Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[redleghunter]

We know this story RLH
We can't know who's saved and who's not saved.
We can only go by what they tell us.
To me, it sounded like they were both saved.
Anyway, scripture is plain and simple in stating we are to guard our salvation.

1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

If we fall away from the faith, it means we no longer have faith.

If it's faith that saves us and we no longer have faith,,,we can no longer be saved.

I asked this given you mentioned some walked away. Just wondered if they turned in their 'altar card' or something...

 

[GodsGrace101]

I asked this given you mentioned some walked away. Just wondered if they turned in their 'altar card' or something...

Yes. I understand...
I thought it was funny.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes. I understand...
I thought it was funny.

It can be but also sadness. Decisional regeneration has really confused a lot of people attending church over the past few decades if not century plus.

https://www.gotquestions.org/decisional-regeneration.html

 

[GodsGrace101]

It can be but also sadness. Decisional regeneration has really confused a lot of people attending church over the past few decades if not century plus.

https://www.gotquestions.org/decisional-regeneration.html

It can be but also sadness. Decisional regeneration has really confused a lot of people attending church over the past few decades if not century plus.

https://www.gotquestions.org/decisional-regeneration.html

You knew I was going to ask what it is!!

I agree with a lot of what QotQuestions says about this. I have often criticized it myself.

But, of course, the article goes to the U in TULIP. If I remember you're calvinist in theology. And, I can't agree with this.

 

[redleghunter]

You knew I was going to ask what it is!!

I agree with a lot of what QotQuestions says about this. I have often criticized it myself.

But, of course, the article goes to the U in TULIP. If I remember you're calvinist in theology. And, I can't agree with this.

Ignore that part. I think we agree that this decisional theology has done a lot of hurt to churches over the past century. One can find it anywhere and not exclusive to Reformed or Arminian brands.

My point is, we get a whole lot of "I made a decision for Jesus X amount of years ago but no longer am a Christian" comments a lot on chat boards. I would say quite a many (not all) are due to an understanding of signing some card or making some altar call about a 'decision' the person made is indicative of 'saved.'

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ignore that part. I think we agree that this decisional theology has done a lot of hurt to churches over the past century. One can find it anywhere and not exclusive to Reformed or Arminian brands.

My point is, we get a whole lot of "I made a decision for Jesus X amount of years ago but no longer am a Christian" comments a lot on chat boards. I would say quite a many (not all) are due to an understanding of signing some card or making some altar call about a 'decision' the person made is indicative of 'saved.'

I agree.
Just because someone walks down an isle doesn't mean he's saved. Dedicating ones self to God means following God and changing his life to please God. It means being a follower, a disciple of Jesus.

I would suppose that someone walking down an isle or signing a paper knows, at the very least, that they are in need of salvation. I hope we don't have to get into why some accept and some don't. There are so many things we won't really know till we go to the other side and then all will be known.
And God will have a good laugh.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well FG, YOU could be one of those that are not exegeting properly since the idea of eternal security wasn't even around in the first century.

You can reject, deny, and ignore the clear teaching of Jesus in John 10:28 all you want. But you've got no evidence from Scripture.

All the evidence shouts eternal security.

God inspired the writers, not the language.

OK, what is your point? The writers USE words, if you didn't know that. So we need to know what the words mean.

Lexicons...They never have changed my mind YET.

Well, that explains a lot.

I've explained John 10:28 many times to you.
But I keep doing it for those reading along.

No you haven't. I have. And I have even color coded it for clarity.

I asked you to prove that Jesus DIDN'T teach that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Don't you know WHEN one receives eternal life? It's WHEN one believes, as John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 plainly indicates. Whosoever believes HAS (that means possesses) eternal life.

But feel free to prove the opposite, if you can.

I've also posted some early church theologians to you but you tell me they're not inspired.

Why do you think they were inspired by the Holy Spirit? Didn't you read the end of Revelation, about "adding to" or "taking away" from God's word?

If you accept that early church "fathers" were Holy Spirit inspired, why would you deny that my writings are inspired as well? What's the difference? Just what has been written?

I guess Calvin, who came up with eternal security, was inspired?

He didn't come up wth it. What a joke.

What you cannot prove, is that a believer, who has been sealed IN HIM by the Spirit, as a guarantee for their inheritance as God's possession (Eph 1:13,14) can be unsealed.

That's the achilles heel in your theories and opinions.

You see, FG, those who were close to Jesus and close to those who learned from those closest to Him, are not speaking of losing rewards, of crowns, of places of honor....They're speaking of losing salvation.

That just shows that they rejected the truth of Eph 1;13,14 and John 10:28. So much for their "inspiration" by the Holy Spirit.

What you believe regarding rewards and fellowship is also a modern idea.

Why does "reward" occur 24 times in the NT? Please explain.

Why does "fellowship" occur 12 times in the NT, and 7 of those verses refer to Christ or the Holy Spirit? Please explain.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You can reject, deny, and ignore the clear teaching of Jesus in John 10:28 all you want. But you've got no evidence from Scripture.

All the evidence shouts eternal security.


OK, what is your point? The writers USE words, if you didn't know that. So we need to know what the words mean.


Well, that explains a lot.


No you haven't. I have. And I have even color coded it for clarity.

I asked you to prove that Jesus DIDN'T teach that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Don't you know WHEN one receives eternal life? It's WHEN one believes, as John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 plainly indicates. Whosoever believes HAS (that means possesses) eternal life.

But feel free to prove the opposite, if you can.


Why do you think they were inspired by the Holy Spirit? Didn't you read the end of Revelation, about "adding to" or "taking away" from God's word?

If you accept that early church "fathers" were Holy Spirit inspired, why would you deny that my writings are inspired as well? What's the difference? Just what has been written?


He didn't come up wth it. What a joke.

What you cannot prove, is that a believer, who has been sealed IN HIM by the Spirit, as a guarantee for their inheritance as God's possession (Eph 1:13,14) can be unsealed.

That's the achilles heel in your theories and opinions.


That just shows that they rejected the truth of Eph 1;13,14 and John 10:28. So much for their "inspiration" by the Holy Spirit.


Why does "reward" occur 24 times in the NT? Please explain.

Why does "fellowship" occur 12 times in the NT, and 7 of those verses refer to Christ or the Holy Spirit? Please explain.

1. Here's the difference between you and the ECF...
Did You ever speak to John the Apostle?

2. Who Did discover the idea of eternal security?
Clue: perseverance of the saints.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Why do you persist in believing that one of Jesus' sheep can become "NOT one of His sheep"? What Scripture says this? None.

Your opinions show that you either don't believe or don't understand Eph 1:13,14.

Which do you think it is?"

Why do YOU persist in believing this cannot happen?

Why didn't you answer my question?

And why don't you believe or understand Eph 1;13,14? It's certainly clear enough.

I've listed enough scripture...

The issue isn't about "listing Scripture". The issue is about giving EVIDENCE from Scripture that plainly says salvation can be lost, or that a believer can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit.

Don't you believe what Jesus said about the coming Holy Spirit, who would be with us FOREVER? John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Or, maybe you just don't believe that the Father always gives His Son what He asks for.

I've listed statements from those who either knew Jesus or someone who knew those that learned from the Apostles.

And I quote the actual words of Jesus that you don't like or believe. Or understand.

You, OTOH, prefer to believe Mr. John Calvin.

I believe what Jesus says. I have no use for Calvin. I'm neither reformed or Arminian.

I prefer to believe the bible.

Not according to your opinions, and flat-out rejection of Eph 1;13,14.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I thought you knew about exegesis...

Obviously a lot more than you.

You don't take ONE verse or even more, that go against the general idea given in scripture. Vague verses do NOT take precedence over clear verses.

This is bogus. You haven't shown that I've done this. Your "claim" is just that, nothing more. Without any evidence, your argument falls apart.

What does sealed mean? We can be sealed with the Holy Spirit...

It means to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. What do you mean by "we CAN be sealed..."? Every believer IS sealed, according to Eph 1:13,14.

We can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit due to all the verses I've listed above which prove eternal security is NOT correct or biblical.

Nonsense. Not ANY of your list says that a believer can be "unsealed", so quit making such a FALSE claim.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit IN HIM..as it states.

Yes, it does say that.

If we are NOT IN HIM...we are no longer sealed.

It appears you have ignored the word "pledge". Some translations say "guarantee". Why do you ignore such an important word?

Your unsubstantiated opinion is that this sealing ministry of the Spirit can be lost, yet there are NO verses that say that. So quit saying it.

The Holy Spirit is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a VIEW to our redemption.

It's a guarantee, which is what a pledge means.

pledge
/plej/
noun
1.a solemn promise or undertaking: "the conference ended with a joint pledge to limit pollution"synonyms:promise, undertaking, vow, word, word of honor, ... more
2.a thing that is given as security for the fulfillment of a contract or the payment of a debt and is liable to forfeiture in the event of failure.synonyms:surety, bond, security, collateral, guarantee, ... more[/QUOTE]
Do you even know what a "solemn promise" means?

Does God always keep His promises, or only sometimes?

Give me a break.

And why do you accept the word BELIEVED above as meaning that one is saved due to belief...

Oh, just because of these verses:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But feel free to ignore or reject all these verses.

When you DO NOT accept that the word BELIEVE in Luke 8:13 AND USED BY JESUS HIMSELF,,,does NOT mean that the person was saved FOR A WHILE?

No, there is NO SANE way to argue that Jesus meant that. The second soil "believed for a while". Why assume anything more than that?

Jesus taught whoever believes possesses eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47). And those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

But you clearly don't believe that.

Could you explain that please?

Just did.

Many inconsistencies with the OSAS crowd.

So, show me some. I don't believe your claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Many believers have and will die physically the "sin unto death" (1 John 5:16) for disobedience. The Bible has many examples: 1 Cor 5:5, 10, 11:30, Acts 5."

What do you mean?
Those who do not obey will die?
What is the sin unto death? You know?
Not every theologian will state that he's sure what this means.
There are differing opinions.

OK, so just ignore all the evidence for it.

The verses speak for themselves. I suggest you read them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree 100% with what you've posted...

What I don't know, and am not sure anybody really knows, is...
What is the sin unto death?
(FreeGrace2 brought it up)
1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leadingto death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

I gave verses as examples. Please read them and quit guessing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know someone who reads and speaks and taught Koine Greek, which just means simple Greek.

He won't read any bible not in the original language. He reads the O.T. in Hebrew and the N.T. in Greek.

I DO admire these persons - I wish I could do this. But I also believe the translations we have tell us all we need to know.
The person I'm telling you about does NOT believe in eternal security.

A lot of people don't believe or understand Eph 1:13,14 and John 10:28.

Sad.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But you've got no evidence from Scripture.

Why do people who don't trust Jesus always say this ? ? ? It is soooo curious !

 

[GodsGrace101]

A lot of people don't believe or understand Eph 1:13,14 and John 10:28.

Sad.

Wonder why??

You skipped no. 588.
Can't handle it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

1. Here's the difference between you and the ECF...
Did You ever speak to John the Apostle?

Please explain what ECF means. I googled it and came up with all kinds of non theological stuff.

And what the big deal with speaking to John? No one from the ECF today has either. So what?

2. Who Did discover the idea of eternal security?
Clue: perseverance of the saints.

Eternal security wasn't "discovered". It was taught, and quite clearly in the Bible.

Again, you have FAILED to show that any verse teaches that believers can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit and lose salvation. Period.

I've proved the opposite from Scripture. Period.

btw, "perseverance of the saints" isn't taught in Scripture. Just one of the reasons that I'm not reformed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1. Here's the difference between you and the ECF...
Did You ever speak to John the Apostle?

2. Who Did discover the idea of eternal security?
Clue: perseverance of the saints.

Did freegrace ever say who (besides scripture they claim) taught them
or who did they learn from
the 'doctrine of eternal security' ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But you've got no evidence from Scripture.

Why do people who don't trust Jesus always say this ? ? ? It is soooo curious !

I thnk you've confused me with those who either don't believe or understand Eph 1:13,14 and John 10:28.

Such people think a believer can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit and that recipients of eternal life can perish.

Which is exactly opposite of what Scripture says.

So don't confuse me with those who don't trust Jesus. I do trust Him. Completely.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did freegrace ever say who (besides scripture they claim) taught them
or who did they learn from
the 'doctrine of eternal security' ?

I learned the doctrine from Jesus, Paul, John the apostle, Peter.

Is that enough, or do I need to list more?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Please explain what ECF means. I googled it and came up with all kinds of non theological stuff.

And what the big deal with speaking to John? No one from the ECF today has either. So what?


Eternal security wasn't "discovered". It was taught, and quite clearly in the Bible.

Again, you have FAILED to show that any verse teaches that believers can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit and lose salvation. Period.

I've proved the opposite from Scripture. Period.

btw, "perseverance of the saints" isn't taught in Scripture. Just one of the reasons that I'm not reformed.

Early Church Fathers.
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of John the Apostle.

Perseverance of the saints, eternal security and OSAS all come from p. of the saints.
John Calvin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wonder why??

You skipped no. 588.
Can't handle it?

See posst #595.

I don't ignore or skip posts to me.