Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[BABerean2]

We begin to hear about the Beast/AC taking control over the World only in Revelation 13 ...So the Rider on the White Horse conquering with a bow but no arrows mentioned in Revelation 6:1-2 at the Opening of the First Seal cannot be the Beast/AC of Revelation 13.

Why did you skip over the verses found below?

Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Was it because the rest of the passage kills your doctrine?

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[keras]

The first six seals - the arrival of the antichrist to the return of Jesus.

This idea is nonsense. From you and BaB.
Revelation 6:1-8 describes 4 different 'beasts' or riders, who preform different tasks.
That they commenced those tasks in the first century, is obvious and proved by the Fifth Seal, where the souls of the martyrs, since Stephen, have been kept under the heavenly Altar.

I suppose that it will take the surprise of the Sixth Seal, as that worldwide disaster strikes, for you and most people to realize the truth of Bible prophecy.

 

[Riberra]

Why did you skip over the verses found below?

When you got the First Seal wrong into thinking that the Rider of the WHITE HORSE [Revelation 6:1-2] is about the antichrist ....and that the 3 others riders are about the antichrist, you got your whole End Time Eschatology wrong ..into thinking that Seal 1 to Seal 5 is about the 42 months reign of the beast.

The COLOR WHITE IN THE BIBLE REPRESENT Righteousness and in no time it is associated with evil.
Revelation 6:1-2
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come.

2 And I saw, and behold, a WHITE horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.

The Rider on the White Horse have a BOW but NO ARROWS.
The conquest is a spiritual conquest ....This is the Gospel of Jesus being preached upon [CONQUERING] the whole Earth.



Keras in post 1522 got the right sequence .... The 6th seal worldwide disaster will announce the end of the Recreation time ....and the beginning of the Tribulation time...with the urgency to deal the 144,000 Revelation 7 Before the beginning of the Trumpets plagues Revelation 8

The 42 months reign of the beast is mentioned to happen in Revelation 13 ...

 

[BABerean2]

When you got the First Seal wrong into thinking that the Rider of the WHITE HORSE [Revelation 6:1-2] is about the antichrist ....and that the 3 others riders are about the antichrist, you got your whole End Time Eschatology wrong ..into thinking that Seal 1 to Seal 5 is about the 42 months reign of the beast.

Actually I never identified the rider on the white horse. (See post # 1503)
I merely asked a question about who conquers in the Book of Revelation.
You are the one who made that assumption.

You are the one ignoring most of the rest of the passage to make your doctrine work.


Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
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[Riberra]

Actually I never identified the rider on the white horse. (See post # 1503)

I merely asked a question about who conquers in the Book of Revelation.

You are the one who made that assumption.

You are the one ignoring most of the rest of the passage to make your doctrine work.

You have never answered when i have asked you to give us his identity....

Based on your interpretation the four riders Revelation 6:1-8 represent the actions of the Antichrist ...is that right ?


If you have any doubt about the identity of the Rider of The White Horse mentioned in Revelation 6:1-2...

Can you tell us what is the color of the horse upon wich Jesus will return mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21 ?
Revelation 19:11
11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a WHITE HORSE, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war.

 

[Douggg]

This idea is nonsense. From you and BaB.
Revelation 6:1-8 describes 4 different 'beasts' or riders

It doesn't say "beasts". More of your nonesense.

That they commenced those tasks in the first century

more nonsesne from you. Revelation 6-19 is about events that take place during the last 7 years of Daniel 9:27, which has Jesus being crucified at the end of the 69 week; then the gap 40 years until the people of the prince who shall come destroys the city and temple in 70 AD; then the gap to the end times in which Israel as become a nation again in Ezekiel 38:8 and the 7 years in Ezekiel 39.

The last 7 years begin when the rider on the white horse becomes the Antichrist and confirms the covenant for 7 years which is right in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. But because you have signed on to the church has become Israel theology - you have put a padlock on the bible, so you can't understand.

That they commenced those tasks in the first century, is obvious and proved by the Fifth Seal, where the souls of the martyrs, since Stephen, have been kept under the heavenly Altar.

more nonsense from you. Revelation, the seals, are not the random periods of regional peace, wars, famine, pestilences, plagues, that have come and gone in no specific order. Revelation the seals follow the order that is going to take place in the last 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

The COLOR WHITE IN THE BIBLE REPRESENT Righteousness and in no time it is associated with evil.

like leporsy. ... I guess you are saying. Leviticus 13:2-3.

or maybe this one....

Matthew 23:27 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

 

[BABerean2]

You have never answered when i have asked you to give us his identity....

Based on your interpretation the four riders Revelation 6:1-8 represent the actions of the Antichrist ...is that right ?


If you have any doubt about the identity of the Rider of The White Horse mentioned in Revelation 6:1-2...

Can you tell us what is the color of the horse upon wich Jesus will return mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21 ?
Revelation 19:11
11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a WHITE HORSE, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war.

Many good, honest Christians have interpreted the first rider as Christ, and others interpret it as a counterfeit to Christ.

I am not sure of either one.

However, based on the other riders, I tend to think it is not Christ.
Dr. Sam Storms speaks on this topic starting at about 16 minutes into the video below.

http://www.bridgewaychurch.com/sermons/sermon/2017-09-03/the-four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypse

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[Riberra]

like leporsy. ... I guess you are saying. Leviticus 13:2-3.

or maybe this one....

Matthew 23:27 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

Like
Revelation 19:7-8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and WHITE: for the fine linen clean and WHITE is the righteousness of saints.

Like Revelation 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a WHITE HORSE; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Douggg can you tell what is the color of the horse upon which Jesus return mentioned in Revelation 19:11 ?

 

[Douggg]

Douggg can you tell what is the color of the horse upon which Jesus return mentioned in Revelation 19:11 ?

White horse because Jesus is the messiah.

 

[Riberra]

Many good, honest Christians have interpreted the first rider as Christ, and others interpret it as a counterfeit to Christ.

I am not sure of either one.

However, based on the other riders, I tend to think it is not Christ.
Dr. Sam Storms speaks on this topic starting at about 16 minutes into the video below.

http://www.bridgewaychurch.com/sermons/sermon/2017-09-03/the-four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypse

The four riders on horses represent something determined to have course of action TO RUN UPON the EARTH side by side. We can determine by their associated events that they are currently still running upon the Earth as well that the 5Th Seal Revelation 6:1-11….since that Jesus have ascended in Heaven during the First Century.
-These events still running upon the Earth are The Gospel preached upon [CONQUERING] the Whole Earth [Rider of the WHITE HORSE]
-The Wars [Rider of the Red Horse] ….
-Famines [Rider of the Black Horse] .
-WW1 and WW2 who have afflicted 1/4 of the surface of the Earth MAJOR EVENT OF THE 20 TH CENTURY [Rider of the Pale Horse] ....

-And still in action Christians Martyrs[5Th Seal] ….

---The 6Th Seal have obviously bot been opened yet...only in John VISION we have a glimpse of what will happen at the opening of the 6Th Seal.

 

[Riberra]

White horse because Jesus is the messiah.

Yes ....Thus the rider of the White Horse mentioned at the opening of the First Seal [Revelation 6:1-2] represent the Conquest of the Gospel that Jesus Preached ..see post 1531 for details.

 

[Douggg]

Yes ....Thus the rider of the White Horse mentioned at the opening of the First Seal [Revelation 6:1-2] represent the Conquest of the Gospel that Jesus Preached ..see post 1531 for details.

your thus draws the wrong conclusion.

The events in seals follow a specific order. The are not the random wars, pesitilences, famines, martyrdoms, taking place in random order, coming and going since the first century.

The seals are in specific order as the 7 years take place.

... the rider on the white horse in the first seal is the Antichrist, made so by being anointed the King of Israel by who? The false prophet. Why do you think the person is called the false prophet? Because he will claim to speak for God, but really speaks for Satan.

 

[Riberra]

your thus draws the wrong conclusion.

The events in seals follow a specific order. The are not the random wars, pesitilences, famines, martyrdoms, taking place in random order, coming and going since the first century.

The seals are in specific order as the 7 years take place.

... the rider on the white horse in the first seal is the Antichrist, made so by being anointed the King of Israel by who? The false prophet. Why do you think the person is called the false prophet? Because he will claim to speak for God, but really speaks for Satan.

The 42 months Reign of the Beast is mentioned to happen in Revelation 13 ....it have NOTHING to do with the Seals because the 42 Months Reign of the Beast is the THIRD WOE associated with the 7 TH TRUMPET.

Revelation 11:14-15
14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become [the kingdom] of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Douggg]

The 42 months Reign of the Beast is mentioned to happen in Revelation 13 ....it have NOTHING to do with the Seals because the 42 Months Reign of the Beast is the THIRD WOE associated with the 7 TH TRUMPET.

The seals are the 7 years from the arrival of the Antichrist to the return of Jesus at the end of 7 years.

Then the visions begin in Chapter 7 laying out what takes place during the seals and proceeds through the rest of Revelation.

The third woe is Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth, when the 7th trumpet sounds. There is a time, times, half times left to Satan and his kingdom once he is cast down.

The 42 month reign of the beast is not called a woe in Revelation, but it does contain the near, not exact, equivalent - the time, times, half time Satan will have left. Which Satan cast down to the earth is called a woe.

 

[Riberra]

The seals are the 7 years from the arrival of the Antichrist to the return of Jesus at the end of 7 years.

Then the visions begin in Chapter 7 laying out what takes place during the seals and proceeds through the rest of Revelation.

The third woe is Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth, when the 7th trumpet sounds. There is a time, times, half times left to Satan and his kingdom once he is cast down.

The 42 month reign of the beast is not called a woe in Revelation, but it does contain the near, not exact, equivalent - the time, times, half time Satan will have left. Which Satan cast down to the earth is called a woe.

That is Satan [The Dragon] who will give his power and authority to the Beast/AC Revelation 13:1-11, so the 42 Months Reign of The Beast is tied to Satan and his angels being cast out of Heaven...both refers to the 42 months of time [3 1/2 years] allowed to the THIRD WOE when the Christians will be overcome by Satan and The Beast [if they refuse to take the Mark they will be beheaded ,if they take the mark they will be damned Revelation 14:9-13] ...that will precede the Coming Of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

That is Satan [The Dragon] who will give his power and authority to the Beast/AC Revelation 13:1-11, so the 42 Months Reign of The Beast is tied to Satan and his angels being cast out of Heaven...both refers to the 42 months of time allowed to the THIRD WOE when the Christians will be overcome by Satan and The Beast [if they refuse to take the Mark they will be beheaded ,if they take the mark they will be damned] ...that will precede the Coming Of Jesus.

Not only what you said.... but also that Satan will incarnate the image to make it come alive, and thus in essence be worshiped when people worship the image. Fulfilling Revelation 13:4.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[Riberra]

Not only what you said.... but also that Satan will incarnate the image to make it come alive, and thus in essence be worshiped when people worship the image. Fulfilling Revelation 13:4.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

That is right: Satan and the Beast/AC and the False Prophet will be physically present during the whole 42 months [3 1/2 years]reign of the Beast that will spend from Revelation 13 through Revelation 18....a very sad time for the Christians who will have the misfortune to be alive on the Earth during those times [42 months/ 3 1/2 years] who will precede the Coming of Jesus in Glory to free us.

 

[keras]

That is right: Satan and the Beast/AC and the False Prophet will be physically present during the whole 42 months [3 1/2 years]reign of the Beast that will spend from Revelation 13 through Revelation 18....a very sad time for the Christians who will have the misfortune to be alive on the Earth during those times [42 months/ 3 1/2 years] who will precede the Coming of Jesus in Glory to free us.

It seems we all agree on this. The last 3 1/2 years could be a very tough time for Christians.
The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, directed at those who worship the 'beast', will happen during this period. But, some will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14

This means that all the Seals are over before this.
So when did they happen? No one has properly refuted the obvious fact of the first five Seals being opened at Jesus' Ascent to heaven.
The Sixth Seal awaits fulfilment at God's Appointed Day, triggered by an attack onto Israel by the Islamists. As described in Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Revelation 6:12-17
Then John sees God's people, every faithful Christian gathered in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9-14 They called upon the Lord as disaster struck the earth and He protects them. Isaiah 43:2, Zephaniah 2:3, 1 Corinthians 10:13

 

[Riberra]

It seems we all agree on this. The last 3 1/2 years could be a very tough time for Christians.
The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, directed at those who worship the 'beast', will happen during this period.

6 of the 7 Trumpets plagues will happen BEFORE THE 42 Months Reign of The Beast .... The 7 Th Trumpet being the events [of the THIRD WOE] related to the 42 Months Reign of The Beast [Revelation 13].
Revelation 11:14-15
14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become [the kingdom] of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Jesus is certainly not the Third Woe.. but the decision of Jesus to cast Satan and his angels out of Heaven [Revelation 12:7-17] who will give power to the Beast to continue during 42 months Revelation 13 is the Third Woe.

But, some will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14

Are you sure that this is not talking about a group of Jews living in Jerusalem ... at the End of the Second Woe [6TH TRUMPET EVENTS].... when the Beast who ascendeth out of the pit will kill the two witnesses...and three days after they will be resurrected and they will ascend to Heaven ,in the same hour there will be an Earthquake who will kill 7,000 jews and the REMNANT WERE AFRAID AND GIVE GLORY TO THE GOD OF HEAVEN ....Revelation 11:11-14

This means that all the Seals are over before this.

Of course Revelation 13 is part of the 7 TH TRUMPET Events called the Third Woe.

So when did they happen? No one has properly refuted the obvious fact of the first five Seals being opened at Jesus' Ascent to heaven.

Bab2 and Douggg obvioulsy does not have eyes to see that....

The Sixth Seal awaits fulfilment at God's Appointed Day, triggered by an attack onto Israel by the Islamists. As described in Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Revelation 6:12-17

Whatever will happen at the 6Th Seal will put a end to the recreation time...and will set the scene for the beginning of The tribulation ...Thus the urgency to Seal the 144,000 for protection Revelation 7 ,before the 7 Trumpets Plagues Revelation 8.

Then John sees God's people, every faithful Christian gathered in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9-14 They called upon the Lord as disaster struck the earth and He protects them. Isaiah 43:2, Zephaniah 2:3, 1 Corinthians 10:13

Outside of the 144,000 and the group of Jews living in Jerusalem who will give glory to God near the End of the second woe Revelation 11:11-14
11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.

....no other people will receive any protection. THE CHRISTIANS WHO WILL HAVE THE MISFORTUNE TO BE ALIVE DURING THE 42 MONTHS REIGN OF THE BEAST WILL BE OVERCOME BY THE BEAST -BY TWO WAYS- IF THEY REFUSE TO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND REFUSE TO TAKE THE MARK THEY WILL BE BEHEADED--- IF THEY TAKE THE MARK THEY WILL BE DAMNED.

WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO THE WRATH OF GOD ...BUT SATAN AND THE BEAST WILL BE ALLOWED TO OVERCOME THE CHRISTIANS Revelation 12:17 Revelation 13:6-7.

Remember that the WRATH OF GOD WILL BE POURED OUT IN THE 7 VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD [Revelation 16] UPON THOSE WHO WILL HAVE TAKEN THE MARK AND WORSHIPED THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE.