70th Week - It Is Still Pending

jgr

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You need it to mean that, and not that it really means that. There is no reason for Daniel 9:27 to be involving time outside of the 70th week. The context for that verse is the 70th week, all of it. And if you at least admitted that, you would then understand why some of us conclude there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks. But the gap is not in the middle of the 70th week though. It's between the 69th and 70th week.

There is every reason, and in fact compelling necessity, for the events of 70 AD to be referenced in conjunction with those of the 70th week, because the two are inextricably associated. The 70th week saw Christ's establishment of His New Will and Testament, and its confirmation in His death at Calvary (Daniel 9:27, Matthew 26:28). This necessitated the events of 70 AD -- the death and destruction of all that was associated with the old will and testament -- because two wills and testaments cannot be in concurrent existence. The death of Christ, the Divine Testator, established the New and better Will and Testament, replacing the old with the New. (Hebrews 9:15-17; 8:6; 10:9).

The interval of a generation between the end of the 70th week, and 70 AD, represented the final opportunity which God in His mercy granted His unbelieving people to turn to Him. Lamentably, few did.

The 70th week, and 70 AD, are inseparably related. That relationship represents another incontrovertible reason why the 70th week cannot be disembodied, and why there is thus no gap within the 70 weeks.
 
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Davy

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Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The prince to come in verse 26 is the same person who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Whoever one takes this prince to be meaning, this same person has to be meant in verse 27 also. Let's see if Titus might fit both verses.

and the people of Titus that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And Titus shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week Titus shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations Titus shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Does Titus fit both verses? I would say no. This part right off the bat debunks it's meaning Titus---And Titus shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. It doesn't fit.
...

You are forgetting about the idea of TYPES which God uses in His Word.

For example, in Revelation 14 & 18 at the destruction of the Babylon harlot city, it is said, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen." That was first said word for word in Isaiah 21 about the fall of the historical Babylon. Why would our Lord Jesus use that again in Revelation? and it's obviously used as a TYPE for the old city of Babylon, but applied to a different time and different place.

Likewise with the prince that would come to destroy the city and sanctuary. It was historically the Roman general Titus and his army. But for the time after Titus it is about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.

Titus (one of "many antichrists") - "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;"

The Antichrist they heard shall come; at the end - "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." 27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...".


I believe you also are confused about Daniel 11. It is about the final Antichrist at the very end of this world. Antiochus IV served as the blueprint, and the fact that Antiochus did not completely fulfill that, but almost did, is another example of God using types in His Word. The transgression of desolation of Dan.8 is the same event as the placing of the abomination in the sanctuary of Dan.11. Both are about the ending of the daily sacrifices and desolating the sanctuary.
 
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Davy

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There is no terminology, e.g. abomination of desolation, in common between 2 Thess. 2 and Matthew 24. The two passages are unrelated.

Well yes, the 2 Thess.2 false one is directly related, as I showed from Scripture.

The one doing the great signs and wonders to deceive is the same false one to come that Jesus warned of in Matt.24 and in Rev.13. Only some false doctrine of men you're holding to instead would block your mind from realizing this connection.
 
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Davy

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The people of the prince included both Titus and his army. Both were agents of Messiah the prince.

Messiah is both Savior and Judge.

And God in Isaiah 10 called "the Assyrian" the rod of His anger too, but that didn't mean God is who did what the Assyrian did to God's people. Likewise in Joel 2:25, God calls the locust army He sends upon His people, "My great army", but that doesn't mean God was the locusts doing the attacking upon His people.

So regardless that our Lord Jesus had already pronounced sentence upon Jerusalem and the rebellious Jews at His 1st coming, it doesn't mean He was the one who destroyed the city and sanctuary, for Titus is who did it, and you cannot omit Titus and his army from the act.
 
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Dave L

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I'm not saying he is unknown among everyone. But he is unknown to me, until now anyway. The only book I read is the Bible. That's the only book I can trust to have provided the truth, and nothing but the truth, from the first verse until the last verse. All of these other books are just opinions. Some opinions may be the truth, some might not be. But as to the Bible, meaning the translations that weren't altered to fit one's agenda, such as the JWS did via their translations, are not opinions which may or may not be true, but are facts which are indeed true. Of course though, one has to interpret things correctly first, in order to understand the facts as truth. But even if one sometimes fails to do that, the Bible still contains nothing but facts, from the first verse to the last verse, that are 100% true.
The problem is, the gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week is not found in the bible. And to place it there, denies that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week, being crucified in the middle of it as foretold.

If you can place a gap there, you can make scripture say whatever you want it to say.
 
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Davy

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When you think about it though, 29 AD couldn't have been the time of His death. What I liked about your post though, was the last sentence.

20th year of Asteiages (Artaxerxes, which is a title like Pharaoh or Czar). Issued the command to restore and build Jerusalem to Nehemiah in the 20th year of his reign (Nehemiah 2).
 
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Davy

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From Wikipedia:

"Scholars have provided estimates for the year of crucifixion in the range 30–33 AD, with Rainer Riesner stating that "the fourteenth of Nisan (7 April) of the year A.D. 30 is, apparently in the opinion of the majority of contemporary scholars as well, far and away the most likely date of the crucifixion of Jesus."

AD 30 is in the 70th week.

I don't see 30 A.D. being of the 70th week any more than 29 A.D. would be. Regardless of whether you want to say Jesus was crucified in the year 30, 31, 32, or 33 A.D., the ending of the 69th week with the cross would still be the same end of the 69th week per the prophecy.
 
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Davy

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I grasp your reasoning here. But I'm uncertain that this same reasoning might fit Daniel 9:26b. So maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, and it's that I'm not entirely certain either way. Currently I favor more the latter than the former, yet I don't entirely discount the former.

IMO, Daniel 9:26b is meaning during the 70th week. But for some reason folks don't want to at least acknowledge that possibility. The same way Daniel 9:26a involves the first 69 weeks, Daniel 9:26b involves the remaining week, the 70th week. IOW Daniel 9:26a is being expanded on per verse 25, and Daniel 9:26b is being expanded on per verse 27.

It's simple for me to reject any idea that it's about Jesus with the destroying of the city and sanctuary and thereafter, because Jesus did not come riding upon a horse commanding the Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem, Titus did. And Jesus made no 7 year covenant and then broke it in the middle of the 7 years, nor did Jesus setup an idol abomination in the sanctuary making it desolate, which is... what the Daniel 11 Scripture regarding the "vile person" is about.

It's really simple for me, that ain't our Lord Jesus Christ. I actually cannot understand how someone who claimed to believe on Jesus Christ as The Savior could assign Him doing those things. It's very close to blaspheme in my opinion.
 
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Davy

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I agree that is what Daniel 9:26 (b) is about

I agree that historically, the roman armies destroyed Jerusalem (the city) and the sanctuary (the temple) in 70 ad. Notice the Greek septuagint states "he" shall destroy the city and sanctuary WITH "the prince"

Daniel 9:26 (b) Greek Septuagint and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary WITH the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations.

Daniel 9:26 (b) KJV and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

In the parable of the wedding feast, we see the king destroying Jerusalem WITH an army
Matthew 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

In the parable of the wicked tenants it is the Lord who comes to destroy Jerusalem
Matthew 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men,

Thus it is ultimately the King (God) who destroys Jerusalem in 70 ad.



Doesn't change the historical fact that the Roman general Titus and his army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D., thus fulfilling the Dan.9:26 prophecy of the prince to come that shall destroy the city and sanctuary.

Never suggested it was Nebuchadezzar. Chronologically that would make no sense. So I'm not sure where you are getting that from........

You asked this:

"Where does the prophecy specifically mention it being rebuilt a 2nd time after it's prophecied destruction in 70 ad?"


That's like asking me where is the Daniel 9:25 command to restore and build issued again. Well, there is no such repeat in the Book of Daniel. But do you really need it?...

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
KJV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV


Self explanatory really.
 
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Davy

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457 BC, the seventh year of Emperor Artaxerxes when he issued his decree, as Daniel said would happen.

"in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king ... on the first day of the first month Ezra began to go up from Babylonia ... This is a copy of the letter that King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, a man learned in matters of the commandments of the Lord and his statutes for Israel: “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven. Peace. And now I make a decree that ...."
(Ezra 7:7,13)

Some say that his 7th year was 458 BC but 457 BC is the more accurate date.

Those often forget Nehemiah 2, which was the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign - 454 B.C.
 
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Davy

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As much as I am sure about there being a physical temple that is desecrated, (Ezekiel's Temple), the spiritual temple of the Christian body will be desecrated also - which is what the 'pharmakia' of Revelation 18:23 (drugs for sorcery) pertains to. (In which people are unknowingly dosed with hallucinogens, and they mistakenly think that they are possessed by demons/ alien parasites / mind controlling worms, bugs. Presumably, the Pope will pretend to exorcise the world of these manufactured illusions.)

I know some struggle with symbols and allegories in God's Word. I think we all have that struggle at times.

The Daniel 11 prophecy about the "vile person" is what the Daniel 9:27 "one week" is about. The "league" the "vile person" makes is the covenant of 7 years of Dan.9:27.

It's the "vile person" who causes the sacrifices to stop, and has the abomination placed in the sanctuary, causing it to be desolated. Antiochus IV served as a blueprint pattern for it, but Jesus pointed to it happening in the future while Antiochus had long been dead.

So I don't think it takes much common sense to understand the prophecy is about our future still, because not since 170 B.C. when Antiochus IV did that has there ever been one to do that in Jerusalem again. There hasn't even been a standing Jewish temple since 70 A.D. to make it possible for that to happen yet. The Romans in 70 A.D. certainly did not fulfill it, because the temple burned before they could get control of it.

And really, I think that's what it comes down to with some folks who don't think it's meant for the very end of this world, simply because they don't yet see a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem today. But for others who deny, I think they definitely are on a political agenda that God is allowing so as many as will, will be deceived when the Antichrist shows up to build it.
 
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BABerean2

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It's the "vile person" who causes the sacrifices to stop, and has the abomination placed in the sanctuary, causing it to be desolated. Antiochus IV served as a blueprint pattern for it, but Jesus pointed to it happening in the future while Antiochus had long been dead.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.



The Jews of Jesus day understood well his reference to the abomination of desolation in Matthew's Gospel, because they celebrated Hanukkah every year (John 10:22).

Modern Christians could understand the verse if they would accept the parallel account in Luke's Gospel, instead of ignoring it, or explaining it away to make their man-made doctrines work.


......................................................................

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 
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claninja

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Doesn't change the historical fact that the Roman general Titus and his army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D., thus fulfilling the Dan.9:26 prophecy of the prince to come that shall destroy the city and sanctuary.

I doesn't change what fact? I agreed with you that Daniel 9:26 (b) is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

You asked this:
That's like asking me where is the Daniel 9:25 command to restore and build issued again. Well, there is no such repeat in the Book of Daniel. But do you really need it?...

Correct, I did ask this: "Where does the prophecy specifically mention it being rebuilt a 2nd time after it's prophecied destruction in 70 ad?"

Jerusalem and the temple were sieged and destroyed once by Babylon.
In Daniel 9:25, the angel gives details about Jerusalem being rebuilt after its destruction by Babylon, which would take 7"sevens" or around 49 years

Jerusalem and temple were sieged and destroyed a 2nd time by Rome (Daniel 9:26b)
If Daniel 9:27 is about another temple that is built after its destruction by Rome, where does the angel give the details about the temple and Jerusalem being rebuilt a 2nd time?

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

This is clearly about Antiochus. When Antiochus went to invade Eygpt (the south), Rome opposed him, so he and his armies left. Many Jews had thought Antiochus had died in the Battle of Egypt, so some began to worship according to Law. When Antiochus returned to Judea and saw them worshiping again according to the Law, he was furious, and that's when he desecrated the temple.
Daniel 11:29-30 At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

This coincides with Daniel 8

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
KJV

There are 2 other places, where an abomination of desolation is mentioned that is not in reference to Antiochus:

Daniel 9:27 (Septuagint) and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up

These are most likely what Christ was referencing.
 
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claninja

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Easy. Go back and read my posts about the 3 time periods given in Dan.9:25-27.
You mentioned your opinion, but no actual scriptural proof to show that Jesus was cut off at the end (within) of the 69 weeks.
The Three Periods In Daniel's 70 Weeks:
1. 7 weeks (49 years) = command to restore the city (and temple) - 454 B.C., to completion - 404 B.C.

2. 62 weeks (434 years) - from the end of the dedication to the end of 62 weeks, Jesus would be 'cut off' (crucified). The MATH - 49 years + 434 years = 483 years from 454 B.C. = 29 A.D., the date of the cross. The 62nd week ended on 29 A.D.

3. "one week" (7 years) = the final week of the 70. The events of the "vile person" of Daniel 11 who comes to power using flatteries and takes the kingdom and makes a "league" that restores old covenant worship in Jerusalem with the daily sacrifices, and then ends that and instead sets up an abomination idol in the sanctuary, making it spiritually desolate.

You seem to be ignoring the Hebrew word for AFTER to make your theory work.
Daniel 9:26 AFTER the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing

Or you seem to be changing the definition of AFTER to make your theory work

1. adverb
a. of place, behind, twice Genesis 22:13 (many MSS. ⅏ ᵐ5 ᵑ6 Ol Ew read אֶחָד see Di) Psalm 68:26.
b. of time, afterwards Genesis 10:18; Genesis 18:5; Genesis 24:55; Genesis 30:21; Judges 19:5 +; וְאַחַר in laws of P, as Leviticus 14:8,19; Leviticus 15:28; Leviticus 22:7; Numbers 5:26 and elsewhere
 
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Davy

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You mentioned your opinion, but no actual scriptural proof to show that Jesus was cut off at the end (within) of the 69 weeks.


You seem to be ignoring the Hebrew word for AFTER to make your theory work.
Daniel 9:26 AFTER the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing

Or you seem to be changing the definition of AFTER to make your theory work

1. adverb
a. of place, behind, twice Genesis 22:13 (many MSS. ⅏ ᵐ5 ᵑ6 Ol Ew read אֶחָד see Di) Psalm 68:26.
b. of time, afterwards Genesis 10:18; Genesis 18:5; Genesis 24:55; Genesis 30:21; Judges 19:5 +; וְאַחַר in laws of P, as Leviticus 14:8,19; Leviticus 15:28; Leviticus 22:7; Numbers 5:26 and elsewhere

The Daniel 9 prophecy established the FACT of WHEN Messiah would appear.

Dan 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

KJV

1st Period - "seven weeks" (49 years) - from the command to restore and build Jerusalem. The command given Nehemiah in the 20th year of Artaxerxes (Neh.2; 454 B.C.).

2nd Period - "threescore and two weeks" (434 years) - unto the Messiah the Prince.

And you're telling me you can't figure out the rest for yourself?
 
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Davy

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445 BC or 444 BC was Artaxerxes 20th year. Google his reign Davy.

I'm using Bullinger's chronology.

It's from bishop Ussher (17th century) chronology. Ussher has beginning of Artaxeres reign at A.M. 3531, which corresponds to 474 B.C. in his Collatio Annorum. Bishop Lloyd added Ussher's chronology to the 1701 A.V. edition, but in Neh.2 Lloyd added his own date of "445 B.C." This note from Bullinger's Appendix 91 in The Companion Bible.

Ezra 6:15
15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
KJV
 
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DavidPT

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445 BC or 444 BC was Artaxerxes 20th year. Google his reign Davy.


I realize you weren't addressing me in that post, yet I did just that, Googled it. Apparently there are differences of opinions regarding this. Such as the following link.

http://www.truthforthelastdays.com/secondcoming/secondcoming13.html

If you have some concluding Artaxerxes reign initially began in 464 BC, and some concluding 474 BC instead, why is it that only the former conclusion can be the correct one?
 
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