70th Week - It Is Still Pending

[jgr]

Maybe Davy used the wrong year as a starting point, and that if he adjusted that by a year, what then? Wouldn't that make his proposal fit the end of the 69th week if 30 AD, according to Scholars, can fit the time of Jesus' crucifixion?

Only Davy can answer that.

 

[DavidPT]

This is from Clarence Larkin (Gap Heavyweight) on how it all adds up.

“While there was no break between the “Seven Weeks” and the “Threescore and Two Weeks,” there is a break between the “Sixty ninth” and “Seventieth Week,” in which several things were to happen.First we read that “Messiah Was to Be Cut Off, But Not for Himself.” This refers to Christ’s rejection and crucifixion. He died for others. Then we read that the people of the “Prince That Shall Come” shall destroy the City and the Sanctuary. Note that it does not say that the “Prince” will destroy the City and Sanctuary, but the People of the Prince. The people who destroyed the City of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70 were the Romans, therefore the “Prince (Antichrist) must be a Roman Citizen.This does not mean that he cannot be a Syrian Jew, for Syria will then be a part of the revived Roman Empire, and Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen as well as a Jew. We are then told that the desolation of the land of Palestine shall continue until the “End of the War” (probably Armageddon). As this “desolation” still continues we see that the “GAP” between the “Sixty ninth” and “Seventieth Week” takes in the whole of this PRESENT DISPENSATION.” Dispensational Truth, p. 71 Clarence Larkin.

Can't say I have ever heard of him. This shows how much I rarely rely on outside sources, such as this person, to help me form my theology.

 

[DavidPT]

Only Davy can answer that.

But I'm meaning mathematically though, in general. Wouldn't his proposal work if he adjusted the starting year by one year? If Scholars can have estimates of the time of the crucifixion, where they have 3 years to decide from, why can't the same be true about the starting of the 70 weeks?

 

[Dave L]

Can't say I have ever heard of him. This shows how much I rarely rely on outside sources, such as this person, to help me form my theology.

"The book Dispensational Truth: God’s Plan and Purpose for the Ages (1918), containing over 115 charts and other illustrations, is considered a classic and continues to be reprinted today. Larkin wrote a number of other books including commentaries on Daniel and Revelation, which also contain intricate charts and drawings."

"During the last few years of Larkin’s life, his works became so popular that he left the pastorate to devote all his time to writing."

Who was Clarence Larkin?

 

[BABerean2]

Pastor John Otis refers to Larkin in the following teaching.


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can't say I have ever heard of him. This shows how much I rarely rely on outside sources, such as this person, to help me form my theology.

Aw come on now. Are you saying you have never relied on outside resources to help interpret the bible?
Wonder if Philip also read Revelation.......

Acts 8:
30 And Philip having run up, heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you then understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How indeed could I be able, unless someone will guide me?” And he invited Philip, having come up, to sit with him.
32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading was this:
“He was led as a sheep to slaughter<4967>,
and as a lamb<286> before the one shearing him is silent,
so He does not open His mouth.

Why is greek #721 used instead of #286 in Revelation?

Rev 5:12
saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb<721> who was slain/slaughtered<4969> To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

 

[Christian Gedge]

Then let's see you fit the following into your proposed position-----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

That too has to occur during the 70th week. Let's see you do that without inserting any gaps into it ..... The entirety of this verse involves the 70th week. Nothing in this verse is fulfilled outside of the 70th week.

Some of Daniels prophecy goes beyond the 70th week and describes the aftermath. So, the destruction of the temple is outside of the actual weeks; there is no gap.

Are you aware that the 'overspreading abomination' was the offering of animal blood in defiance of Jesus proclamation, "It is finished!" Messiah's atonement was fulfilled in the midst of the week as the prophet said, but the abominations dragged on (overspread) for 40 years until the consummation. (destruction the temple)

 

[DavidPT]

"The book Dispensational Truth: God’s Plan and Purpose for the Ages (1918), containing over 115 charts and other illustrations, is considered a classic and continues to be reprinted today. Larkin wrote a number of other books including commentaries on Daniel and Revelation, which also contain intricate charts and drawings."

"During the last few years of Larkin’s life, his works became so popular that he left the pastorate to devote all his time to writing."

Who was Clarence Larkin?

I'm not saying he is unknown among everyone. But he is unknown to me, until now anyway. The only book I read is the Bible. That's the only book I can trust to have provided the truth, and nothing but the truth, from the first verse until the last verse. All of these other books are just opinions. Some opinions may be the truth, some might not be. But as to the Bible, meaning the translations that weren't altered to fit one's agenda, such as the JWS did via their translations, are not opinions which may or may not be true, but are facts which are indeed true. Of course though, one has to interpret things correctly first, in order to understand the facts as truth. But even if one sometimes fails to do that, the Bible still contains nothing but facts, from the first verse to the last verse, that are 100% true.

 

[DavidPT]

Some of Daniels prophecy goes beyond the 70th week and describes the aftermath. So, the destruction of the temple is outside of the actual weeks; there is no gap.

Are you aware that the 'overspreading abomination' was the offering of animal blood in defiance of Jesus proclamation, "It is finished!" Messiah's atonement was fulfilled in the midst of the week as the prophet said, but the abominations dragged on (overspread) for 40 years until the consummation. (destruction the temple)

You need it to mean that, and not that it really means that. There is no reason for Daniel 9:27 to be involving time outside of the 70th week. The context for that verse is the 70th week, all of it. And if you at least admitted that, you would then understand why some of us conclude there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks. But the gap is not in the middle of the 70th week though. It's between the 69th and 70th week.

 

[Christian Gedge]

From Wikipedia:

"Scholars have provided estimates for the year of crucifixion in the range 30–33 AD, with Rainer Riesner stating that "the fourteenth of Nisan (7 April) of the year A.D. 30 is, apparently in the opinion of the majority of contemporary scholars as well, far and away the most likely date of the crucifixion of Jesus."

AD 30 is in the 70th week.

Passover always comes on full moon, and lunar information can be traced very accurately. The Wikipedia article is correct. There are only 2 crucifixion dates that satisfy the astronomical criteria, and they are 7th April AD30, or 3rd April AD33.

I have an article on why I agree with 7th April AD30.
Chronology of the Cross

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Passover always comes on full moon, and lunar information can be traced very accurately. The Wikipedia article is correct. There are only 2 crucifixion dates that satisfy the astronomical criteria, and they are 7th April AD30, or 3rd April AD33.

I have an article on why I agree with 7th April AD30.
Chronology of the Cross

How long did the feast of the Passover last?
Josephus says Titus encompassed Jerusalem on the feast of the Passover, not the day of the Passover correct?
Thks for any info on that......

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.
Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

Revelation 9:5
5 And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months
And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion, whenever it should be striking a man;

Matthew 24:22
And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved;
but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened

 

[DavidPT]

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.
Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

Revelation 9:5
5 And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months
And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion, whenever it should be striking a man;

Matthew 24:22
And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved;
but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened

Let's be real about things at least. Regardless that both events involve 5 months, there is nothing even remotely similar about these events, other than they both involve 5 months.


Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

This leads to the 5 months of tormenting in question. Was the BP involved in the events of 70 AD? Does verse 3 sound like that might be meaning the Romans or anything involving the Romans? Verse 5, the very next verse, can't be fulfilled unless verse 1-4 are fulfilled first.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Let's be real about things at least. Regardless that both events involve 5 months, there is nothing even remotely similar about these events, other than they both involve 5 months.

This leads to the 5 months of tormenting in question. Was the BP involved in the events of 70 AD? Does verse 3 sound like that might be meaning the Romans or anything involving the Romans? Verse 5, the very next verse, can't be fulfilled unless verse 1-4 are fulfilled first.

What about the Roman denarius in Revelation 6?

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her, 42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

 

[Christian Gedge]

How long did the feast of the Passover last?

They prepared the paschal lamb late on the 14th Abib (renamed Nisan) and they ate it early (evening) of the 15th. The total festival lasted 7 days. (15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st)

 

[claninja]

The Dan.9:26 verse about the one who would destroy the city and sanctuary (2nd temple)

I agree that is what Daniel 9:26 (b) is about

was about Titus and the Roman army in 70 A.D.

I agree that historically, the roman armies destroyed Jerusalem (the city) and the sanctuary (the temple) in 70 ad. Notice the Greek septuagint states "he" shall destroy the city and sanctuary WITH "the prince"

Daniel 9:26 (b) Greek Septuagint and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary WITH the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations.

Daniel 9:26 (b) KJV and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

In the parable of the wedding feast, we see the king destroying Jerusalem WITH an army
Matthew 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

In the parable of the wicked tenants it is the Lord who comes to destroy Jerusalem
Matthew 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men,

Thus it is ultimately the King (God) who destroys Jerusalem in 70 ad.

It wasn't about Nebuchadnezzar, which is what you're suggesting.

Never suggested it was Nebuchadezzar. Chronologically that would make no sense. So I'm not sure where you are getting that from........

No, the prophecy reveals Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week, not the 70th. There is no way to move Christ's crucifixion into the 70th week.

So if someone asked you what number comes after 69, you would say 69?

As an adverb, the only time the hebrew for "after" means hind is with regards to place/location as in "behind", never does "after" mean hind or end with regards to time. It always means "after" or "following" with regards to time.

1. adverb a. of place, behind, twice Genesis 22:13 (many MSS. ⅏ᵐ5 ᵑ6 Ol Ew read אֶחָד see Di) Psalm 68:26.

b. of time, afterwards Genesis 10:18; Genesis 18:5; Genesis 24:55; Genesis 30:21; Judges 19:5 +; וְאַחַר in laws of P, as Leviticus 14:8,19; Leviticus 15:28; Leviticus 22:7; Numbers 5:26 and elsewhere

Let's look at some examples of the same hebrew word being used:

Were the men to pass on while they refreshed themselves, or after they finished refreshing themselves?
Genesis 18:5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and AFTER that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.”

Did Leah have Dinah while she had Zebulun? or Did Leah have Dinah sometime after Zebulun
Genesis 30:20 So she called his name Zebulun.i AFTERWARD she bore a daughter and called her name Dinah.

In order for one to interpret Jesus being cut off at the end of the 69 weeks, one must inappropriately change the meaning of the word "after"

1. 7 weeks (49 years) = command to restore the city (and temple) -

I agree

2. 62 weeks (434 years) - from the end of the dedication to the end of 62 weeks, Jesus would be 'cut off' (crucified).

Please provide the scripture that states Jesus is cut off at the end of the 62+7.

In all versions I have read, it says the Messiah is cut off AFTER 7+62.

 

[claninja]

2nd Period - 62 sevens (or 62 weeks) = 434 years. From the dedication to the time of Jesus being 'cut off' at the cross. From 404 B.C. to 29 A.D.* = 62 weeks, or 434 years. From the command to restore to Jesus being cut off was 483 years (or 69 weeks).

Please provide scripture that states the Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69 weeks.

In the mean time, I'll leave you with what scripture states:

Scripture only states it will by 7+62 weeks unto the Messiah.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

Then scripture states AFTER the 62+7 weeks, the messiah is cut off
Daniel 9:26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

 

[jgr]

Passover always comes on full moon, and lunar information can be traced very accurately. The Wikipedia article is correct. There are only 2 crucifixion dates that satisfy the astronomical criteria, and they are 7th April AD30, or 3rd April AD33.

I have an article on why I agree with 7th April AD30.
Chronology of the Cross

What do your calculations identify as the starting BC year of the 70 weeks?

 

[Christian Gedge]

457 BC, the seventh year of Emperor Artaxerxes when he issued his decree, as Daniel said would happen.

"in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king ... on the first day of the first month Ezra began to go up from Babylonia ... This is a copy of the letter that King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, a man learned in matters of the commandments of the Lord and his statutes for Israel: “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven. Peace. And now I make a decree that ...."
(Ezra 7:7,13)​

Some say that his 7th year was 458 BC but 457 BC is the more accurate date.

 

[jgr]

457 BC, the seventh year of Emperor Artaxerxes when he issued his decree, as Daniel said would happen.

"in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king ... on the first day of the first month Ezra began to go up from Babylonia ... This is a copy of the letter that King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, a man learned in matters of the commandments of the Lord and his statutes for Israel: “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven. Peace. And now I make a decree that ...."
(Ezra 7:7,13)​

Some say that his 7th year was 458 BC but 457 BC is the more accurate date.

457 BC makes for perfect harmony and consistency. Thanks, brother.

 

[jgr]

457 BC, the seventh year of Emperor Artaxerxes when he issued his decree, as Daniel said would happen.

"in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king ... on the first day of the first month Ezra began to go up from Babylonia ... This is a copy of the letter that King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, a man learned in matters of the commandments of the Lord and his statutes for Israel: “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven. Peace. And now I make a decree that ...."
(Ezra 7:7,13)​

Some say that his 7th year was 458 BC but 457 BC is the more accurate date.

I've just ordered "The Atonement Clock".