Predestination

[Dave L]

False again! God disagrees with your view (which came with no biblical support):

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse (Rom 1:18-20 NIV).​

It is obvious God exists. Creation is evidence of his power. This leaves people without excuse. But consider Jesus' words"

“When Jesus came to the area of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!” (Matthew 16:13–17)

Unless God reveals Christ to us, we worship only idols. We even assign his name to them.

 

[Dave L]

I've provided Scriptures to support the biblical views I've expounded.

What's your response? Your opinion, which is what you gave us here. Not one Scripture to lead us to believe this is a biblical view.

The problem is this: you can read scripture two ways. And we both read it differently. I understand that "whosoever believes" is a characteristic saved people will have. You understand "whosoever believes" is a condition people must meet in order to save themselves. But if it is a condition as you assume, then only the self-righteous will choose to comply.

This latter view also depicts God as a bully who threatens people to "say uncle". Instead of the merciful God of the bible who saves those who cannot save themselves.

 

[Dave L]

Seriously? If someone is proud that they were humble enough to fall on God s mercy, then that person would be self righteous. But being proud of your humility is an oxymoron. We give God all the credit for our salvation. And BTW, before Augustine, the students of the apostles students all believed in free will. Were the Christians one generation removed from the apostles following a false religion?

If you must respond to initiate your salvation, you are the savior. And you rob Christ of his glory suggesting he only provides opportunity for the self-righteous to save themselves.

 

[Bobber]

neither verse says anything about free will,...it is not there. A person can choose without their will being free.
There is no verse speaking of mans will being free,because it does not exist.

Scripture discussed here....
If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or [whether] I speak from myself. John 17:7

So you believe Jesus went around just making these meaningless statements that have no connection to any purpose? Isn't that what they'd be if Jesus wasn't telling them they have free will to choose or not to choose? He's basically saying "Look if you choose to believe God will manifest himself to you in such a way that you'll know it's absolute truth" First comes the choosing then comes the manifesting. It seems Calvinist types have it backwards....they put God does the manifesting....and then oh well your choices will start being right.

 

[Bobber]

If you must respond to initiate your salvation, you are the savior. And you rob Christ of his glory suggesting he only provides opportunity for the self-righteous to save themselves.

Nonsense! Just because you want to spout that off doesn't make it so! If fact if a good wealthy man left a widow woman a sum of money to bless her would you condemn her as he told you how she received it? "Well I reached out my hand and took the check!" Nope can't do that dear Lady...that'd be like you having something to do with it! Makes me wonder if you'd just slap that check out of her hand and tell her she was too proud to have it anyway.

 

[Dave L]

Nonsense! Just because you want to spout that off doesn't make it so! If fact if a good wealthy man left a widow woman a sum of money to bless her would you condemn her as he told you how she received it? "Well I reached out my hand and took the check!" Nope can't do that dear Lady...that'd be like you having something to do with it! Makes me wonder if you'd just slap that check out of her hand and tell her she was too proud to have it anyway.

This is not how God saves sinners. You make yourself the savior in this illustration.

 

[Loren T.]

What is funny is that you have been asked several times to produce any such verse , you cannot even though you claim the bible is full of them...lol

not one verse...it is an invention of carnal philosophy

Read the Bible one time without imposing onto it the theology that you have been taught by men. From:

"15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

To:
"18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

The Bible is full of commands and men's free choices of whether to obey those commands or not. To suggest otherwise is to render the whole Book meaningless.

 

[Loren T.]

This is not how God saves sinners. You make yourself the savior in this illustration.

Not once have you backed up this claim. You appear to be just making this stuff up as you go.

 

[Dave L]

Read the Bible one time without imposing onto it the theology that you have been taught by men. From:

"15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

To:
"18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

The Bible is full of commands and men's free choices of whether to obey those commands or not. To suggest otherwise is to render the whole Book meaningless.

You are confusing works (law) with grace. You think all is law and works and nothing of grace (unmerited favor).

 

[Dave L]

Not once have you backed up this claim. You appear to be just making this stuff up as you go.

You read free will into scripture and this forms the basis for your legalism in place of grace.

 

[Loren T.]

"Loren T.,

[Again, no answers, no explaining of the Word, just assertions. The lie I hate is that God is unjust in his dealings with men. Who God has mercy on is not unconditional, in fact that statement is taken from a passage where God's interaction with men decides who he will have mercy on. ]

You do not understand the passage at all.God does not wait to see what man does....He already has chosen the objects of His mercy.

I have an idea. How about I go with what God says instead of what you say?

Here's what God says: 17And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

So, if God says he will do something because a man asked and he is pleased with that man, who are you, oh, man to talk back to God?

 

[Loren T.]

You read free will into scripture and this forms the basis for your legalism in place of grace.

Another bald assertion that is not backing up your claims, it's just restating them using different words.

 

[Dave L]

Another bald assertion that is not backing up your claims, it's just restating them using different words.

Free will = legalism = your approach to the gospel.

 

[Bobber]

You understand "whosoever believes" is a condition people must meet in order to save themselves.

You got it Dave! And all should heed the instruction and warning of Peter to do just that,

With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Acts 2:40

Of course Calvinistic types if they were there that day would probably call Peter down.

"How dare you Peter make it seem that one can do ANYTHING to save themselves! Don't you know it's all God? Even to put it like you did leaves a false impression Bud! Hey writers putting that down! See if you can exclude that last statement Peter just made. He was probably just having a bad day and let something silly slip into his sermon!"

Thing is though the Bible says he was filled with the Holy Spirit when he said these things by inspiration. Acts 2:4

This latter view also depicts God as a bully who threatens people to "say uncle". Instead of the merciful God of the bible who saves those who cannot save themselves.

Come on! All God is asking the sinner to do is the equivalent of saying "I DO" as in marriage and then God's grace and power comes in and does that rest. So you suggest God's a bully for wanting to get a free will choice from the sinner before he proceeds? So if you have marriageable age daughter and you heard a man just dragged her into the church and told her to forget the need to say "I DO" that they've taken care of that themselves, just stand there and look pretty and don't say a word for remember if you say a word that might be participating YOU PROUD THING YOU well you're telling us you'd be OK with that? Don't think so Dave. I think you'd be busting the door down of that church and would be yelling out, "Stop! This ain't going to happen!" I'd even think you might say to the man, "Who do you think you are you bully!"

 

[Dave L]

You got it Dave! And all should heed the instruction and warning of Peter to do just that,

With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Acts 2:40

Of course Calvinistic types if they were there that day would probably call Peter down.

"How dare you Peter make it seem that one can do ANYTHING to save themselves! Don't you know it's all God? Even to put it like you did leaves a false impression Bud! Hey writers putting that down! See if you can exclude that last statement Peter just made. He was probably just having a bad day and let something silly slip into his sermon!"

Thing is though the Bible says he was filled with the Holy Spirit when he said these things by inspiration. Acts 2:4



Come on! All God is asking the sinner to do is the equivalent of saying "I DO" as in marriage and then God's grace and power comes in and does that rest. So you suggest God's a bully for wanting to get a free will choice from the sinner before he proceeds? So if you have marriageable age daughter and you heard a man just dragged her into the church and told her to forget the need to say "I DO" that they've taken care of that themselves, just stand there and look pretty and don't say a word for remember if you say a word that might be participating YOU PROUD THING YOU well you're telling us you'd be OK with that? Don't think so Dave. I think you'd be busting the door down of that church and would be yelling out, "Stop! This ain't going to happen!" I'd even think you might say to the man, "Who do you think you are you bully!"

That generation had been marked for destruction which happened in 70AD. The believers got out of town before it hit. When they saw the abomination of desolation looming.

 

[Bobber]

That generation had been marked for destruction which happened in 70AD. The believers got out of town before it hit. When they saw the abomination of desolation looming.

What are you talking about! That wasn't for another 50 years! Peter in his sermons here never mentioned anything about the future of Jerusalem and your claim he was telling the people of that region to clear out of town is without any substance in fact even beyond that! Look at the verse below and see where the people were from. (see below)

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” Acts 2:5-12

So you're claiming his saying, "Save yourself" means get out of this town when they were not even going to be in that town or region anyway? And it's something 50 years away? Why not just in humility admit it? Yes Peter was telling them to cooperate with God and repent which is saving themselves at least up to the part where God does the REAL substantial thing....imparts eternal life into their spirits. Tell me why Calvinistic thinking doesn't go down the tube on this very verse?

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Free Will misrepresents God. It depicts God as a bully who threatens to torture people forever if they do not "say uncle" or whatever act of the will it takes to appease him. And it also depicts God as buying people off promising rewards and perks if they "choose" to comply.

But this is not the God of the bible. Who saves people who cannot save themselves in his mercy. Taking the punishment owed to them upon his own-self in Christ on the cross.

John 3:16 KJV: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This verse doesn't make sense if people aren't free to believe in Him. But..

John 6:44 KJV: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So unless the Father draws us, we can't come to Jesus.

Isn't it possible that the truth is a combination of both? Those of us who come to God come to Him by His will - those of us who don't, God enabled them to reject Him (as he hardened Pharaoh's heart to resist Him)?

 

[Dave L]

John 3:16 KJV: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This verse doesn't make sense if people aren't free to believe in Him. But..

John 6:44 KJV: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So unless the Father draws us, we can't come to Jesus.

Isn't it possible that the truth is a combination of both? Those of us who come to God come to Him by His will - those of us who don't, God enabled them to reject Him (as he hardened Pharaoh's heart to resist Him)?

The reason it doesn't make sense to you is that God must first give the Holy Spirit to those who ten believe in him. Because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. If it is as you say, people must first act like Christians to become one = hypocrisy.

 

[Dave L]

What are you talking about! That wasn't for another 50 years! Peter in his sermons here never mentioned anything about the future of Jerusalem and your claim he was telling the people of that region to clear out of town is without any substance in fact even beyond that! Look at the verse below and see where the people were from. (see below)

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” Acts 2:5-12

So you're claiming his saying, "Save yourself" means get out of this town when they were not even going to be in that town or region anyway? And it's something 50 years away? Why not just in humility admit it? Yes Peter was telling them to cooperate with God and repent which is saving themselves at least up to the part where God does the REAL substantial thing....imparts eternal life into their spirits. Tell me why Calvinistic thinking doesn't go down the tube on this very verse?

Jesus even told them to escape the wrath to come speaking of Jerusalem's destruction.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

The reason it doesn't make sense to you is that God must first give the Holy Spirit to those who ten believe in him. Because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. If it is as you say, people must first act like Christians to become one = hypocrisy.

Then what is the purpose of preaching repent?