What "Believers" Refuse to Believe (Part 1)

[Chinchilla]

Is the Prodigal Son not a picture of the following ...

1 Corinthians 3

12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved — even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Bad translation imo .
Jesus said if you give a cup of water to somebody you won't lose your reward , you don't need to make everything perfect to receive a reward .

For good deeds you get gold , precious stones
For bad you get wood , hay

Then the fire is testing everything , what's left you can carry away , the wood and hay will be burned , gold does not burn .

 

[A_Thinker]

Jesus said if you give a cup of water to somebody you won't lose your reward , you don't need to make everything perfect to receive a reward .

I agree ...

 

[BNR32FAN]

No we don't know that.

Believers dont believe it, because it isnt true!
You cannot cherrypick prooftext verses and draw any valid conclusion.

Many examples could be chosen to disagree....so just choose a couple

Sheep and goats Mat 25:31-46 makes it quite clear what happens without works of charity.
That is not "salvation by works" or any of the "usual" misrepresentations, because by themselves no amount of works are enough. But it is quite clear they are necessary, and every day you have a new choice - do what is asked or not.

Calling upon his name is not enough. As stated in Mat 7:21 - "not all who say lord lord " ..."but those who do the will of my father"

Indeed the only place the bible uses the word "faith alone" and that is to say faith is not enough without works!

Indeed there are many things you are told to do, take a valid eucharist - in John 6:52 on without which "our Lord says you have no life in you" and if you do "he will raise you up at the last day".

And we know from those taught by even apostle John himslef, exactly what that means, because of their writings. A eucharist of the "real flesh" only valid if performed by a bishop in succession or his appointee.

So when the just judge asks you why you did not do what he asked, or believe what he said...you will struggle for an answer, or why he should not do, what he said he would in sheep and goats.

So the reason we do not believe what you said, is because scripture, tradition and authoirty of the church, tells us it is not true!

I’m curious where it is stated that the Eucharist must be performed by a bishop?

 

[Ron Gurley]

1. Define by reference to the Bible WHICH JUDGMENT(S) is/are being referred to:

a. JUDGMENT of the NATIONS? ...Psalm 9:19 ; Matthew 25: 31-36 f

b. JUDGMENT of the Believers' Works?...1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10

c. The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT...sentencing of unbelievers...Revelation 20: 11-15 (NASB)

d. BELIEVING SURVIVORS of the GREAT TRIBULATION...Revelation 7: 9-17

e. JUDGMENT of Fallen Spirits: Revelation 20: 1-10

f. JUDGMENT of the Nation Israel....the Major Prophets + Matthew 19:27-31 (NASB)

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word,
and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and
does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1. Define by reference to the Bible WHICH JUDGMENT(S) is/are being referred to:

a. JUDGMENT of the NATIONS? ...Psalm 9:19 ; Matthew 25: 31-36 f

b. JUDGMENT of the Believers' Works?...1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10

c. The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT...sentencing of unbelievers...Revelation 20: 11-15 (NASB)

d. BELIEVING SURVIVORS of the GREAT TRIBULATION...Revelation 7: 9-17

e. JUDGMENT of Fallen Spirits: Revelation 20: 1-10

f. JUDGMENT of the Nation Israel....the Major Prophets + Matthew 19:27-31 (NASB)

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word,
and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and
does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life.

There are two stipulations in John 5:24 brother to hearth and believe. The word heareth is translated from the Greek word akouo


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

heareth


G191


Lemma:

ἀκούω


Transliteration:

akoúō


Pronounce:

ak-oo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf

2) to hear b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

3) to hear something a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence b) to get by hearing learn c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher e) to comprehend, to understand

So believing is not the only requirement mentioned in John 5:24.

 

[TogetherInHim]

Our inheritance is the Kingdom of God, which we receive through faith in Jesus Christ to salvation.

Your confusing issues of salvation and discipleship. Salvation is based on grace and its free. Discipleship is based on eternal rewards and it's costly...

God tells us who we are first, then He tells us what to do.. there is a progression and it's a lifetime of growing in Christ Jesus.

But our salvation, our inheritance, in that we can be sure just as the thief on the cross was sure.

Discipleship and our desire to be good disciples of Christ and our walk in fellowship with Christ is merely the response to what was freely given..and while it's a response all who are saved have, where we are on that path affects only our reward.. otherwise we cannot say salvation is freely given.

When you merge "salvation" which is the free gift of God that comes by grace through faith, with our promised "inheritance" which is also free, you will not be able to see that there are detailed conditions associated with meeting the Lord's expectations in appropriating our "inheritance".

If the Lord gives you a field, seed, water and sunlight that is all free, and instructs you to work the field, he has the expectation that you demonstrate that you understand and bring forth produce, does that mean that it wasn't really free?

If we know that the Lord expects those who receive "salvation" from our death sentence that Adam brought upon the world, and we have an "inheritance" (the "treasure" and "pearl of great price"), then we should joyfully work the field so we can please him so as to receive the reward.

Your confusing issues of salvation and discipleship. Salvation is based on grace and its free. Discipleship is based on eternal rewards and it's costly...

You are correct about confusing two issues. You are merging the two. At "salvation", we are given eternal life from our death sentence and a promise of reward, the kingdom of heaven, our "Inheritance". "Discipleship" is the Lord's expected response to his free gifts of both salvation and our inheritance.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
​

Jesus is not talking about "salvation". He is talking about those who wish to follow him into the kingdom of heaven. There is a cost of following Him into the kingdom that does not "earn" the kingdom, but demonstrates that we value "the treasure hidden in a field" and do whatever is necessary "to buy that field"...as the parable says...

Jesus continues...

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?


32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.


33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?


35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

Those that have received "salvation" will face decisions that cost them as disciples that have rewards (entrance to the kingdom of heaven) or consequences (being cast out).

 

[Ron Gurley]

"works" after salvation are judged, but ALL believers appear on the Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ. Rewards or losses do not effect salvation.

 

[Ron Gurley]

A fruitless carnal Christ-follower remains saved.

John 15
8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Disciples’ Relation to Each Other

12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

 

[Hazelelponi]

When you merge "salvation" which is the free gift of God that comes by grace through faith, with our promised "inheritance" which is also free, you will not be able to see that there are detailed conditions associated with meeting the Lord's expectations in appropriating our "inheritance".

If the Lord gives you a field, seed, water and sunlight that is all free, and instructs you to work the field, he has the expectation that you demonstrate that you understand and bring forth produce, does that mean that it wasn't really free?

If we know that the Lord expects those who receive "salvation" from our death sentence that Adam brought upon the world, and we have an "inheritance" (the "treasure" and "pearl of great price"), then we should joyfully work the field so we can please him so as to receive the reward.



You are correct about confusing two issues. You are merging the two. At "salvation", we are given eternal life from our death sentence and a promise of reward, the kingdom of heaven, our "Inheritance". "Discipleship" is the Lord's expected response to his free gifts of both salvation and our inheritance.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
​

Jesus is not talking about "salvation". He is talking about those who wish to follow him into the kingdom of heaven. There is a cost of following Him into the kingdom that does not "earn" the kingdom, but demonstrates that we value "the treasure hidden in a field" and do whatever is necessary "to buy that field"...as the parable says...

Jesus continues...

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?


32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.


33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?


35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

Those that have received "salvation" will face decisions that cost them as disciples that have rewards (entrance to the kingdom of heaven) or consequences (being cast out).

Your thoughts seem to have gotten lost and I cannot understand what point your attempting to make.

Is there a way you can make a clear point in a succinct manner so that I may understand you?

 

[BNR32FAN]

A fruitless carnal Christ-follower remains saved.

John 15
8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Disciples’ Relation to Each Other

12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

Where do you see a fruitless Christ follower here in these verses?

 

[A_Thinker]

A fruitless carnal Christ-follower remains saved.

There's really no such thing as a fruitless Christ-follower ... as it becomes our NATURE to produce fruit.

Jesus said if you give a cup of water to somebody you won't lose your reward.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A fruitless carnal Christ-follower remains saved.

John 15
8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Disciples’ Relation to Each Other

12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

Will you please answer my question in post 40?

 

[sdowney717]

There are two stipulations in John 5:24 brother to hearth and believe. The word heareth is translated from the Greek word akouo


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

heareth


G191


Lemma:

ἀκούω


Transliteration:

akoúō


Pronounce:

ak-oo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf

2) to hear b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

3) to hear something a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence b) to get by hearing learn c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher e) to comprehend, to understand

So believing is not the only requirement mentioned in John 5:24.

Yes, God must spiritually enable you to hear. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit says.

 

[bling]

How could you be a child ... and, yet, not received a child's inheritance ... unless you formally rejected it ? Sounds like a bit of "sleight of hand" to me.

Even the Prodigal Son received his inheritance ...

Like Esau you can give away your birthright.

 

[bling]

Hearing is passive. I don't believe faith comes by my doing a thing, but by God's action. It is God's action through the word of the Gospel that creates faith. That is why faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. I am a passive agent, it is God working, creating faith in me. After all this faith is "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" as St. Paul says in Ephesians 2:8.

That is why Christ called and commanded His Church to preach the Gospel and to baptize, because it is through these that God actually works to convert people to Himself, by His grace.

No, not all will ὑπήκουσαν (hypekousan, "under-hear" "hearken") to the Gospel, many will resist and reject it. But it is not our "yes" to the Gospel that is salvific, it is the very working of God Himself to create faith in us by His grace, His gift alone, which is salvific.

-CryptoLutheran

Faith is not the gift in Eph. 2:8, but the salvation which comes through faith and not works.

 

[Mountainmike]

I’m curious where it is stated that the Eucharist must be performed by a bishop?

Or his appointee.
Ignatius to smyrneans.
He/polycarp( of Smyrna) knew/ were disciples of John the apostle. If John didn't know what john6 means who does?
All the earliest fathers, Justin martyr etc were adamant about the bishops.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Or his appointee.
Ignatius to smyrneans.
He/polycarp( of Smyrna) knew/ were disciples of John the apostle. If John didn't know what john6 means who does?
All the earliest fathers, Justin martyr etc were adamant about the bishops.

Forgive me I don't know Roman Catholic church history..

So, your saying this Ignatius personally met/knew/studied under the Apostle John.. ?

 

[A_Thinker]

Like Esau you can give away your birthright.

I don't think that this left Esau without any inheritance. Essentially, he "suffered loss" of his inheritance advantage ...

 

[Hazelelponi]

There's really no such thing as a fruitless Christ-follower ... as it becomes our NATURE to produce fruit.

Jesus said if you give a cup of water to somebody you won't lose your reward.

I absolutely agree with you.

However, if I can deduce the intent of this thread correctly (Which is quite difficult I might add.. lol) is that there are some who are attaching works to us getting into heaven as if we are under law again.

To my mind, that is absolutely incorrect... what we should rather do, is teach/enable Christians to be/become fruitful in Christ as they grow in discipleship - not preach people back under law via works.

 

[sdowney717]

There's really no such thing as a fruitless Christ-follower ... as it becomes our NATURE to produce fruit.

Jesus said if you give a cup of water to somebody you won't lose your reward.

Yes, ALL God's people who are born again and live according to the Spirit, meaning they have been given life, they are alive to God, will bear good fruit. If you do not bear good fruit then you are cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10
And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Believing in Christ is a good fruit of the Spirit who is at work in you.

There are only the fruits of the Spirit versus the fruits of the flesh.