational mind could come to that conclusion, and does, but if anyone believes they have a licence to sin if they have no righteousness of observing the law, they are in grave difficulty.
Firstly, such a person could not in their heart love God, for no one sets out to offend the one they love do they. Also, how can anyone have been truly born again if they believe no righteousness of observing the law gives them a licence to sin? The law God desires a believer to follow is placed in their heart, meaning in their heart they want to obey it. Such a person could never view no righteousness of observing the law as a licence to sin, that is just not possible.
There is reeling off the letter of what is written, and discerning the true message in it, and never the twain shall meet. So there is no usefulness in us continuing our discussion I am afraid.
You said you wished I knew the mystery of obeying God's commands. I do. I have personal experience. You have to die to believing you can be righteous by obeying the law. That is scriptural according to Paul's message. A message I truly wish you could understand
God bless
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Well that does not seem to be true. Why then have you not replied to my posts that have gone through your posts section by section and scripture by scripture shwonig that you have taken scripture out of context?
All theses posts here are reply posts to your posts discussing God's 10 Commandments including the Sabbath and you have simply ignored them.
*Post # 199 linked click me;
*Post # 200 linked click me;
*Post # 219 linked click me;
*Post # 486 linked click me;
*Post # 487 linked click me;
*Post # 511 linked click me;
*Post # 561 linked click me;
*Post # 562 linked click me;
*Post # 563 linked click me;
*Post # 762 linked click me;
*Post # 763 linked click me;
*Post # 764 linked click me;
*Post # 765 linked click me;
You have a lot of catching up to do if you want to discuss them?
Let me know when your ready
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Hello Jason, I must have missed this.
I must say though, am not sure why you have written this long post however? (sorry I have to leave most of it out as it was not relevant to fit my post in here. Post # 838 linked). Is this post a general cut & paste? It does not address my earlier post to you and it also all over the place trying to discuss topics my earlier post is not discussing or claiming.
I have never said...
1. We are not saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)
2. We are saved by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16)
3. Salvation does not have the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's LAW through faith (Romans 3:31)
4. Who says that Romans 3:10 applied to life after faith? Not me.
5. You start talking OLD COVENANT and laws but do not state what your referring to.
6. Who is saying that salvation is not from sin (breaking God's commandments)? Not me.
Everything you have quoted as new COVENANT commands are from OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. The above here is the majority of your post so I will not discuss it in this one.
Now I am assuming this post of yours is a general cut & paste post. Did you want to start be discussing one topic area at a time?
Let's start with your claims here...
Jason you do know that there is no chapters in these letter right and that ROMANS 3 and a continuation of Romans 2? Let's start show the context of these scriptures...
ROMANS 2:6-29
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[8], But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9], Tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10], But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11], For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
ROMANS 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN
PAUL proved this earlier in ROMANS 2:6-29. Where he shows that both JEWS AND GENTILES ARE ALL UNDER SIN and stand guilty before God of breaking his LAW.
Paul says in
ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the scripture does not mean what it says? The CONTEXT of ROMANS 3:20 is ROMANS 3:9-20 which is stating that all [JEWS and GENTILES] are under sin v9. There is none righteous v10. While v11-18 are emphasizing the same points as v9-10 that we are all sinners. v19-20 then build on wha was written in from verse 9 [verse 9 was in reference to ROMANS 2:3-23]. Now the overall CONTEXT here is that the law being referred to here is the 10 Commandments.
ALL are under sin 3v9. None are righteous no not one 3v10. Context..
LET'S DETERMINE WHAT LAW IS BEING DISCUSSED IN ROMANS 3 CONTEXT IS END OF ROMANS 2
ROMANS 2:21-29 [21],
[21], You therefore which teach another, teach you not yourself? you that preach a man should not steal, do you steal?
[22], You that say a man should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? you that abhor idols, do you commit sacrilege?
[23], You that make your boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonor you God?
[24], For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
[25], For circumcision truly profits, if you keep the law: but if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.
NOTE: How is your circumcision made uncircumcision? By breaking the 10 commandments! Which law is being discussed now? 10 Commandment
[26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?
[28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
NOTE: So it is very clear that when PAUL writes ROMANS 3:19-20 Is in reference to God's LAW (10 Commandments).
ROMANS 3:19-20 [19],
[19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
NOTE: Is in reference to the 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is. PAUL emphasizes this further in ROMANS 7..
ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.
NOTE: Paul says he did not know what sin was but by the law. This is what he said earlier in ROMANS 3:20 when he said that it is by God's LAW that we have a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. The law defined here is specified as the 10 Commandments as highlighted in Romans 2:4-29 and Romans 3:9-20 which specifies as examples in ROMANS 2:21-23 giving examples of stealing, adultery and Idol worship quoting the 10 commandments from Exodus 20:4-5; 14-14. Romans 7:7 is continuing this same thought by quoting the tenth commandment of you shall not covet as an example of sin if broken from Exodus 20:17.
So the law referenced here that gives us a KNOWLEDGE of sin, is indeed referring to the 10 Commandments (not nine as you teach) and not the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) for remission of sin.
Happy to provide more scripture on the topic but I believe there is no point. You may need to revisit your bible Brother Jason. As to the other things your proclaiming how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you are yet to understand what the OLD COVENANT was? The OLD TESTAMENT scriptures are the key that unlocks the NEW. If you have lost your key how can you open a locked door * JOHN 10:9?
Sorry Jason, God's WORD disagrees with your teachings.
Hope this helps
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Well that does not seem to be true. Why then have you not replied to my posts that have gone through your posts section by section and scripture by scripture shwonig that you have taken scripture out of context?
All theses posts here are reply posts to your posts discussing God's 10 Commandments including the Sabbath and you have simply ignored them.
*Post # 199 linked click me;
*Post # 200 linked click me;
*Post # 219 linked click me;
*Post # 486 linked click me;
*Post # 487 linked click me;
*Post # 511 linked click me;
*Post # 561 linked click me;
*Post # 562 linked click me;
*Post # 563 linked click me;
*Post # 762 linked click me;
*Post # 763 linked click me;
*Post # 764 linked click me;
*Post # 765 linked click me;
You have a lot of catching up to do if you want to discuss them?
Let me know when your ready
If you cannot speak to me in the here and now instead of giving me post links, I am not going to bother reading such a post. One post link is okay, but a ton of them? That is just ridiculous. Nobody is going to read these kinds of links. Talk to me like a human being please.
As for copying and pasting:
Yes, I did provide a list of verses from my own study found inside the spoiler button. This is not meant to be a general habit that fills up the majority of my posts like you have done many times over. I was merely showing you that we are also saved by works of God done through us (the Moral Law) after we saved by God's grace. The verses I presented within that spoiler button proves that point. Most today try to skate around these verses and make them say something different. But what they are really doing is denying the plain meaning of what these verses say. No believer can justify grievous sin and still be saved. Yes, believers can honestly stumble on occasion into sin, but they do not plan on doing that and they never expect that they cannot help but to do that as a matter of fact because they are imperfect.
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Hello Jason, I must have missed this.
I must say though, am not sure why you have written this long post however? (sorry I have to leave most of it out as it was not relevant to fit my post in here. Post # 838 linked). Is this post a general cut & paste? It does not address my earlier post to you and it also all over the place trying to discuss topics my earlier post is not discussing or claiming.
I have never said...
1. We are not saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)
2. We are saved by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16)
3. Salvation does not have the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's LAW through faith (Romans 3:31)
4. Who says that Romans 3:10 applied to life after faith? Not me.
5. You start talking OLD COVENANT and laws but do not state what your referring to.
6. Who is saying that salvation is not from sin (breaking God's commandments)? Not me.
Everything you have quoted as new COVENANT commands are from OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. The above here is the majority of your post so I will not discuss it in this one.
Now I am assuming this post of yours is a general cut & paste post. Did you want to start be discussing one topic area at a time?
Let's start with your claims here...
Jason you do know that there is no chapters in these letter right and that ROMANS 3 and a continuation of Romans 2? Let's start show the context of these scriptures...
ROMANS 2:6-29
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7], To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[8], But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9], Tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10], But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11], For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
ROMANS 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no way: FOR WE HAVE PROVED BOTH JEW AND GREEK, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN
PAUL proved this earlier in ROMANS 2:6-29. Where he shows that both JEWS AND GENTILES ARE ALL UNDER SIN and stand guilty before God of breaking his LAW.
Paul says in
ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the scripture does not mean what it says? The CONTEXT of ROMANS 3:20 is ROMANS 3:9-20 which is stating that all [JEWS and GENTILES] are under sin v9. There is none righteous v10. While v11-18 are emphasizing the same points as v9-10 that we are all sinners. v19-20 then build on wha was written in from verse 9 [verse 9 was in reference to ROMANS 2:3-23]. Now the overall CONTEXT here is that the law being referred to here is the 10 Commandments.
ALL are under sin 3v9. None are righteous no not one 3v10. Context..
LET'S DETERMINE WHAT LAW IS BEING DISCUSSED IN ROMANS 3 CONTEXT IS END OF ROMANS 2
ROMANS 2:21-29 [21],
[21], You therefore which teach another, teach you not yourself? you that preach a man should not steal, do you steal?
[22], You that say a man should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? you that abhor idols, do you commit sacrilege?
[23], You that make your boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonor you God?
[24], For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
[25], For circumcision truly profits, if you keep the law: but if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.
NOTE: How is your circumcision made uncircumcision? By breaking the 10 commandments! Which law is being discussed now? 10 Commandment
[26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?
[28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
NOTE: So it is very clear that when PAUL writes ROMANS 3:19-20 Is in reference to God's LAW (10 Commandments).
ROMANS 3:19-20 [19],
[19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
NOTE: Is in reference to the 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is. PAUL emphasizes this further in ROMANS 7..
ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.
NOTE: Paul says he did not know what sin was but by the law. This is what he said earlier in ROMANS 3:20 when he said that it is by God's LAW that we have a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. The law defined here is specified as the 10 Commandments as highlighted in Romans 2:4-29 and Romans 3:9-20 which specifies as examples in ROMANS 2:21-23 giving examples of stealing, adultery and Idol worship quoting the 10 commandments from Exodus 20:4-5; 14-14. Romans 7:7 is continuing this same thought by quoting the tenth commandment of you shall not covet as an example of sin if broken from Exodus 20:17.
So the law referenced here that gives us a KNOWLEDGE of sin, is indeed referring to the 10 Commandments (not nine as you teach) and not the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) for remission of sin.
Happy to provide more scripture on the topic but I believe there is no point. You may need to revisit your bible Brother Jason. As to the other things your proclaiming how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you are yet to understand what the OLD COVENANT was? The OLD TESTAMENT scriptures are the key that unlocks the NEW. If you have lost your key how can you open a locked door * JOHN 10:9?
Sorry Jason, God's WORD disagrees with your teachings.
Hope this helps
Again, the problem is "Circumcision Salvationism" here. Paul does not refer to the 10 commandments within the verses you posted. That is you leaping to conclusions. Paul does not discuss the Sabbath in Romans 2. Paul refers to the Law of Moses and the Law of Faith in Romans 2. In Romans 2, Paul is talking about the Moral Law (not the Sabbath) because it applies in both the Old and New Covenants. Paul's point (that you ignore) is Romans 3:1. He says what profit is there in circumcision? Galatians 5:2 says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Then Paul talks about the Law. In Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24 they address the heresy of going back to circumcision so as to be saved and in trying to be saved by the Law of Moses. The Sabbath is of the Law of Moses and it is not a command that is clearly repeated in the New Covenant. Certain individuals obeying the Sabbath does not mean it is a command; And I already showed you before the Sabbath command is nowhere to be found in Hebrews 4. So none of the verses you cite from the New Testament are talking exclusively of the 10 commandments alone.
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No offense, but I find your belief strange because I feel it is immoral.
The goodness of God is not upheld by your kind of belief.
It is the kind of belief that makes excuses for sin and turns God's grace into a license for immorality (Because it says that we will always sin as a matter of fact and yet salvation is still automatically there for you).
Oh, and when Paul talked about the "Law" he was referring to the Law of Moses and or Law Alone. Paul was NOT referring to the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers after we are saved by God's grace (Including the Moral Law). Yes, Paul mentions the Moral Law and how he could not keep it, but his point is that he was trying to do this without Jesus and or faith. In fact, certain commands or laws in the New Testament actually deal with God's grace. 1 John 3:23 is a law or command that says we are to believe on Jesus. So yes. We are justified or saved by this law. There is the Law of Faith (Romans 3:27). Are we not saved by God's grace through faith? We sure are. So this law does play part in our salvation. Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says that God commands all men everywhere to repent. Is this a law dealing with salvation? You betcha. For Jesus says for us to repent or we will perish (See Luke 13:3).
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God calls us unto salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. So it is not just one or the other. You need both. That is what the verse says. If you want to argue with God's Word and say that it doesn't say that, then by all means. Feel free to change what God's Word says. But I would not want be in your shoes.
Side Note:
As for overcoming sin:
There are ways to overcome sin according to Scripture.
But first you need to read those verses that talk about them and then believe them. I would check out Pastor Alan Ballou if you are interested:
http://www.howtostopsinning.com/should_we_stop_sinning.php
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Hi Jason this post is a good example of not replying to the post sent you and only shows you did not read the post you are trying to respond to.
Please show how the post you are responding to is not talking about the 10 Commandments when PAUL makes it very clear that he is talking directly about all the world being under sin 3v9; 19 with Paul saying that it is through the law that we have a knowledge of what sin is in v20 and the context of Romans 3 is Romans 2 which is using examples specifically from the 10 Commandments in 2v21-29. You have also not directly responded to my post section by section as I do for you and your making blanket statements also ignoring that fact that Paul further shows in Romans 7:7 exactly what he is referring to in Romans 3:20 by saying
ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.
Now if PAUL is quoting the CONTEXT of ROMANS 3 as all are under SIN in 3v9-10 and in Romans 2:21-29 is quoting examples of the 10 commandments. What LAW do you think he is talking about in relation to the law giving us a knowledge of what sin is in v20 then leaving no doublt in Romans 7:7?
Now Jason you have been provided prrof texts showing that Romans 3:20 is talking about the 10 Commandments from Romans 2:6-29 and again in Romans 3:9-20 and again in Romans 7:7. How is it then that you can say that saying that Romans 3:20 is the 10 Commandments when PAUL is quoting them as CONTEXT to his meaning of "the LAW" is jumping to conclusions? Sorry Jason God's WORD disagrees with you. You cannot make sweeping statement that are not supported by scriptures.
Pauls statement is the breaking the 10 Commandments give us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11, 1 John 3:4). Romans 3:20 context of the 10 Commandments is confirmed in Romans 2:6-29 and Romans 3:9-20.
Now how many commandments are there in the 10 Commandments? (Scripture please?)
EXODUS 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote on the tables the words of the covenant, the TEN COMMANDMENTS
DEUTERONOMY 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS ; and he wrote them on two tables of stone.
DEUTERONOMY 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the TEN COMMANDMENTS , which the LORD spoke to you in the mount out of the middle of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them to me.
Now please show me (scripture only) where does it say 9 commandments in God's WORD?
I do not ignore Romans 3:1 at all. There is no chapters in these books. Romans 3 is a continuation of Romans 2. Romans 3:1 is a continuation of discussion from Romans 2:21-29 where Paul is showing that the keeping of the 10 Commandments represents true CIRCUMCISION and breaking the 10 Commandments represents UNCIRCUMCISION and points to the NEW COVENANT promise of a new heart. In Romans 3:1-2, Paul is continuing the same topic of discussion by saying that the shadow sign of CIRCUMCISION [pointing to a new heart], are an advantage to the JEWS because they were the ones that received the WORD of God and this is what it was to teach them.
Paul is quoting CIRCUMCSION as representing a NEW HEART under the NEW COVENANT. This is nothing new as it was repeated in the OLD TESTAMENT representing our duty of LOVE to God to obey him.
DEUTERONOMY 30 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.
JEREMIAH 4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
DEUTERONOMY 10 [16] CIRCUMCISE therefore THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.
NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…
ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.
1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.
Can you see your error here?
Now this is were you seem confused. The MORAL law is the 10 Commandments. The first four commandments are our duty of LOVE to GOD and the second six are our duty of LOVE to our neighbour.
WEBSTERS DICTIONARY
MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]
1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness.
Keep at the least within the compass of moral actions, which have in them vice or virtue.
Mankind is broken loose from moral bands.
Can you see your error hear?
Your missing the point and chapter and scripture context again of Romans 2 (see above)
No brother that has no truth in it. God's WORD says, God's LAW (10 Commandments) are God's LAW as he has full ownership. He was the one who made them to God's people. He was the one who spoke them and wrote them on two tables of stone. There are 10 Commandments in the 10 commandments that God wrote. Not 613 or 9 (Exodus 32:16; Exodus 20:1-17; Deuteronomy 4:13). There are 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172)
Hope this helps
(please address the post seciton by section and scripture by scripture as I have done for you. thanks)
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Now Jason, let's be honest now here please. I did not copy paste bible study documents like you have in respoense to any of your posts [only what I had known in study earlier].
All your posts were addressed section by section and scripture by scripture.
I read and responded to all your posts in the linked posts provided above. You can tell when someone copies and paste documents that try to reply to another persons post as much of the content has nothing to do with the post it is responding to. This is what yours was doing. Now find something similar in any of the posts I have provided to you?
All the linked posts that you have ingored adresses all of your posts section by section and scripture by scripture showing you have left out context from your posts. Disagree? Then respond to the posts section by section and scripture by scripture as has been done for you?
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No, you didn't prove anything in relation to Hebrews 4. I responded to your post and you ignored the post that I provided that shows you have left scripture context once again from your post where it is discussing God's Sabbath. Here let me re-post it again for you maybe you can respoind to it now instead of ignoring it?
This was posted earlier as a response to your post showing what you left out (from post # 565)
............
Jason, I do not disagree that HEBREWS 4 is discussing the gospel in fact I have always believed that. However, there is some things you have not picked up on in HEBREWS 4 that have direct application to God’s 4th Commandment SEVETH DAY SABBATH from creation. Let’s look at the scriptures with the agreement that Hebrews 4 is about the GOSPEL rest but is also referring to God’s SABBATH rest…
………………
HEBREWS 3 AND HEBREWS 4 THE GOSPEL AND THE SABBABTH
HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4. These chapters also link very nicely into PSLAMS 95 if you have some time to read it but we will not touch on PSALMS 95 in this post.
For this post let's look at HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4 and within Chapter and Scripture context highlighting what the scriptures are saying...
Hebrews 3
[8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
[11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into MY REST.
[12], Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
..............
KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 3
v8-10 God's people in the wilderness erred and hardened their hearts not knowing God's ways
v11 Because they hardened their hearts not knowing God's way God was angry and did not let them enter HIS REST
v13 Hardness of heart comes from the deceitfulness of SIN (breaking God's LAW)
v19 God's people did not enter into God's REST because of UNBELIEF
..............
WHAT IS HIS REST (God's) IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?
HEBREWS 4
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:1-5
NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD [the GOSPEL] enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do not enter into that rest.
[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].
KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9
Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”
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INTERLINEAR HEBREWS 4:9
αρα απολειπεται σαββατισμος τω λαω του θεου
So then there remains a Sabbath rest to the people - of God
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Parallel translations of HEBREWS 4:9
New International Version
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
English Standard Version
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Berean Study Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Berean Literal Bible
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
New American Standard Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.
International Standard Version
There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God to keep,
NET Bible
Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
New Heart English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
New American Standard 1977
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
American Standard Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Darby Bible Translation
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.
English Revised Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Weymouth New Testament
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.
World English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Young's Literal Translation
there doth remain, then, a Sabbatic rest to the people of God,
................
continuing...
[10], For he that is entered into his rest (v9 SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (Heb 3).
................
CONCLUSION: Yep lots of scripture here showing that if you do not enter into God's Gospel rest you cannot enter his SABBATH REST. v 1-4 is the context of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH confirmed in v9-11 Hebrews 3-4 is talking about the Gospel and the keeping of God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. "There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" v9-11. HEBREWS 4 supports the keeping of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH by believing and following the Word of God.
...............
WORD MEANING FOR REST (out of interest)
Now let's compare Matthew 11:28-30 with Hebrews 4
MATTHEW 11:28-30 [28], Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29], Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. [30], For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
STRONGS GREEK REST meaning; G373 ἀναπαύω anapauo (a-na-pav'-ō) v. 1. (reflexively) to repose, to rest. 2. (literally or figuratively) to be exempt, to remain. 3. (by implication) to refresh. [from G303 and G3973] KJV: take ease, refresh, (give, take) rest Root(s): G303, G3973
G303 ἀνά ana (a-na') prep. 1. (properly) up. 2. (by extension, used distributively) amidst or severally, etc. 3. (by implication, as a prefix) (it often means) repetition (again), intensity, reversal, etc. 4. apiece. 5. (of combined motion) back. 6. (with G3319) through (the midst).
G3973 παύω pauo (pav'-ō) v. to stop, i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end.
{transitively or intransitively} [a primary verb (“pause”)] KJV: cease, leave, refrain
....................
Now compare this GREEK word used here to the one used in Hebrews 4:9...
HEBREWS 4:9 SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH
The Greek Word used here is different.
STRONGS GREEK/HEBERW REST meaning of Hebrews 4:9; G4520 σαββατισμός sabbatismos (sab-ba-tiz-mos') n. 1. a “sabbatism.” 2. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven). [from a derivative of G4521] σάββατον sabbaton (saɓ'-ɓa-ton) n. 1. the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath). 2. a day of weekly repose from secular avocations. 3. the observance or institution itself. 4. (by extension) a week, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths. 5. likewise the plural in all the above applications.
[of Hebrew origin (H7676)] שַׁבָּת shabbath (shab-bawth') n-e. 1. intermission, a period of temporary rest. 2. (specifically) the Sabbath, the seventh day being the day of rest.
[intensive from H7673] H7673 שָׁבַת shabath (shaw-ɓath') v. to repose, i.e. to cease from exertion. {used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific)} [a primitive root] KJV: (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep sabbath, suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.
....................
As you can see from the different GREEK words used in Matthew 11:28 and Hebrews 4:9 both words are indeed different and have a different application.
Both are similar referring to rest but the word REST in Hebrews 4:9 in is reference "Sabbatismos" which is the "REST" specifically found in God's Sabbath the 4th Commandment that refers right back the Hebrew WORD used for rest in Genesis 2.
Let's look at the origin of the Sabbath and God's 4th Commandment...
GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2], And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [3], And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
[intensive from H7673] H7673 שָׁבַת shabath (shaw-ɓath') v. to repose, i.e. to cease from exertion. {used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific)} [a primitive root] KJV: (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep sabbath, suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.
The above HEBREW meaning is the base root of Sabbatismos from the GREEK word used in Hebrews 4:9 which is referring right back to the origin of God's Sabbath in Genesis 2 and God's 4th Commandment in Exodus 20:8-11.
The meaning here is the REST that comes specifically from BELIEVING and OBEYING Gods WORD' from God's 4th Commandment Sabbath. This is the SABBATH rest according to the commandment.
......................
Those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
.......................
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.
Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?
In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
So in summary no one enters into GOD'S REST of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH without first entering into the GOSPEL REST of BELIEVING and FOLLOWING his WORD.
Hope this helps Jason
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Archippus
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I find some of what you write quite confusing. On the one hand you say when Paul wrote of law he wrote of the law of Moses or law alone. I take it from that you now admit Paul did not limit his statements to only the legalistic law. You then say Paul was not writing of Jesus or his followers commands(including the moral law)after we are saved.
Yes he does, for you can only be found among sinners if you break applicable law:
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker.
Gal2:15-18
You get saved instantaneously upon coming to Christ, in the above it is not speaking of an instantaneous event in ones life but a period of time. Paul makes clear a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. He does not say just some law, but law. And while believers are in Christ, they can be found among the sinners, so your views are wrong I am afraid
OK when you speak of law we are saved or justified by, and include repentance and faith in that, I find it a bit puzzling. So would Paul. He obvioiusly was not thinking along your lines when he wrote:
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:21&22
or:
we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law Rom3:28
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – 9 not by works, so that no one can boast Eph2:8&9
Of course you are entitled to your view that faith and repentance are laws if you like, but repentance for example comes naturally at a true conversion, no need to look at it as a law as such, as I guess Paul agreed. But it is not me changing God's word is it, but rather you.
If you believe we are saved/justified by obeying all of Christ's literal commands, plus all of the Apostles commands, plus the moral law, can you confirm whether you yourself obey each and every literal command of Christ? Only I have never met any Christian who has done that. Thanks. Only if that is what you are saying, yet you yourself do not do what you require of others to do, you are on very dangerous ground indeed.
As for you believing what I believe is a licence to sin. As you know, in rom ch3 Paul spent ten verses repeatedly telling his readers they had righteousness apart from law(not just some law, but law full stop) He told them they were justified by faith apart from law(rom3:20-30) Paul was concerned obviously some of his readers, like you may consider such a message a licence to ignore the moral law, so he wrote in the final verse of the chapter:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obeying the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Also:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law(righteousness of observing the law) but under grace(through faith) Rom6:14
What to you is a licence to sin, to Paul was victory over sin.
See Jason, I have met many people who stress you must obey the law to be or remain saved, however, I've found those to be people who least reflect in their lives what Christ termed the higher points of the law. And of course, they could not practice what they preached.
Sorry if the reply was a bit long(I don't much care for long posts) but I didn't want you to say I ignored what you wrote. Please keep your posts much shorter, it is too time consuming to go into details of long posts
I won't ask you again about your belief that the letter that kills is the law that can be faultlessly obeyed, or your view that sin a believer hates(for no one is perfect) is just the same as choosing to live a sinfull lifestyle without conscience, for you obviously do not wish to address the points. That's OK. I'm sure you in return will not complain I ignore some of what you write
BTW
Please do not give me links to other peoples views on the Christian walk, we are simply discussing each others views, according to our understanding of scripture, thanks.
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Those post links above in post # 844 linked are all the posts and scriptures responding to your posts showing you left out context. I have responded to you as a human being. You ignored all those posts and the scriptures in them that disagreed with you and have not responded to them.
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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Again, nowhere do any of the verses you quoted say tablets of stone exclusively and nor does it say the Ten Commands, etc. The only verse that talks about tablets of stone (but it is in reference to the whole Law or of the ministration of death) is 2 Corinthians 3:7.
"7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:"
(2 Corinthians 3:7) (KJV).
"The Law of Moses brought only the promise of death, even though it was carved on stones and given in a wonderful way. Still the Law made Moses' face shine so brightly the people of Israel could not look at it, even though it was a fading glory. " (2 Corinthians 3:7) (CEV).
"The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away." (2 Corinthians 3:7) (NLT).
"Now if the dispensation of death engraved in letters on stone [the ministration of the Law], was inaugurated with such glory and splendor that the Israelites were not able to look steadily at the face of Moses because of its brilliance, [a glory] that was to fade and pass away," (2 Corinthians 3:7) (AMPC).
"Yet that old system of law that led to death began with such glory that people could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For as he gave them God’s law to obey, his face shone out with the very glory of God—though the brightness was already fading away." (2 Corinthians 3:7) (TLB).
Again, Romans 2 is talking about Paul trying to refute "Circumcision Salvationism."
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: " (Romans 2:28).
"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law:" (Romans 2:25).
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Archippus
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I'm sorry to but into your discussion with another, but only the ten commandments were engraved on stone. The law may well have come as one complete package. However, the legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed. Therefore, that only leaves the moral law, engraved on stone that was the part of the law that was the ministration of death/the letter that killed. Now concerning rom3:20, no one would need a saviour from sin concerning law they could faultlessly obey, that is a ridiculous notion, nor can you claim you cannot be justified by faultlessly obeying a set of laws(in this case the legalistic, non moral law. Therefore, rom 3:20 has at the very least to be incorporating the Ten Commandments/moral law, that is indisputable. Your claim the verse only relates to non applicable law under the old covenant that could be faultlessly obeyed does not bear credence, and in my view, does not reflect well on your theology
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Again, you are in error. See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, 1 John 3:15, and then see Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1, etc.
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Now brother Jason are you being honest here and serious?
Are you trying to say now that unless the scripture says the words, "tables of stone" or the words "the ten commandment"s then your not going to believe the scriptures in Romans 2:20-24 and Romans 3:9-20 are talking about the ten commandments even when Paul is quoting directly from the ten commandments by quoting thou shalt not commit Adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not have and idols as the context to all the world becoming guilty before God under sin and that through this law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin? (Romans 2:20-24; Romans 3:9-20). Then PAUL further clarifying the same thing in Romans 3:20, by Romans 7:7, Paul says he did not know what coveting is without the same law?
Good luck trying to tell that to God my friend come judgment day.
All you have done in this post is ignore the scriptures posted that disagree with you. You have not addressed the post or any scriptures in it that you are quoting from. You have simply chosen to ignore it and posts scriptures that are not releavent to the topic of conversation in Romans 2 and Romans 3.
All you have done is to try to make a strawman argument saying unless the words tables of stone of the ten commandments are used in the scripture they it is not talking about the ten commandments despite Paul quoting adultery, stealing not having idols and coveting which are all references to the 10 Commandments as outlined in Romans 2:20-24 and Romans 3:9-20, and confirmded in Romans 7:7..
Now you try and pull out some scriptures talking about the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS from 1 Corinthian 3 that has nothing to do with Romans 3 to try and use this to say that Romans 3:20 is not talking about the 10 Commandments? Now brother your post above only shows you are now trying to pull scriptures out of context to support your belief when you have now been caught out.
Jason I have spent a lot of my time trying to help you by adressing all you posts section by section and scripture by scripture. If you are not able to address my posts like I do with yours [section by section and scripture by scripture], I do not think there is much use in trying to continue this conversation. All your showing is that you are ignoring God's WORD and not interested in discussing the scriptures posted that disagree with you.
Maybe I will pray for you
May God help you brother Jason.
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Yes, @Jason0047 , Can the law be faultlessly obeyed...? And continually throughout ones life without ever slipping, or tripping up, falling short, or failing, or falling, ect...?
Can it be done @Jason0047...? Yes or No...?
God Bless!
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@Jason0047 , Can one be declared "innocent" by faultlessly obeying the law...? Yes or No...?
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Now brother Jason are you being honest here and serious?
Are you trying to say now that unless the scripture says the words, "tables of stone" or the words "the ten commandment"s then your not going to believe the scriptures in Romans 2:20-24 and Romans 3:9-20 are talking about the ten commandments even when Paul is quoting directly from the ten commandments by quoting thou shalt not commit Adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not have and idols as the context to all the world becoming guilty before God under sin and that through this law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin? (Romans 2:20-24; Romans 3:9-20). Then PAUL further clarifying the same thing in Romans 3:20, by Romans 7:7, Paul says he did not know what coveting is without the same law?
Good luck trying to tell that to God my friend come judgment day.
All you have done in this post is ignore the scriptures posted that disagree with you. You have not addressed the post or any scriptures in it that you are quoting from. You have simply chosen to ignore it and posts scriptures that are not releavent to the topic of conversation in Romans 2 and Romans 3.
All you have done is to try to make a strawman argument saying unless the words tables of stone of the ten commandments are used in the scripture they it is not talking about the ten commandments despite Paul quoting adultery, stealing not having idols and coveting which are all references to the 10 Commandments as outlined in Romans 2:20-24 and Romans 3:9-20, and confirmded in Romans 7:7..
Now you try and pull out some scriptures talking about the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS from 1 Corinthian 3 that has nothing to do with Romans 3 to try and use this to say that Romans 3:20 is not talking about the 10 Commandments? Now brother your post above only shows you are now trying to pull scriptures out of context to support your belief when you have now been caught out.
Jason I have spent a lot of my time trying to help you by adressing all you posts section by section and scripture by scripture. If you are not able to address my posts like I do with yours [section by section and scripture by scripture], I do not think there is much use in trying to continue this conversation. All your showing is that you are ignoring God's WORD and not interested in discussing the scriptures posted that disagree with you.
Maybe I will pray for you
May God help you brother Jason.
You have 10 commandments glasses on. Please quote me the exact verse that says Paul is talking exclusively about the 10.
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