Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

[Hank77]

From an outside perspective it is interesting to note that we would not be having all this discussion if the Jesuits have not counteracted the reformation with the counter reformation..., most specifically if they have not being successful to seed the devils seed of Futurism into the Church....
You don't need to "harmonize" Luke 21 with Matthew 24 IF you were not trying to acomodate the Bible into your futuristic beliefs.
There are some strong evidence that the Church is Lukewarm and a heavy persecution will come over the church exactly because people think they will be "raptured" ....
Luke and Matthew are referring to the one and same event(s): The destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the JEW AGE.
That is the reason Jesus ref. to the "times of the gentiles" just after that meaning the age of Jews (witnessing) is over and the age of gentiles witnessing for Jesus would start and continue until Jesus comes back.

The point of the OP is that by harmonizing Matthew, Mark, and Luke one can see that they are all talking about the same event; the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple in 70AD. The Mosaic economy came to an end.

Today's equivalent of the Jewish courts in time of Jesus is the Catholic Church Inquisition and or all the persecution the Catholic church promotes on true christians through their covered actions .
Bible is very clear that real Jews are the ones that are "Circumcised" in the heart and that the Church is the "Israel of God"...

The Gospels were not about priests in the Roman church but about the Jewish Sanhedrin courts which existed during the time of the Apostles before Jerusalem was destroyed.

 

[Hank77]

Thanks for posting.
I was finding a few verses in Luke 17 that matched up with Matthew
I had never really delved into this chapter of Luke but it appears to be similar to the Olivet Discourse.
It doesn't say exactly where Jesus is when He is giving this discourse to the Disciples, just that He was traveling to Jerusalem, then stopped at a village. What are your thoughts on Luke 17?

I am thinking of working on this chapter when I am thru with harmonizing the Olivet Discourse.

Luke 17:
11 On the way to Jerusalem he was passing along between Samaria and Galilee. 12 And as he entered a village, he was met by ten lepers,f who stood at a distance......

20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”h

22 And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them. 24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.i 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”j 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpsek is, there the vulturesl will gather.”

I haven't studied this is a long while but I'll give it shot. and see what I remember.

22 And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them. 24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.i 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32Remember Lot’s wife.

Luk 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation;
Luk 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;
Luk 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all things that have been written.

Luke 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

Just how God told Noah to build the ark to save his family, and told Lot to flee Sodom and not look back, Jesus tells the disciples to flee Jerusalem when they see certain signs. They obeyed by faith and so they were saved from the coming desolation.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”j 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpsek is, there the vulturesl will gather.

night = not night as the opposite of day, but night as in a time of carelessness, neglect, and spiritual darkness.

Josephus, in the Wars of the Jews, tells us that no Christians died or were taken captives. He says they left and went to the area of Pella. Tens of thousands of Jews died in Judea and the horrors of those trapped in the city are truly horrific. Famine, pestilence, murders, disease,....
Tens of thousands more were sold into slavery in places like Egypt. Those who were left had lost most everything they held dear.

So when disciples ask 'Where Lord?" He tells them that being taken means they will die, they are the corpses left by the Roman armies/vultures/eagles/birds of prey. They die from a lack of faith.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

/////////////////////

 

[Choose Wisely]

Thank you for your response. I'd like to get one thing clear...
You believe that Christians will be delivered up to Jewish courts, the Sanhedrin, in the future?

No. I believe that the Christians are taken in the pretribulation rapture, at the trump of God prior to the opening of the seals. It will be like the days of Noah when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. It is the time when the GOODMAN will not know when the master will come. In an hour when you think not, the son of man cometh. The fullness of the Gentles will be come in and the doors are closed.

Then the tribulation begins, and God deals with the elect, the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. The Temple will be rebuilt at some point before the rapture of the Church or right after. At the midst of the week the sacrifice will be taken away. 1290 days later the abomination of desolation will be set up. Those in Jerusalem will then flee. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light and the stars fall from heaven. Then the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured......as proven by the 144000 first fruits, 12000 from each tribe. They are told to look up their redemption draweth nigh. They are not in darkness that that day will overtake them as a thief. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. This prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes will happen at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets.

Then the wrath of God begins. The remnant in the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God. Everyone else is in heaven for the marriage supper and returns to earth on white horses at the end of the wrath of God.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Well then, while you and/or others are waiting around for the Jews to build a Temple/Sanctuary for the "antichrist" to sit in, I am going to continue on with my harmonizing......

I suspect when they rebuild that Temple you will have trouble seeing it, because it will be fairly small compared to the restored nation of Israel that lots of people can't seem to see. God does exactly what He says He will do.

 

[Hank77]

No. I believe that the Christians are taken in the pretribulation rapture, at the trump of God prior to the opening of the seals. It will be like the days of Noah when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. It is the time when the GOODMAN will not know when the master will come. In an hour when you think not, the son of man cometh. The fullness of the Gentles will be come in and the doors are closed.

Then the tribulation begins, and God deals with the elect, the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. The Temple will be rebuilt at some point before the rapture of the Church or right after. At the midst of the week the sacrifice will be taken away. 1290 days later the abomination of desolation will be set up. Those in Jerusalem will then flee. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light and the stars fall from heaven. Then the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured......as proven by the 144000 first fruits, 12000 from each tribe. They are told to look up their redemption draweth nigh. They are not in darkness that that day will overtake them as a thief. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. This prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes will happen at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets.

Then the wrath of God begins. The remnant in the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God. Everyone else is in heaven for the marriage supper and returns to earth on white horses at the end of the wrath of God.

Could have just said you are a dispensationist. I was for many years.

So how does this verse in Matthew fit in if Christians will be raptured before the tribulation?
Mat 24:9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;

 

[Choose Wisely]

Could have just said you are a dispensationist. I was for many years.

Saying I am a dispensationalist wouldn't quite cover what I believe.

So how does this verse in Matthew fit in if Christians will be raptured before the tribulation?
Mat 24:9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;

The Church is already gone pre trib. If you pay attention when Jesus is talking about the last days in Matt 24 it lines up with the opening of the seals.
For example Matt 24:9 is the 6th seal in Rev 6
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

[Hank77]

Saying I am a dispensationalist wouldn't quite cover what I believe.



The Church is already gone pre trib. If you pay attention when Jesus is talking about the last days in Matt 24 it lines up with the opening of the seals.
For example Matt 24:9 is the 6th seal in Rev 6
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Never mind. I've asked twice about Matt. 24:9 but you haven't answered to that verse.
God Bless

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Never mind. I've asked twice about Matt. 24:9 but you haven't answered to that verse.
God Bless

Here is the link to it if he or anyone else wants to comment on it.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

 

[Choose Wisely]

Never mind. I've asked twice about Matt. 24:9 but you haven't answered to that verse.
God Bless

What are you talking about. I have clearly answered your question.

The church will be GONE in the pre tribulation rapture. They are not on the earth when Matthew 24:9 occurs.

The 7 seals have not been opened yet. Matthew 24:9 is a future event which I clearly showed you in previous posts.

 

[Hank77]

Saying I am a dispensationalist wouldn't quite cover what I believe.



The Church is already gone pre trib. If you pay attention when Jesus is talking about the last days in Matt 24 it lines up with the opening of the seals.
For example Matt 24:9 is the 6th seal in Rev 6
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This is your previous post. You quoted Matt. 24:29 as being the opening of the sixth seal.

The church will be GONE in the pre tribulation rapture. They are not on the earth when Matthew 24:9 occurs.

If the all the believers are gone before Matt. 24:9 occurs who are the disciples that Jesus is talking about in this verse?
Mat 24:9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All 3 passages ask the same 2 questions:

when? shall these be,
and what? the sign

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us,
when? shall these be,
and what? the sign<4592>
of the Thy parousia,
and together-finish<4930> of the age.

In Mark 13, it shows only Peter, James, John and Andrew coming to ask Him questions:

Mark 13
3 and of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives facing the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him privately
4 Tell us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21
5 And as some were speaking about the temple, that it was adorned with goodly stones and consecrated gifts, He said,
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be
And what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

Has anyone noticed that Mark13:3 mentions only 4 Apostles and none of the other 2 Gospel accounts mention those specific ones?
Any significance to that?

Mark 13
3 and of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives facing the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him privately............

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I voted "other" because it depends upon what parts of the chapters are being compared.

Not sure what you mean.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All 3 passages ask the same 2 questions:

when? shall these be,
and what? the sign

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us,
when? shall these be,
and what? the sign<4592>
of the Thy parousia,
and together-finish<4930> of the age.

In Mark 13, it shows only Peter, James, John and Andrew coming to ask Him questions:
Mark 13
3 and of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives facing the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him privately
4 Tell us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these.
Luke 21
5 And as some were speaking about the temple, that it was adorned with goodly stones and consecrated gifts, He said,
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be
And what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

Each of these 3 accounts use the exact same form of the greek word #4592.

[For those interested, I use this site to get the "koine greek" from:
Greek and Hebrew Reader Online]

4592. semeion say-mi'-on neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of 4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally:--miracle, sign, token, wonder.
Strong's Number G4592 matches the Greek σημεῖον (sēmeion), which occurs 77 times in 69 verses

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us,
when? shall these be,
and what? the sign/σημεῖον<4592> of the Thy parousia,
and together-finish<4930> of the age.

Mark 13
4 Tell us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign/σημεῖον<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be
And what? the sign/σημεῖον<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

The exact form of #4592 used in the above 3 verses is used only 3 times in Revelation

Revelation 12:
1 And a great sign/σημεῖον<4592> was seen in heaven:
a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars,
3 And another sign/σημεῖον<4592> was seen in heaven,
and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads, seven diadems

Revelation 15:1
And I saw another great and wonderful sign/σημεῖον<4592> in heaven:
seven angels, having seven plagues—the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All 3 passages ask the same 2 questions:

when? shall these be,
and what? the sign

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be,
and what? the sign<4592> of the Thy parousia, and together-finish<4930> of the age.

Matthew uses a rather unique word in 24:3, #3952.
It is used only 4 times in the Gospels, all in Matt 24

It uses the root word "ousia", which appears to mean "substance or goods, etc."

3952. parousia par-oo-see'-aha
being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence.
3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e...............
3776. ousia oo-see'-ah from the feminine of 5607; substance, i.e. property (possessions):--goods, substance.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be,
and what? the sign of the Thy parousia<3952>, and together-finish<4930> of the age".

This particular form is used in 6 verses

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times.
Matthew 24:3; Philippians 1:26, 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8; James 5:7, 2 Peter 3:4

2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we implore you, brothers, by the parousiaV <3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him,
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His parousia<2952>,

James 5:7
Therefore be patient, brothers, until the parousiaV<2952> of the Lord. Behold, the farmer awaits the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it until it receives the early and latter rains

2 Peter 3:4
and saying, “Where is the promise of His parousiaV<2952>? For from the time that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be, and what? the sign<4592> of the Thy parousia<3952>, and together-finish<4930> of the age.

The word #4930 is used only 6 times, 5 in Matthew and 1 in Hebrews.

4930. sun-teleia from 4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
4931. sunteleo from 4862 and 5055; to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfill, make.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be, and what? the sign of the Thy parousia,
and full end<4930> of the age.

Matthew 13:
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end<4930> of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
40 ‘As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end<4930> of this age,

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,)
and behold! I AM being with ye all the days — till the full end<4930> of the age.

Hebrews uses the plural "ages" in this verse.

Hebrew 9:26
since it had behoved Him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end<4930> of the ages, for putting away of sin through His sacrifice, He hath been manifested<5319>;

 

[joshua 1 9]

I suspect when they rebuild that Temple

They already tried to do that. About 19 people were killed.

https://www.jpost.com/Features/In-Thespotlight/This-Week-in-History-Deadly-riots-on-the-Temple-Mount

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/09/...s-killed-in-battle-with-jerusalem-police.html

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Mark and Luke both use the exact form of the greek word #3195, which is used in only 1 other verse of the NT, Revelation 10:7

3195. mello a strengthened form of 3199 (through the idea of expectation); to intend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation):-

Mark 13
3 and of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives facing the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired of Him privately 4 Tell us! when? shall these be and what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about/μέλλῃ<3195> these.

Luke 21
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher! when? then shall these be, and what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about/μέλλῃ<3195> these to becoming?

Behold!

Revelation 10:
5 The Messenger whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up His hand to heaven
6 and swore by Him who is living into the ages of the ages, Who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,
7 but in the days of the sound of the seventh Messenger, whenever He may being about/μέλλῃ<3195> to be trumpeting,
is finished the Mystery of the God, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

 

[Choose Wisely]

This is your previous post. You quoted Matt. 24:29 as being the opening of the sixth seal.

Matthew 24:29 is the opening of the sixth seal

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

If the all the believers are gone before Matt. 24:9 occurs who are the disciples that Jesus is talking about in this verse?
Mat 24:9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;

1. The church is raptured in the pretribulation rapture.
2. The seals are opened.
3. God turns his attention to His Elect, the twelve tribes, as God keeps His promise and regrafts them to the olive tree.

So the answer to your question is that it is the 12 tribes of Israel.

The twelve tribes are raptured in the pre wrath rapture which is seen here......among other places.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

N M............NP