Predestination

[Dave L]

Description of Straw Man Fallacy

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Oz

You can wiggle out of this in several ways. But if faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, it does not exist apart from first having the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

You are into circular reasoning, Dave. This conversation can go nowhere when you do this.

You make faith a work of the flesh. Like deciding to believe the salesperson is telling you the truth. Or the preacher is telling you the truth selling his goods. But true faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and needs no decision. You know the truth first hand because the Spirit of truth resides in you and bears witness with your spirit.

 

[Dave L]

Are you really meaning to tell me that 'whoever believes' does NOT in involve the 'whoever' believing.

Is this God believing for people?

Come on, mate!

You cannot believe spiritual truth without the Holy Spirit.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

That's the same as rejecting the offer of salvation. Just as my choosing not to respond to the offer of a cream bun is the same as rejecting the offer.

You are trying to play games with those who oppose your view of Calvinistic predestination. You do not debate the Scriptures provided. You are off and running with imposing your Calvinism on what we write to challenge Calvinism.

What are you doing?

Oz

If your response saves you, you do not trust in Christ. You trust in your response that you think saved you.

 

[Dave L]

That's a Calvinistic imposition on what I wrote. It's a straw man fallacy of my position.

We can't have a rational conversation when you use fallacious reasoning with me.

I'm not a Calvinist. But scripture says salvation is by grace. You make by works when you turn the gospel into a law you must keep.

 

[OzSpen]

If faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, you must already have the Holy Spirit before you can believe in any true sense. Apart from this you have only the sinful flesh to work with. And biblical faith is far different from believing with the flesh.

They are your presuppositions speaking.

 

[OzSpen]

You can wiggle out of this in several ways. But if faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, it does not exist apart from first having the Holy Spirit.

Which means that the fruit of the Spirit grow in the life of a believer AFTER he/she is saved!

 

[OzSpen]

You make faith a work of the flesh. Like deciding to believe the salesperson is telling you the truth. Or the preacher is telling you the truth selling his goods. But true faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and needs no decision. You know the truth first hand because the Spirit of truth resides in you and bears witness with your spirit.

Again, a

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not a Calvinist. But scripture says salvation is by grace. You make by works when you turn the gospel into a law you must keep.

Your views on predestination are those of Calvinistic theology.

We agree that salvation is by grace.

Never anywhere have I ever said that salvation is by works and it is a gospel of law that I must keep. That's another:

 

[Dave L]

Your views on predestination are those of Calvinistic theology.

We agree that salvation is by grace.

Never anywhere have I ever said that salvation is by works and it is a gospel of law that I must keep. That's another:

View attachment 238739

When you make salvation conditional it is no longer grace. You convert the gospel into law for the self-righteous to keep in an attempt to save themselves.

 

[OzSpen]

You cannot believe spiritual truth without the Holy Spirit.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Can anyone believe in the existence of God without the Holy Spirit's work?

 

[OzSpen]

When you make salvation conditional it is no longer grace. You convert the gospel into law for the self-righteous to keep in an attempt to save themselves.

 

[Dave L]

Can anyone believe in the existence of God without the Holy Spirit's work?

Yes. But they cannot know God unless he reveals himself through the New Birth. They will only construct and worship idols, even giving them his name.

 

[Bobber]

Yes. But they cannot know God unless he reveals himself through the New Birth. They will only construct and worship idols, even giving them his name.

Where do you read that in the Bible? All the OT saints didn't have the New Birth as we know it today yet they knew God enough in the sense that they could respond to him. And where do you get that when people just know God exists with only that such means the only thing they can do is worship idols. I'd suggest you can't extrapolate that out of Rom 1 if that's what you're doing.

 

[Dave L]

Where do you read that in the Bible? All the OT saints didn't have the New Birth as we know it today yet they knew God enough in the sense that they could respond to him. And where do you get that when people just know God exists with only that such means the only thing they can do is worship idols. I'd suggest you can't extrapolate that out of Rom 1 if that's what you're doing.

Circumcision of the heart = New Birth

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Circumcision of the heart = New Birth

In the Old Testament, it also had to do with being humble and not stiffnecked or stubborn - removing the obstruction of pride, perhaps, so one's heart was properly sensitive and receptive to God's will?

ESV: Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.
KJV: Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

[Loren T.]

where in scripture is anyone told to "accept"....they are commanded to repent and believe the gospel.

But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]

21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”[l]

How much clearer do you need to be shown that people can refuse to humble themselves, can choose not to have faith? They heard, they understood, but they still disobeyed and refused to repent. If God is just zapping some people with faith and not others, then God is doing what here? Holding out his hands to himself, and desiring that he would do what he is asking them to do? The result of your strange theology is a schizophrenic god.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

That's correct, but it's not what Eph 2:8 teaches in the Greek. This verse does not teach faith is a gift of God. That's how it can appear in an English translation, but not so in the Greek, as I've explained to Apologetic_Warrior above.

The NIRV helps to bring out the meaning of the Greek: 'God’s grace has saved you because of your faith in Christ. Your salvation doesn’t come from anything you do. It is God’s gift'.

In the greek....salvation is said to be....by ...or through faith...
NEVER,NEVER, BECAUSE OF FAITH...NEVER, NOT ONCE.
Not even in this bogus translation you are using...lol

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]

21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”[l]

How much clearer do you need to be shown that people can refuse to humble themselves, can choose not to have faith? They heard, they understood, but they still disobeyed and refused to repent. If God is just zapping some people with faith and not others, then God is doing what here? Holding out his hands to himself, and desiring that he would do what he is asking them to do? The result of your strange theology is a schizophrenic god.

It sounds that way to those who have and serve the idol of the supposed free will of the creature....It is the language of scripture that God has mercy on who He will have mercy on.
You hate that truth....that is between you and God.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Free will as an idol is the presumption of autonomous reasoning, that is independent reasoning that Jesus is the Christ with a [dead] faith that is independent of God before God has mercy making them alive in Christ and sealing them with His Spirit. The reasoning, convincing, and convicting by the Spirit of God is theonomous.