70th Week - It Is Still Pending

[jgr]

I agree to a degree, as your examples showed. But in two verses next to each other though, they would capitalize prince in one of them, but not in the very next one, assuming they took that prince to be meaning this same prince as well?

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


They capitalized prince in this verse as well, apparently indicating they took this prince to be meaning Jesus, the same way they did in Daniel 9:25. If they thought the prince in verse 26 of Daniel 9 is this same prince, Jesus in this case, they would have at least bothered to capitalize it in verse 26 since they bothered to do that in verse 25.

The YLT, which is the version most acclaimed for literal accuracy, would take precedence over the KJV.

 

[DavidPT]

The YLT, which is the version most acclaimed for literal accuracy, would take precedence over the KJV.

My point is that translators of the KJV, centuries ago apparently saw two princes between verse 25 and 26 in Daniel 9. This isn't just a modern day idea then. This doesn't prove two different princes then. It proves this is not a modern day idea that just popped up in the last century or two. That can be said of a position such as Pretrib though, that it's a modern day idea that only popped up in the last century or two. The same can't be said about the prince in verse 25 and 26, because there are some, who centuries ago, took these to be meaning different princes, apparently. And IMO, the KJV for one proves it.

 

[parousia70]

So ultimately, it's still God who destroys the city and the sanctuary:
Matthew 21:40-41
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

This passage is quite frankly one of the main nails in the coffin of futurism, as most futurists agree this passage has already been fulfilled... how they can ignore, or worse yet see but refuse to accept, the mechanism if its fulfilment (The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard, Jesus) is quite baffling.

 

[jgr]

My point is that translators of the KJV, centuries ago apparently saw two princes between verse 25 and 26 in Daniel 9. This isn't just a modern day idea then. This doesn't prove two different princes then. It proves this is not a modern day idea that just popped up in the last century or two. That can be said of a position such as Pretrib though, that it's a modern day idea that only popped up in the last century or two. The same can't be said about the prince in verse 25 and 26, because there are some, who centuries ago, took these to be meaning different princes, apparently. And IMO, the KJV for one proves it.

Here are Daniel 9:25-26 in the original KJV 1611 version:


25Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.

26And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.


Note the capitalization of "Prince" in both verses.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Where does Scripture say a gap DOESN'T exist between the 69th and 70th week?

In Leviticus 25:1-7. Daniels 'weeks' were part of the Hebrew calendar (a calendar based on 'sevens') and, as we all know, calendars do not have gaps.

 

[keras]

In Leviticus 25:1-7. Daniels 'weeks' were part of the Hebrew calendar (a calendar based on 'sevens') and, as we all know, calendars do not have gaps.

But Bible prophecy does.
When Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2a, as per Luke 4:18-19, He closed the scroll then, stopping before: and a Day of the vengeance of our God....
This terrible Day, prophesied in over 100 graphically described scriptures, still awaits fulfilment. The gap has ben nearly 2000 years, just as Jesus said there would be from when He commenced His work until He attains His reward. Luke 13:32 Also in Hosea 6:2

 

[Christian Gedge]

But Bible prophecy does. (have gaps)
When Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2a, as per Luke 4:18-19, He closed the scroll then, stopping before: and a Day of the vengeance of our God....
This terrible Day, prophesied in over 100 graphically described scriptures, still awaits fulfilment.

Im inclined to think that Isaiah's "day of vengeance" comment mirrors with Daniel's, "And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" and that was fulfilled in AD 70.

I do not argue that there is not a judgement still future. However, I do contend that it is outside of the count of the 'weeks.' The sabbatical system was given exclusively to Israel and it finished at the end of the 70th week. As best as I can calculate, that date was 9th March (last day of Adar) AD 34.

The 70th week was NOT detached from the 69 and fired off to the future!

 

[jgr]

But Bible prophecy does.
When Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2a, as per Luke 4:18-19, He closed the scroll then, stopping before: and a Day of the vengeance of our God....
This terrible Day, prophesied in over 100 graphically described scriptures, still awaits fulfilment. The gap has ben nearly 2000 years, just as Jesus said there would be from when He commenced His work until He attains His reward. Luke 13:32 Also in Hosea 6:2

Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 21
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke's parallel account to Matthew 24 foretells Christ's prediction of the days of vengeance, which were fulfilled in AD 70.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 21
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke's parallel account to Matthew 24 foretells Christ's prediction of the days of vengeance, which were fulfilled in AD 70.

The simple and undeniable fact is: ALL things were NOT fulfilled in the first century. Did Luke 21:25-26 happen then?
As CG says in#47, there IS Judgements to come and the next will be the Sixth Seal, the actual Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.

With the last 7 years of this age, the several time periods given in Revelation of 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years, which are all a half of seven years. They also relate to Daniel 9:27, Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7. They are not coincidental, they are the second half of the 70th 'week', that will be the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating in Jesus' Return.

 

[BABerean2]

With the last 7 years of this age, the several time periods given in Revelation of 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years, which are all a half of seven years. They also relate to Daniel 9:27, Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7. They are not coincidental, they are the second half of the 70th 'week', that will be the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating in Jesus' Return.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.

It is produced by adding together two of the 42 month periods in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which was the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

Based on Luke 21:24-28, and Romans 11:25, we are now in the times of the Gentiles, which will continue until the Second Coming of Christ.

.

 

[claninja]

But Bible prophecy does.
When Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2a, as per Luke 4:18-19, He closed the scroll then, stopping before: and a Day of the vengeance of our God....

There is a glaring difference between Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 61:1-2:

In daniel a time frame of 70 'sevens' is given, while NO time frame is given in Isaiah.

To support the theory of the gap within a given time frame of the 70 'sevens', one should be able to provide another biblical prophecy, that contains a gap within a set time frame.

 

[claninja]

This passage is quite frankly one of the main nails in the coffin of futurism, as most futurists agree this passage has already been fulfilled... how they can ignore, or worse yet see but refuse to accept, the mechanism if its fulfilment (The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard, Jesus) is quite baffling.

The disciples, who were waiting for Christ's return in the their lifetime, were waiting for salvation, the kingdom, and the resurrection, for this was their hope. The disciples understood that these things would be consummated at Christ's "2nd" coming.

Ironically, many futurists, who don't believe Christ has returned yet, believe we already have salvation, the spiritual kingdom is here, and believers go directly to heaven when they die.

 

[A71]

Yes, well said.
A lot of wool has been pulled over a lot of the sheeps' eyes.

Now, to substantiate your cockamamie gap, provide scriptural
Validification of the type mentioned by Claninja.

Personally, that is the only gap post I could engage in, the rest is just irregular offcuts, guff.......Dangerous guff.

There is a glaring difference between Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 61:1-2:

In daniel a time frame of 70 'sevens' is given, while NO time frame is given in Isaiah.

To support the theory of the gap within a given time frame of the 70 'sevens', one should be able to provide another biblical prophecy, that contains a gap within a set time frame.

 

[Davy]

As much as I am sure about there being a physical temple that is desecrated, (Ezekiel's Temple), the spiritual temple of the Christian body will be desecrated also - which is what the 'pharmakia' of Revelation 18:23 (drugs for sorcery) pertains to. (In which people are unknowingly dosed with hallucinogens, and they mistakenly think that they are possessed by demons/ alien parasites / mind controlling worms, bugs. Presumably, the Pope will pretend to exorcise the world of these manufactured illusions.)

2 Thess.2:4 has nothing to do with a pope.

 

[Davy]

Grammatically, the antecedents cascade. The antecedent of the "he's" in verse 27 is the "prince" in verse 26, associated by proximity. The antecedent of the "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the prince" in verse 25, associated by terminology. Therefore, the cascaded antecedent of the "he's" in verse 27 is "Messiah the prince" in verse 25.

In math, cascading is expressed by the transitive property of equality: If A=B and B=C then A=C.

The YLT is the version most acclaimed for its literal translation accuracy. It recognizes that Messiah is the prince, or Leader, as it translates the Hebrew.

Daniel 9 YLT
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.

Titus and his army were under the command and control of Messiah the prince, as His agents to accomplish His objectives.

Like I said, there is no way to transfer the Messiah in verse 26 to the ruler that destroys the city and sanctuary. One would have to remove Titus and the Roman army from history for that to be, which is another way of how lucicrous such an idea is of trying to make it mean Jesus being Who did that destruction in 70 A.D. To me, it could only be those who hate our Lord Jesus that would come up with that kind of idea:

Dan 9:25-27
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
NIV

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As much as I am sure about there being a physical temple that is desecrated, (Ezekiel's Temple), the spiritual temple of the Christian body will be desecrated also - which is what the 'pharmakia' of Revelation 18:23 (drugs for sorcery) pertains to.

I find it interesting that the greek word for "pharisee" is derived from the greek word meaning sorcery/magic/pharmacy. Will have to look more into this......

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:14
Now the Pharisees/far-isaioi <5330>, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Revelation 9:21
And not they repent/reform out of their murders, nor out from their sorceries/far-makeiwn <5331>.........

5330. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin (c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.
5331. pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

 

[DavidPT]

In Leviticus 25:1-7. Daniels 'weeks' were part of the Hebrew calendar (a calendar based on 'sevens') and, as we all know, calendars do not have gaps.

Then let's see you fit the following into your proposed position-----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


That too has to occur during the 70th week. Let's see you do that without inserting any gaps into it.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The entirety of this verse involves the 70th week. Nothing in this verse is fulfilled outside of the 70th week.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---this gets us to the middle of the week. and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---and this gets us from the middle of the week until the end of the week. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week----this gets us from the beginning of the week until the end of the week. and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---this part does not get us to the end of the week though. But something has to. Wonder what that might be? I already showed what it was.

 

[DavidPT]

Like I said, there is no way to transfer the Messiah in verse 26 to the ruler that destroys the city and sanctuary. One would have to remove Titus and the Roman army from history for that to be, which is another way of how lucicrous such an idea is of trying to make it mean Jesus being Who did that destruction in 70 A.D. To me, it could only be those who hate our Lord Jesus that would come up with that kind of idea:

Dan 9:25-27
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
NIV

If the prince to come is meaning Titus in verse 26, Titus has to be meant in verse 27 as well. But Titus does not fit verse 27 though.

 

[Davy]

John said there were already antichrists among them.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


Paul warned of wolves who would attack and scatter the church. They weren't of the canine variety.

Acts 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


God will always preserve a faithful remnant who will not bow to Baal. But the Church has never been immune to attack.

Paul only ever used "temple" (Greek "naos") as a spiritual metaphor. 2 Thessalonians 2 speaks of a counterfeit spiritual influence that would situate itself within the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.

History confirmed his prediction.

No, Paul was NOT using the "temple of God" phrase as a spiritual metaphor.

Paul was REPEATING a warning of a future event to occur in Jerusalem which our Lord Jesus warned about:

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

The context of that "false Christs" is actually singular. It is the Greek word pseudochristos, and Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined it as 'a spurious Messiah'. It means a fake Jesus, and that's the context of the 23 and 26 verses specifically.

Back just a few verses, Jesus had warned of this "abomination of desolation" event, an idol being setup in false worship per Daniel 11.

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV


That coming pseudo-Christ is who Paul was pointing to sitting in the "temple of God", in Jerusalem, the same one of Matthew 24 that will work those 'great signs and wonders' to deceive with:

2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
KJV


Even in Revelation 13 we were shown about this coming false one again, working those signs and wonders to deceive the world at the end:

Rev 13:13-14
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

It won't be a pope that will do all that. It will be one like the Book of Daniel revealed, one who comes to power as king in Jerusalem at the very end of this present world, just prior to Christ's return.

 

[DavidPT]

John said there were already antichrists among them.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


Paul warned of wolves who would attack and scatter the church. They weren't of the canine variety.

Acts 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


God will always preserve a faithful remnant who will not bow to Baal. But the Church has never been immune to attack.

Paul only ever used "temple" (Greek "naos") as a spiritual metaphor. 2 Thessalonians 2 speaks of a counterfeit spiritual influence that would situate itself within the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.

History confirmed his prediction.

I'm on the same page with you on a lot of this. You have the right idea, but you being of the Preterist camp, and me not, what you might apply to only past history, I might apply some of these things to both past history and the future as well.