Who really goes to Hell?

[LadyCrosstalk]

Absolutely everybody goes to hell, except any that are alive when Jesus returns. They shall be transformed in the twinkling of an eye.

The concept of hell as is commonly believed is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches that all go to hades (Greek) or Sheol (Hebrew) when they die. Good or bad, rich or poor. It is the common grave of mankind, not a place of torment. In Sheol the dead have no knowledge, no thoughts, it is likened to sleep because those in it will be woken during the resurrection. At which time it itself will be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist since death will be no more.....

No. The Hebraic concept of sheol or the Greek concept of hades was essentially the same concept--"the place of the dead". In Hebraic thought, sheol (or hades for the Hellenized Jews of Jesus' day) "the place of the dead" was divided into two parts separated by an unbridgeable gulf. One part was "paradise" (also known as the "bosom of Abraham") for the righteous dead and "the place of torment" for the unrighteous dead. One source of confusion for English-speakers is that both hades and Gehenna are rendered as "hell" in our English Bibles. I believe them to be two different locales.

This is exactly the depiction given by Jesus in Luke 16 (the tale of "the other Lazarus," who was receiving comfort in "the bosom of Abraham," and the unrighteous "Rich Man" who was in "the place of torment." The Rich Man definitely knew where he was and what was happening to him. Lazarus also knew where he was and why he was receiving his comfort. There was also a common belief among Hebrew scholars that there was a gate at the lowest level of "the place of torment" which led to the Lake of Fire.

Scripture tells us that there will be eternal conscious torment for Satan, the False Prophet and the Antichrist along with those who take the "Mark of the Beast" during the Tribulation. We don't know about ordinary unbelievers. Based on Scripture alone, it is easy to believe that there will be some finite period of punishment for unbelievers to pay for their sins (in hades) followed by annihilation in the Lake of Fire. Jesus warned us to fear God who could destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (that is the Aramaic word He used and the concept is roughly equivalent to the Lake of Fire). Eternal beings like Satan, will exist in eternal death. It is tempting to believe that Satan fools humans like the Beast/Antichrist, the False Prophet and those who take the Mark of the Beast into some ersatz "eternal life" so that he will have company in his eternal suffering and death and that he somehow arranges his permanent indwelling in them.

Satan seeks to imitate everything that the Godhead does--but Satan's deception is the cruelest part because those he deceives will realize too late, that he has dragged them into eternal suffering with himself. Apart from the Godhead, there is NO life. Only God Almighty confers eternal life--and He does so at the judgment by His Son.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

St. Paul disagrees, read Romans ch. 10, note that he says, "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" (v. 14) and let's continue, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." (v. 17).

If God doesn't use His Church through the established means He has instituted, then we preach the Gospel in vain.

-CryptoLutheran

Grace is God's response to our faith and trust in Him. There is no conflict there. Grace is always and forever an act of God alone.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Grace is God's response to our faith and trust in Him. There is no conflict there. Grace is always and forever an act of God alone.

Lots of ways I could respond, but I'll just offer this question:

Where does faith come from?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

No, baptism is an expression of faith. It is for the believer to express to God that he has put faith in what Jesus said.

Have Scripture to back that position up?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Baptism is not an act of man but an act of God. It is much more than you believe. I take it you are an evangelical. Jesus was baptized and The Father was involved as was the Holy Spirit.
Many evangelicals hold this odd belief that baptism is just an act of obedience. It is actually your begining into Christ's Church. It is your actual rebirth. I do not say you can't see heaven without baptism but I wouldn't try it.

You are forgetting that John the Baptist balked at the idea of baptizing Jesus--knowing that He had no sins to be washed away through the waters of baptism. So then, what was the purpose of Jesus' baptism? Let's dig into that a bit.

Baptism was common among Jews in Jesus' day and it followed deep repentance and a turning to God (exactly the same type of baptism which we seek). At first, John the Baptist was confused about the purpose of Jesus' baptism. He knew that Jesus was sinless so what was it for? (Jesus was not, at ANY time, spiritually dead, so how could it have been for His spiritual "rebirth"--that is your notion of baptism, remember.)

In Jesus' words, it was to "fulfill all righteousness". I believe He was calling His hearers to the idea that He was fulfilling the mitzvah (ritual bathing) required for the Israelite priests of God. They had blood for the remission of sin.

Water symbolized something else--the priestly covenant of obedience to God's word (see Hebrews 5). Jesus is our Great High Priest but He has two other roles in His ministry to mankind. At the time of His baptism into the priesthood, Jesus was already in His role of prophet (throughout the Gospels, He often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man"--a common Israelite term for a prophet). He was the King of Israel during the time that He walked the earth but, in His physical death and resurrection, He became the King of Kings--the King of all the earth. Prophet, Priest and King. Amen?

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are forgetting that John the Baptist balked at the idea of baptizing Jesus--knowing that He had no sins to be washed away through the waters of baptism. So then, what was the purpose of Jesus' baptism? Let's dig into that a bit.

Baptism was common among Jews in Jesus' day and it followed deep repentance and a turning to God (exactly the same type of baptism which we seek). At first, John the Baptist was confused about the purpose of Jesus' baptism. He knew that Jesus was sinless so what was it for? (Jesus was not, at ANY time, spiritually dead, so how could it have been for His spiritual "rebirth"--that is your notion of baptism, remember.)

In Jesus' words, it was to "fulfill all righteousness". I believe He was calling His hearers to the idea that He was fulfilling the mitzvah (ritual bathing) required for the Israelite priests of God. They had blood for the remission of sin.

Water symbolized something else--the priestly covenant of obedience to God's word (see Hebrews 5). Jesus is our Great High Priest but He has two other roles in His ministry to mankind. At the time of His baptism into the priesthood, Jesus was already in His role of prophet (throughout the Gospels, He often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man"--a common Israelite term for a prophet). He was the King of Israel during the time that He walked the earth but, in His physical death and resurrection, He became the King of Kings--the King of all the earth. Prophet, Priest and King. Amen?

That certainly speaks to why Jesus received baptism from John, it doesn't speak to Christ's admonishment that His Church baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit--i.e. the institution of Christian baptism.

Read Acts ch. 19 concerning the disciples of John, what does Paul say and do? They had received John's baptism of repentance, they had not, however, received Christian Baptism. And what is the point of Christian Baptism?

Acts of the Apostles 2:38
Romans 6:3-11
Galatians 3:27
Colossians 2:11-13
1 Peter 3:21

We can also add: John 3:5, Ephesians 5:26, and Titus 3:5

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FireDragon76]

Even though Norway has alot of people that say they don't believe in God, many are simply religiously indifferent rather than actively rejecting belief in God. Norway actually still has a substantial number of people that belong to a church. But Lutheranism isn't known for being emotional and sensationalist like religion in the US, and generally Scandinavian people are very private when it comes to things that involve strong emotions. Many Norwegians continue to have their kids baptized in the church and confirmed in the faith, and they try to live decent lives helping their neighbors.

I believe there are many people that are "anonymous Christians", and there are many Christians that are more goat than sheep and will have no share in the world to come.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Lots of ways I could respond, but I'll just offer this question:

Where does faith come from?

-CryptoLutheran

Faith comes to one who believes God. Abraham believed God and God counted it as righteousness. Faith is not an act--it is a state of being.

 

[Arthur B Via]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

This bothered me for many years until I read that God writes the name of Christ Jesus on the -hearts- of people. It's in the Book of Romans and This clearly settles the issue for this who are isolated and may never hear the name of Jesus. Please read Romans... Our God is ALWAYS a God of love and He's in complete control.... God bless you....

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

That certainly speaks to why Jesus received baptism from John, it doesn't speak to Christ's admonishment that His Church baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit--i.e. the institution of Christian baptism.

You forgot the next line: "Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you." (Matthew 28:20) Infant baptism does NOT make that child a Christian (follower of Christ). Faith in Christ and obedience to His word does.

Read Acts ch. 19 concerning the disciples of John, what does Paul say and do? They had received John's baptism of repentance, they had not, however, received Christian Baptism. And what is the point of Christian Baptism?

As I said before, it follows faith and repentance. The deep repentance that follows the beginning of faith begs God's forgiveness which He responds to with His gracious love. Baptism is the first step of obedience in the new life which has been granted by God. This really isn't as hard to understand as many would make it with their crusty old theologies.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Faith comes to one who believes God. Abraham believed God and God counted it as righteousness. Faith is not an act--it is a state of being.

Beside the fact that this answer is not an answer at all, as you've said (effectively) that faith faith comes to the one who has faith, this does not even attempt to answer my question.

I didn't ask who receives faith. I asked where does faith come from.

So, I'll ask it again: Where does faith come from?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You forgot the next line: "Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you." (Matthew 28:20)

I didn't forget it, I just didn't include the entire quote. The entire quote from the Lord is as follows:

"Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to keep all which I have told you."

So Christ's command to His Church is to make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them what the Lord has said.

Infant baptism does NOT make that child a Christian (follower of Christ). Faith in Christ and obedience to His word does.

Of course Baptism makes a child a Christian, because Baptism makes us Christians. And since faith is God's gift to us (Ephesians 2:8, Romans 10:17), it is our birth from God, who gives us faith, that makes us Christians, and it is only with faith that we can walk in obedience to God.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

And, yes, I did just give spoilers to the question I've asked you in two previous posts.

As I said before, it follows faith and repentance. The deep repentance that follows the beginning of faith begs God's forgiveness which He responds to with His gracious love.

So it is up to us to perform the right things in order to win God's forgiveness and gracious love?

Baptism is the first step of obedience in the new life which has been granted by God.

Do you happen to have any Scripture to support that position?

This really isn't as hard to understand as many would make it with their crusty old theologies.

Oh, I understand your position, I just disagree with it entirely.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[eleos1954]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

"... people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. "

You are correct and the Bible does not teach eternal torment ... although some religious groups do teach this.

"I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.
"
No "tricks". It is about sincere repentance ... and only the Lord knows about the sincerity of it.

All know whether exposed to "preaching" or not.

Romans 2:14-16

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

[eleos1954]

There's this idea that boggles my mind for quite a while and I'd like to hear your opinions about it:

First off, imagine the situation of a person A: You're born in some poor, remote part of India. You're raised fully in hinduist faith. Your all life you basically know nothing but the hindu gods, which you also worship. One day there's this white guy who comes around and starts preaching something about one God, which is actually a three at once or something, but you don't really understand him, it doesn't really catch you by the heart or anything. Few days later he wanders off. After some years, you get ill and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

Now, alternatively, person B: You're born to atheistic family in a very atheistic western country, let's say Norway. You're raised in a profoundly atheistic way, involving absolutely zero room for spirituality. When you grow in age, you maybe encounter some people who practice the religion, but you're lead to believe they're some kind of lunatics and to stay away from them. Maybe someone from your work tries to talk you into the Christianity, but you're provided with scientific evidence for any question you may have about the world, and since your parents didn't put a seed of the spirituality in you as you were growing up, you never get to question it. You grow old and you die.

Now: you stand before the judgement of God. You heard the word of God but you didn't accept it. Are you going to Hell?

I've been Christian my whole life and I've spent plenty of time reading Bible. Personally, the idea of either of these people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.

What do you guys think?

"... people going to some kind of 'eternal torment' goes completely against the idea of the righteous and merciful God that Bible preaches. "

You are correct and the Bible does not teach eternal torment ... although some religious groups do teach this.

"I understand that there's no verse, no simple line to prove this, but both logically and spiritually I wholeheartedly believe in some kind of 'backdoor trick' (as atheists opposing this idea would've called it) of a last-second of your life revelation of Jesus who you get to freely accept and go to Heaven, regardless of where or how you lived.
"
No "tricks". It is about sincere repentance ... and only the Lord knows about the sincerity of it.

All know whether exposed to "preaching" or not.

Romans 2:14-16

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

You are forgetting that John the Baptist balked at the idea of baptizing Jesus--knowing that He had no sins to be washed away through the waters of baptism. So then, what was the purpose of Jesus' baptism? Let's dig into that a bit.

Baptism was common among Jews in Jesus' day and it followed deep repentance and a turning to God (exactly the same type of baptism which we seek). At first, John the Baptist was confused about the purpose of Jesus' baptism. He knew that Jesus was sinless so what was it for? (Jesus was not, at ANY time, spiritually dead, so how could it have been for His spiritual "rebirth"--that is your notion of baptism, remember.)

In Jesus' words, it was to "fulfill all righteousness". I believe He was calling His hearers to the idea that He was fulfilling the mitzvah (ritual bathing) required for the Israelite priests of God. They had blood for the remission of sin.

Water symbolized something else--the priestly covenant of obedience to God's word (see Hebrews 5). Jesus is our Great High Priest but He has two other roles in His ministry to mankind. At the time of His baptism into the priesthood, Jesus was already in His role of prophet (throughout the Gospels, He often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man"--a common Israelite term for a prophet). He was the King of Israel during the time that He walked the earth but, in His physical death and resurrection, He became the King of Kings--the King of all the earth. Prophet, Priest and King. Amen?

Confirming that as Jesus waited until he was 33 years of age, the age when the Jews believed a person was able to become a priest...

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Browser double posting today.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Grrrr

 

[Justatruthseeker]

As for your all asking for scriptural proof baptism is the first step in showing obedience, what did Jesus say.....

John 14:15

 

[Justatruthseeker]

As for your all asking for scriptural proof baptism is the first step in showing obedience, what did Jesus say.....

John 14:15

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I'm just curious do you/does your church not believe in baptizing those who are mentally handicapped as well?

Does your church believe in baptizing unbelievers?

How do you know if they are believers or not?

The Bible clearly states that it is a willing choice and even those that never hear the Word, but do the Word, are a law unto themselves.

How do those never having heard of Christ get saved? Contemplate.....

 

[ttcmacro]

Does your church believe in baptizing unbelievers?

How do you know if they are believers or not?

The Bible clearly states that it is a willing choice and even those that never hear the Word, but do the Word, are a law unto themselves.

How do those never having heard of Christ get saved? Contemplate.....

Orthodox baptize babies, so in one sense they are not believers yet. We believe we are bound by the sacraments (Christ says to be baptize so we do it) and that it does dispense grace. That does not mean from our perspective that those who are not baptized and/or never heard of Christ are damned. Christ states that there will be some surprises on judgement day, when the sheep and goats are seperated, and we are judged according how we have treated the least among us.

 

[ttcmacro]

Does your church believe in baptizing unbelievers?

How do you know if they are believers or not?

The Bible clearly states that it is a willing choice and even those that never hear the Word, but do the Word, are a law unto themselves.

How do those never having heard of Christ get saved? Contemplate.....

Orthodox baptize babies, so in one sense they are not believers yet. We believe we are bound by the sacraments (Christ says to be baptize so we do it) and that it does dispense grace. That does not mean from our perspective that those who are not baptized and/or never heard of Christ are damned. Christ states that there will be some surprises on judgement day, when the sheep and goats are seperated, and we are judged according how we have treated the least among us.