Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[FreeGrace2]

BNR32FAN said: ↑
Are you suggesting that a lost sheep does not need to repent?

1 John 1:9.

When a believer, who can never, no not ever perish,grieves or quenches the forever indwelling Spirit, they name and site their sins to God to get back into fellowship With Christ.

Gr8Grace, it seems this principle has been lost on our generation, and maybe even the past several generations. How sad.

It seems our generation of evangelicals have no idea what grieving, quenching the Spirit looks, like, much less, being filled and walking by means of the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.

Can you provide ANY verse that uses the sheep metaphor regarding "actual people" that has a sheep becoming a goat?

Because we have a verse in Matt about angels separating the sheep from the goats, indicating a separation between saved and unsaved people.

Now, if there are no such verses about sheep becoming goats, why persist in using the sheep metaphor, when there aren't any examples that support your contention?

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.

We know that this is merely an opinion, and there are no verses in the Bible that back up your opinion. So why believe a mere opinion?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
When we as believers become lost(out of fellowship with the Lord) and rebound(1 John 1:9)

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9 doesn't apply to you, because you don't believe it.

You believe that a born again Christian doesn't need to confess their sin, because all their sins, past present and future are forgiven the moment they believe.

It is sheer arrogance to claim what anyone else believes, esp when that other person has been crystal clear about what he believes about that verse.

The key to understanding 1 John 1 is "fellowship", mentioned 4 times. It's those who refuse to accept the principle of fellowship (like yourself) who DON'T BELIEVE the verse.

Your demonic doctrine will be your fate on that Day.

Actively opposing what Jesus teaches is demonic.

 

[FreeGrace2]

JLB777 said: ↑
Please quote John 10:28 for us.

I see you can't answer a simple question. LOL.

Really? Just how dishonest are you trying to be?

This was my response to your request:
"I'll do ya one better. I'll even color code it for all to see what Jesus was teaching about the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words tell us the CAUSE of possessing eternal life.
The blue words tell us the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

Now, please attempt to prove that Jesus wasn't teaching about the CAUSEand EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The color coding makes it extremely easy to follow exactly what Jesus taught about possessing eternal life.

ball.in.your.court."

So, clearly you dropped the ball. I did exactly what you requested, and went even further. I color coded the verse to prove that Jesus was teaching about the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

And you FAILED to respond to my request:
"Now, please attempt to prove that Jesus wasn't teaching about the CAUSEand EFFECT of possessing eternal life."

You didn't comply because you can't.

Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and become lost, saved or unsaved?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Simple yes or no answer will suffice.

The problem with your questions are that they begin with a false premise. They are unanswerable, just as my question to you, to illustrate just how bogus your questions are.

I know you won't ever answer my questions. So why expect me to answer your bogus questions?

What you need to do is find just one verse that describes a sheep becoming a goat, since you love sheep metaphors and the Bible speaks of sheep and goats are separated at the end of the age.

So, IF any saved person (believer, sheep) can become unsaved, wouldn't there be a verse to indicate a sheep becoming a goat?

Of course there would.

So, please show me. Or stop with the sheep metaphors, since there aren't any that support your opinions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Anybody?


Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved, just or unjust, sinner or saint?



JLB

Please show us any verse that shows a sheep (saved) becoming a goat (unsaved).

That's how to prove your theories.

If you're unfamiliar with Scripture, then this is for "anybody" to answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok but the determining factor is the person must come back to Christ. The person cannot be in Christ at one time then turn away from Him and still be saved without repenting and turning back to Christ.

Except the 'conditions' that you claim here are NOT found in Scripture.

In fact, Eph 1:13,14 clearly states that being sealed IN HIM is a guarantee of our inheritance as God's possession.

And John 10:28 is equally clear: recipients of eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish.

So, why don't you believe these 3 verses?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved, just or unjust, sinner or saint?
JLB

Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish in John 10:28.

Why don't you believe what Jesus taught?

 

[Dan the deacon]

Can you provide ANY verse that uses the sheep metaphor regarding "actual people" that has a sheep becoming a goat?

Because we have a verse in Matt about angels separating the sheep from the goats, indicating a separation between saved and unsaved people.

Now, if there are no such verses about sheep becoming goats, why persist in using the sheep metaphor, when there aren't any examples that support your contention?


We know that this is merely an opinion, and there are no verses in the Bible that back up your opinion. So why believe a mere opinion?

We are not actually sheep or goats. These are metaphors. We are human. These metaphors are used to explain how God will see us at the judgement . How we are seen now may not be how we are seen later.
Saying we believe in Christ is mere words passing over our tongue whick God calls evil.
I could understand the OSAS idea except for reading the Epistle of John. John writes words that should concern every believer. He is not as forgiving in his penning these letters.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, a sinner or saint, saved or unsaved, just or unjust?

JLB

Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish in John 10:28.

Why don't you believe what Jesus taught?

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are not actually sheep or goats. These are metaphors. We are human. These metaphors are used to explain how God will see us at the judgement . How we are seen now may not be how we are seen later.
Saying we believe in Christ is mere words passing over our tongue whick God calls evil.
I could understand the OSAS idea except for reading the Epistle of John. John writes words that should concern every believer. He is not as forgiving in his penning these letters.

I know that. But JLB loves the sheep metaphor and about being lost and found. So I challenge him to provide even 1 verse where sheep become goats, since he believes that a saved person can become unsaved.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi there, GG101.

It amazes me how some are so resistant to knowing what the original language actually says.

Actually, not so much. But it does take knowledge to know what the original writers actually meant by what they wrote.

Why should it amaze you? How many of us here even KNOW the original language? Anyway, what's to know? The ideas all come through...and we're not theologians trying to grab every last little nuance which only theologians should be interested in.

Hermeneustics show us how to tell what the writers meant.
They were writing in the first century, not in the 21st century.
THAT is important to understand. Actually, I think they did a pretty good job back then to share the message of the gospel.
When I have any doubt, I just check out what Jesus said.

I do believe HE is the expert in the gospel story.

Strange, everywhere I go, you're there!
You're on EVERY forum???

 

[GodsGrace101]

prove it

Prove what?
That two posters have their testimony about how they were saved and then abandoned God and then came back?
YOU also read them...have you forgotten already??
One was Nancy, can't remember the other one right now.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Prove what?
That two posters have their testimony about how they were saved and then abandoned God and then came back?
YOU also read them...have you forgotten already??
One was Nancy, can't remember the other one right now.

What matters is are we in Christ in the end? As long as a person ends up in Christ before the end they will be saved.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Is a sheep who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved?

JLB

A sheep that wanders away is in danger:
1. Of becoming lost and dying of hunger and thirst.
2. Of falling and getting mortally hurt.
3. Of being killed by a wolf.

If WE become lost, we can die of hunger. Jesus said that HE is the bread of life, without Him we will die of hunger.
John 6:33-35
33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

We can fall away from God. When we do, we always get hurt, one way or another. God gave us His commandments to keep us safe.
Mathew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. "

We can die because of an unbelieving heart.
Hebrews 3:12-14
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

 

[GodsGrace101]

Fran, Most of our popular translations do a fine Job.

Take John 10:28 for example. Most of our translations do a good job at translating it. And most 3rd graders can understand it......but when the false teachers come in and say, believers can perish. We have the original language to go back to further substantiate that believers will NEVER perish.

Our translations say NEVER PERISH. But when the false teachers come along and add doubt .........The original language actually shows us that 'never perish' is in the double negative. Never, not ever perish. So the original language will substantiate what the translators got right, and will prove wrong what the translators got wrong.

Take the KJV for example. In Rom 8:1. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.PERIOD. The original language will show us that the KJV ADDED the rest of that verse.


Study to show yourself approved. And that includes the history at the time of writing and the original language. No translator was inspired.

You know GR8, the idea of eternal security was not present when the gospels and letters were written. If it was, the writers would have been much more careful in their wording.
It's only recently that this idea of eternal security has come about.

Let's take John 10:28, for example:
28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Did Jesus ever lie? No. So how do we get eternal security from the above? Because Jesus said that He gives eternal life to THEM and THEY will never perish. This is true of course.

So who are the THEM and the THEY?

HIS SHEEP.

Of course, Jesus' sheep will NEVER PERISH! Jesus is the life,,,,if we are IN JESUS we have eternal life, but if we are NOT in Jesus, we do not have eternal life.

We must make sure to be Jesus' sheep at the time of our death or we will not be saved.

John 10:26-20
26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

verse 26: Those who do not believe are not of Jesus' sheep.
It doesn't matter if we don't believe BEFORE being saved or AFTER being saved....if there is no belief, we are NOT one of Jesus' sheep.

Verse 27: The saved HEAR Jesus' voice, they KNOW Jesus and they FOLLOW Him. If one abandons God do you suppose they still hear the voice of Jesus?

Verse 28: Jesus gives eternal life to THEM....His sheep.
If a person is NOT one of His sheep, he does not have eternal life.

Verse 29: God has given the saved to Christ by His salvation economy and to those that choose to be saved by following Jesus, through whom salvation comes. Nothing can take a saved person away from God...except that person himself.

Verse 30: Jesus and God share the same nature.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Hi there, GG101.

It amazes me how some are so resistant to knowing what the original language actually says."

Why should it amaze you?

Because it's the original language that was inspired. Not any of the many translations.

How many of us here even KNOW the original language?

Irrelevant because we have lexicons to KNOW what the original word means.

Anyway, what's to know?

Really? Just what the Holy Spirit actually inspired the writers to write.

The ideas all come through...and we're not theologians trying to grab every last little nuance which only theologians should be interested in.

No, there are many who fail to properly exegete and come up with wildly unbiblical ideas.

Hermeneustics show us how to tell what the writers meant.

From the original languages.

They were writing in the first century, not in the 21st century.

And we have knowledge of what the 1st Century Greek meant.

THAT is important to understand.

And I do.

Actually, I think they did a pretty good job back then to share the message of the gospel.
When I have any doubt, I just check out what Jesus said.

Do you believe what He said about recipients in Johbn 10:28?

I do believe HE is the expert in the gospel story.

So do I.

Strange, everywhere I go, you're there!
You're on EVERY forum???

No. I got rather tired of the ridiculous amount of political correctness on the other site.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What matters is are we in Christ in the end?

Read Eph 1:13,14 and explain to me what "guarantee" means. That's your answer.

As long as a person ends up in Christ before the end they will be saved.

Are there any verses that specifically teach that a sealed believer can be unsealed?

No.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Pay attention!

Verse 7 does not say a lost sheep. It is a lost SINNER. The previous verses are talking about lost sheep(out of fellowship, saved right now, having eternal life, never perishing SHEEP.)

A lost sheep names and sites their sins to God.1 John 1:9(I found MY sheep.) Heaven rejoices!

In the same way heaven rejoices when a lost sinner BELIEVES on the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 16:31,John 3:16.

I believe you're correct.
I do think verse 7 (Luke 15:7) is an interesting verse, however. It sounds like Jesus is saying that people can be righteous on their own , and if they are, no repentance is necessary.

Perhaps the lost sheep could mean both...
One that is part of the flock, then becomes lost, and then becomes saved again...
Or one that is lost and found so that there is joy in heaven.

It does seem that the first part of 7 is the first part of above, and the second part, is the second part of my idea above.

I'm not sure IN THE SAME WAY is very important in this case...

 

[FreeGrace2]

We can die because of an unbelieving heart.

We can die of a heart attack.

But those who have (aorist tense) believed, ARE sealed IN HIM with the Spirit (Eph 1:13) and are given eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 10:28, 1 John 5:13) and shall never, no, not ever, perish (John 10:28).

There are no conditions for those who have been given eternal life to meet in order to never perish. None. I know that seems to bother a whole lot of people.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Did they have a certified “saved card” they turned in?

We know this story RLH
We can't know who's saved and who's not saved.
We can only go by what they tell us.
To me, it sounded like they were both saved.
Anyway, scripture is plain and simple in stating we are to guard our salvation.

1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

If we fall away from the faith, it means we no longer have faith.

If it's faith that saves us and we no longer have faith,,,we can no longer be saved.