Predestination

[Loren T.]

The same is true for your false gospel.

So it is your belief that all non Calvinist are heretics?

 

[Dave L]

So it is your belief that all non Calvinist are heretics?

I'm not a Calvinist. But you add to the gospel when you make it conditional. Grace is unconditional. You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe.

 

[Loren T.]

I'm not a Calvinist. But you add to the gospel when you make it conditional. Grace is unconditional. You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe.

The Bible says belief comes first. I'll go with scripture.

 

[Dave L]

The Bible says belief comes first. I'll go with scripture.

No, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must already have before faith is possible.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The Bible says belief comes first. I'll go with scripture.

No, it say's a man must be born again first. = Regeneration

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Pratical application: I assume that you are not in favor of telling people to accept Christ as their personal Savior?
Luke 3:8 produce the fruit of repentance.
Hebrews 7:25 Come to God
Revelation 22:17 let he who is thirsty come.

Salvation is conditional. God is not a swat team kicking down your door and dragging you in by the hair.

where in scripture is anyone told to "accept"....they are commanded to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

No, it say's a man must be born again first. = Regeneration

I suppose Lazurus had to believe first before he was given life from the dead...lol

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I said several times, you import free will into scripture. This destroys grace and promotes works and self righteousness.

Yes...this is the strongman idol.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I'm sorry to say AW that that is not what Eph 2:8 teaches. I read and have taught NT Greek. Let's check the exegesis of Eph 2:8,

Here is a technical Greek explanation from A T Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament for Eph 2:8,

For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.​

Let's use the translation you provided:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Note:
grace = charis = noun of feminine gender;
faith = pistis = noun of feminine gender;
that = neuter relative pronoun.

If 'that' was to refer to faith as a gift of God, it would need to be feminine gender for the relative pronoun to agree with its antecedent in gender. It isn't.

So, Robertson, one of the esteemed Greek grammarians of the 20th century, rightly states 'and that' cannot refer to grace or faith but 'to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part'.

Therefore, this verses teaches as Robertson said so succinctly: '"Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours'.

God provides salvation by grace. There is no forced, unconditional election but 'faith' as our response to hearing the Gospel.

To call this self-righteousness by the recipient of salvation or to accuse Arminians of engaging in man-made salvation is false. It's a straw man argument.

Oz

salvation is the gift of God. repentance and faith are part of it....
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life

 

[OzSpen]

It is a fact, if your response saves you = salvation is for the self-righteous.

That's a Calvinistic imposition on what I wrote. It's a straw man fallacy of my position.

We can't have a rational conversation when you use fallacious reasoning with me.

 

[Loren T.]

Calvinists: "You get saved twice. God has to regenerate you in order to regenerate you."

 

[OzSpen]

What if you choose not to respond?

Dave,

That's the same as rejecting the offer of salvation. Just as my choosing not to respond to the offer of a cream bun is the same as rejecting the offer.

You are trying to play games with those who oppose your view of Calvinistic predestination. You do not debate the Scriptures provided. You are off and running with imposing your Calvinism on what we write to challenge Calvinism.

What are you doing?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You are dragging free will into scripture and interpreting it in that fashion. Her's an example. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. You say whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. Jesus is simply telling how to spot a saved person by their faith. But you turn what he said into a law for the self-righteous to use in an attempt to save themselves by choosing to believe.

Are you really meaning to tell me that 'whoever believes' does NOT in involve the 'whoever' believing.

Is this God believing for people?

Come on, mate!

 

[OzSpen]

edit

 

[OzSpen]

The same is true for your false gospel.

You are into circular reasoning, Dave. This conversation can go nowhere when you do this.

 

[OzSpen]

You are dragging free will into scripture and interpreting it in that fashion. Her's an example. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. You say whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. Jesus is simply telling how to spot a saved person by their faith. But you turn what he said into a law for the self-righteous to use in an attempt to save themselves by choosing to believe.

Description of Straw Man Fallacy

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

salvation is the gift of God. repentance and faith are part of it....
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life

That's correct, but it's not what Eph 2:8 teaches in the Greek. This verse does not teach faith is a gift of God. That's how it can appear in an English translation, but not so in the Greek, as I've explained to Apologetic_Warrior above.

The NIRV helps to bring out the meaning of the Greek: 'God’s grace has saved you because of your faith in Christ. Your salvation doesn’t come from anything you do. It is God’s gift'.

 

[OzSpen]

No, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must already have before faith is possible.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Dave,

Here you go again with imposing your presuppositions on Gal 5:22-23, 'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law' (ESV).

What an oxymoron you have given us: 'faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must already have before faith is possible'. In your view, one must have faith before faith is possible. That's a perfect example of pulling the exegetical genie out of the hat.

Who is Paul addressing in Gal 5? Verses 1 and 13 indicate they are those who are free in Christ and those who are adelphoi (brothers and sisters). The fruit of the Spirit deals with growth in grace for BELIEVERS. It is not teaching about initial faith, but about fruit of sanctification, including how we behave ourselves as believers.

Therefore, it is legitimate to translate pistis, not as faith, but faithfulness.

The more you reply, the deeper you dig yourself into the hole of irrelevance.

Oz

 

[sdowney717]

That's correct, but it's not what Eph 2:8 teaches in the Greek. This verse does not teach faith is a gift of God. That's how it can appear in an English translation, but not so in the Greek, as I've explained to Apologetic_Warrior above.

The NIRV helps to bring out the meaning of the Greek: 'God’s grace has saved you because of your faith in Christ. Your salvation doesn’t come from anything you do. It is God’s gift'.

Acts 3:16
AMP And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health and complete wholeness in your presence.

AMPC And His name, through and by faith in His name, has made this man whom you see and recognize well and strong. [Yes] the faith which is through and by Him [Jesus] has given the man this perfect soundness [of body] before all of you.

Faith is a gift, but a gift is then ours we own it. But it was given to us. I take scripture personally as if intended for me, not corporately like you seem to do?

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Hebrews 12:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

12 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

Here you go again with imposing your presuppositions on Gal 5:22-23, 'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law' (ESV).

What an oxymoron you have given us: 'faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must already have before faith is possible'. In your view, one must have faith before faith is possible. That's a perfect example of pulling the exegetical genie out of the hat.

Who is Paul addressing in Gal 5? Verses 1 and 13 indicate they are those who are free in Christ and those who are adelphoi (brothers and sisters). The fruit of the Spirit deals with growth in grace for BELIEVERS. It is not teaching about initial faith, but about fruit of sanctification, including how we behave ourselves as believers.

Therefore, it is legitimate to translate pistis, not as faith, but faithfulness.

The more you reply, the deeper you dig yourself into the hole of irrelevance.

Oz

If faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, you must already have the Holy Spirit before you can believe in any true sense. Apart from this you have only the sinful flesh to work with. And biblical faith is far different from believing with the flesh.