What "Believers" Refuse to Believe (Part 1)

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟37,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And I suppose the purpose of your threads is to say you've cracked this mystery?

That would make the thread about me. I am nobody.

My motivation is to share what the Lord has said that we should all see, "hidden mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" revealed in the parables.

What "Mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" do you see in the parables? Take any parable and tell me of a "mystery" that is revealed...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?


11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:


15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

I am interested in sharing what seems so obvious, but must be revealed by the Lord. Once you see it, you see it throughout the word.

Believe me when I say that I understand how hard it is to see something like this. It only matters if it is true.

There is a mountain of supporting scripture for this understanding in a study that can be read online and/or printed out. www.WhoGoesToHell.com

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

I get it, "How can these things be?" Yet, they are...
 
  • Like
Reactions: docgfd
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟931,284.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If we could just see that there are those who in a sincere, heart-felt time during their life, have heard the gospel, recognized their need, believed in their heart that Jesus died for them to give them eternal life, and accepted his free covenant offer of "salvation" from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world, been given the spirit of truth, the powerful Helper of the Holy Spirit and later in that same life...

Fall away to this...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

They will hear the "terrifying" words... "Depart from Me..."

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine.

This cannot be Jesus speaking about "salvation", other wise salvation is by works. In the first verse Jesus tells us exactly what he is speaking about, "entrance to the kingdom of heaven"!

The title of this post is astonishingly correct...

What "Believers" Refuse to Believe"...​

Please try to bring yourself to distinguish between the verses and teaching that apply to "salvation" as separate and distinctly different from those that apply to our "inheritance", entrance to the kingdom of heaven. Until we do, we will never understand the parables, and "the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" will not be revealed...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?


11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:


15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Jesus actually revealed a mystery in the next verse after saying that there are hidden mysteries...

"12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

The question is, can you see it?

Even within the paradigm you propose, FAITH IN JESUS remains the key.

You say FAITH saves us from death.

Likewise, FAITH produces the works which you say allow us to enter the kingdom.

John 15:5 “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟37,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The biggest issue here is that you're taking "Salvation" to mean Saving faith, but with the connotation of eternal damnation without saving works. Which doesn't sound very salvific.

Please try to see that there is a difference between "salvation/saving faith" and the promised "inheritance" that has entry requirements that are spelled out in the parables and teachings of Jesus.

"Salvation" is to be "saved" from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world.

"Inheritance" is the promised "kingdom of heaven" destiny that has conditions of the Lord's expectations of sons to meet for entry. Without which we are not "saved" from outer darkness.

If you, from a pure heart, read the parables and keep this in mind as you read, you will see it clearly. Then many other scriptures will come to light.

Read the study online for all of the scripture that details this. www.WhoGoesToHell.com
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟37,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Even within the paradigm you propose, FAITH IN JESUS remains key.

You say FAITH saves us from death.

Likewise, FAITH produces the works which you say allow us to enter the kingdom.

John 15:5 “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit.

Absolutely!

When we "abide in Him", the natural outcome is fruit-bearing. But we must first be grafted into the Vine (Jesus) by "salvation" (life from the death curse that Adam brought into the world) or we cannot bear fruit. Once we are grafted into the Vine, the Lord expects us to bear fruit or he will cut us off and throw us into the fire.

The warning is for those who are also "branches" that have been grafted in by accepting the blood covenant of Christ, and fail to "abide in him" producing no fruit...

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Unbelievers do not "abide in Me" nor are they a "branch" connected to the "Vine" without having entered the blood covenant of Christ. Then, and only then, is there an expectation of fruit-bearing.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: docgfd
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟931,284.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Absolutely!

When we "abide in Him", the natural outcome is fruit-bearing. But we must first be grafted into the Vine (Jesus) by "salvation" (life from the death curse that Adam brought into the world) or we cannot bear fruit. Once we are grafted into the Vine, the Lord expects us to bear fruit or he will cut us off and throw us into the fire.

The warning is for those who are also "branches" that have been grafted in by accepting the blood covenant of Christ, and fail to "abide in him" producing no fruit...

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Unbelievers do not "abide in Me" or are they a "branch" connected to the "Vine" without haveing entered the blood covenant of Christ. Then, and only then is there an expectation of fruit-bearing.

Yes ... we must continue to "Abide in Him" ...
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟37,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You seem, once more, to be quite insistent thay the Kingdom of Heaven /Kingdom of God is not heaven and/or is not the result of salvation..

So, since your insistent then show proof from scriptures that the Kingdom is a reward and not the result of salvation.

...sigh...

The kingdom of heaven "inheritance" is a reward as a direct result of "salvation", Christ's completed work on the cross.

"Salvation" is to be "saved" from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world.

"Inheritance" is the promised "kingdom of heaven" destiny that has conditions of the Lord's expectations of sons to meet for entry. Without which we are not "saved" from outer darkness.

Look at the Jews in Egypt as a foreshadow...

They were enslaved and hopelessly in bondage. God sent the plague of "death" to the world, but told his people (anyone who believed and did as instructed) to put the blood of a lamb on their doorpost and lintel. Those that did were "saved" from death. Those that did not lost their first born.

Those that did apply the blood as instructed believed God and were "saved" from death. Were they still in Egypt? Yes. They had "saving faith", but they had not yet entered the "promised land", the "inheritance" that God promised Abraham. That was still a long way off.

Were they not "saved" because they had not yet entered the promised land? No, they were "saved" and alive, and free to go along with those who were "saved".

They then went to the Holy mountain to receive the law. Before they even received the law it was broken and God killed all those who were in rebellion. Were they still "saved" from the plague of death that God sent upon Egypt and subsequently "passed over" them? Yes, but they failed to make it to their "inheritance", the promised land. The blood covenant "salvation", life from the death sentence, can never be undone. We are "saved" from "death" forever.

Then they come to the promised land, the "inheritance" that God promised Abraham. What happened?
They didn't believe that God has actually given them the promised "inheritance" and refused to fight for what was theirs...

What happened then? They were locked out permanently! It was the next generation that had faith, obeyed God and "entered the promised inheritance land".

Hebrews 4 cautions believers, using the Jews' unbelief as an example of the fact that we may fail to "enter" if we do not deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Jesus into the kingdom inheritance he promised...

4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

 
  • Like
Reactions: docgfd
Upvote 0

JojoM

Active Member
Jun 7, 2018
50
34
Madrid
✟3,559.00
Country
Saint Pierre And Miquelon
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Well, beginning with the opening line there's already a contradiction in terms: "receiving Jesus ... accepting" sounds an awful lot like a requirement to me.

In fact, that would be a work on our part.

If you are going to say "salvation doesn't require our works, except for this one work we have to do" then obviously you are not really thinking this through or you are being disingenuous.

When I was a child I remember a neighbor girl, she was only maybe 4 or 5, with water on a really hot summer day. The sign she (well, her parents more likely) put up read, "Free water for a dollar."

It's not really free if I have to pay a dollar for it now is it?

If salvation is by God's grace alone, apart from our efforts, then that must actually be the case. Otherwise what you are doing is offering free water for a dollar. Sure, maybe the water isn't a hundred dollars, or even five dollars, but it's still a dollar--and not free.

I would maintain that our salvation from God is, in fact, free, not "free". It doesn't cost a dollar, i.e. it isn't about the bare minimum of efforts, it's completely and utterly apart from our efforts. It's God's action and God's action only. Monergism.

-CryptoLutheran

Unfortunately it is very difficult to understand when someone hasn’t received the free gift.
Ok... Verse 17 says one needs to "hear" to receive. Is that a work on our part too? The preceding verse says we must also "heed" the good news...a "work" as you define it?

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

If you do not "heed" the word, engage it, embrace it, claim it and make it yours through faith (not just hearing the "sound" of the good news words as it is spoken) it is not "believed" as Isaiah sees it...

Heeding the word is a response to what has been heard, not a work to "earn" what has been offered for free.

We do not have faith until it is revealed to us. It is not our choice if someone decides to show us something and when we see it there’s no way of unseeing it anymore.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟931,284.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...sigh...

The kingdom of heaven "inheritance" is a reward as a direct result of "salvation", Christ's completed work on the cross.

I think that you will have to understand that your interpretation ... is not one of the interpretations commonly taught. It will take a while for others to even understand your point of view. It will take still longer for others to confirm your view, ... as it were, from the scriptures.

They then went to the Holy mountain to receive the law. Before they even received the law it was broken and God killed all those who were in rebellion. Were they still "saved" from the plague of death that God sent upon Egypt and subsequently "passed over" them? Yes, but they failed to make it to their "inheritance", the promised land. The blood covenant "salvation", life from the death sentence, can never be undone. We are "saved" from "death" forever.

This actually works AGAINST your premise of "once saved from death, always saved from death" ... as these Hebrews which were saved from the "death angel" ... later died before coming into the Promised Land.

But you are correct that it was a lack of FAITH (i.e. they didn't trust God to give them the land) ... which kept them out of the Promised Land.
 
Upvote 0

JojoM

Active Member
Jun 7, 2018
50
34
Madrid
✟3,559.00
Country
Saint Pierre And Miquelon
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Does God or Jesus forcibly save people against their will?

God save people who ask Him for help with a humble, broken heart. When He decides to put faith in someone’s heart, it is because that heart is humble enough in God’s eyes. It is all His work, nothing from us at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: friend of
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
God save people who ask Him for help with a humble, broken heart. When He decides to put faith in someone’s heart, it is because that heart is humble enough in God’s eyes. It is all His work, nothing from us at all.
I agree completely. My question was addressed to someone who believes that God will save everyone no matter what. Some folks believe that God will forcibly drag the unrighteous kicking and screaming into the kingdom after death whether they want to or not.
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟37,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think that you will have to understand that your interpretation ... is not one of the interpretations commonly taught. It will take a while for others to even understand your point of view. It will take still longer for others to confirm your view, ... as it were, from the scriptures.


This actually works AGAINST your premise of "once saved from death, always saved from death" ... as these Hebrews which were saved from the "death angel" ... later died before coming into the Promised Land.

But you are correct that it was a lack of FAITH (i.e. they didn't trust God to give them the land) ... which kept them out of the Promised Land.

I think that you will have to understand that your interpretation ... is not one of the interpretations commonly taught. It will take a while for others to even understand your point of view. It will take still longer for others to confirm your view, ... as it were, from the scriptures.

Yes, I understand that this interpretation is outside of what has been taught and believed. I have had the opportunity to search out the matter for many years and it is so obvious that it is hard for me to believe that it is not obvious to everyone once it is shown.

I do remember being very suspicious for a long time, thinking there is no way that those who received Christ for "salvation", were not also "saved" in the act of receiving him as Savior from death, were not also "saved" from the possibility of hell.

This actually works AGAINST your premise of "once saved from death, always saved from death" ... as these Hebrews which were saved from the "death angel" ... later died before coming into the Promised Land.

The types and shadows of the Jews covenant and God's interaction all took place in the natural/physical realm and for their and our instruction. Their covenant, confirmed every year by the blood of animals, did not bestow eternal life. It was pointing to, and ultimately fulfilled by Christ. It is only since then that the blood, His blood, results in eternal life.

As their example to us, we are forewarned that God is holy and has expectations, that although he has "saved" us from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world, that there are consequences for failing to obey what we know is his will, and to strive to enter what He has promised is our "inheritance", the kingdom of heaven.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:26

Can you see it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: docgfd
Upvote 0

JojoM

Active Member
Jun 7, 2018
50
34
Madrid
✟3,559.00
Country
Saint Pierre And Miquelon
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So why do we even need to hear it if there is nothing for us to consider and choose for ourselves to possess? Are we just buns in God's oven? You are suggesting that we can't even accept or reject his free gift because that would be us doing something that only he can do?

We cannot accept something that is not given to us. And faith is only given to those whose hearts are humble enough in front of God. No matter how loud we confess that Jesus is Lord, if our hearts are proud, we will never believe or realise the truth in our hearts because it is God who makes us believe by opening our eyes and revealing the truth to us.

I believe it is more wise to inspect our hearts instead in front of the law, and realise that we can only try to fulfill conditions but we can NEVER actually fulfill them.
 
Upvote 0

friend of

A private in Gods army
Supporter
Dec 28, 2016
5,556
3,914
provincial
✟753,613.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Inheritance" is the promised "kingdom of heaven" destiny that has conditions of the Lord's expectations of sons to meet for entry. Without which we are not "saved" from outer darkness

In your view, was the prodigal son allowed entrance into the kingdom of heaven despite forfitting his "inheritance" ?
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟37,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In your view, was the prodigal son allowed entrance into the kingdom of heaven despite forfitting his "inheritance" ?

The prodigal son did not forfeit his inheritance. He returned to his father's house and was completely restored to full "son-ship" and heir.

17 But when he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger! 18 I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’

20 So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
Our Father wants all of his sons to live in his household. But he will not compel us. He will respect the free will he has given us. If we choose to move away and pursue our "self life", he will allow it. However, if we decide to return, he is ever-watching, even while we are still "a long way off", he feels compassion for us and longs to restore us fully.

21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
The prodigal son understood what he had done and knew that he was unworthy of being restored as a son. But his father would not even hear of it, and didn't hold it over his head for a moment...

22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
Here is where we see how his father viewed the son while he was away...

24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.
Had the son not returned and died while he was away, he would have lost his opportunity to be restored and would have forfeited his inheritance.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ron Gurley

What U See is What U Get!
Supporter
Sep 22, 2015
4,000
1,029
Baton Rouge, LA
Visit site
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
"Inheritance" is the promised "kingdom of heaven" destiny that has conditions of the Lord's expectations of sons to meet for entry. Without which we are not "saved" from outer darkness.

FALSE DOCTRINE!

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

1 Peter 1:4
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
 
Upvote 0

TogetherInHim

Newbie
Supporter
May 23, 2014
190
42
✟37,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Inheritance" is the promised "kingdom of heaven" destiny that has conditions of the Lord's expectations of sons to meet for entry. Without which we are not "saved" from outer darkness.

FALSE DOCTRINE!

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

1 Peter 1:4
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

It would be wise not to label something as a "false doctrine" before you have made your case to disprove it. There are dozens of verses of scripture that I have laid out in this post that support the view that I have proposed, and I have presented my understanding as it relates to each verse. You have not refuted a single one that I have put forth, but rather you cite other scriptures that you believe refute it...which I will take each one and tell you what they mean in light of the understanding presented.

I have spent time and have respectfully replied to the verses you have cited as proof of a "false doctrine"...

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

The "inheritance" is not based on "law". Never said it was. The inheritance is bestowed at
"salvation" as a free, unearned gift reserved for those who walk in the manner that the Lord clearly defines. These defined expectations are not "legalisms" to be obeyed so as to "earn" entry. Bearing fruit while "abiding in the Vine" is a natural occurrence to those "saved" having been grafted in. However, a "branch in Me" that does not bear fruit, is cutaway and thrown into the fire. (see a prior post in this thread regarding John15).

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Context...

In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians

"we have obtained an inheritance", past tense. Our "inheritance" is already purchased at "salvation". The Holy Spirit is "given as a pledge of our inheritance". What does that mean?

Once we receive Christ's covenant, we have been given eternal life, "salvation". We also are given the Holy Spirit which we begin to sense and respond to (or resist and quench). We know we have a "treasure" ahead because we can now "see" (perceive and believe) the kingdom of heaven.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John3

Read the "Treasure Hidden in the Field" parable. The man, who must be born again, can now "see" the kingdom inheritance promise. When he finds the treasure (the kingdom of heaven) is he "buying" his inheritance? No. He is ordering his life so as to possess it at all cost. What if he did not order his life to possess it? Would he possess it anyway? The Lord expects us to value our priceless inheritance so much that we will do what he, as made known by the Holy Spirit, requires during our walk toward his kingdom.

Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Are you deliberately leaving out the context?

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.​

This doesn't need explanation, but I will anyway. Why is Paul praying that these believers, "walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work"?

Because the Lord has expectations! "Bearing fruit" and "good works" are called for because he has "qualified us to share in the inheritance", purchased by the blood of His Son. These are not "legalistic law obedience" matters. They are the reasonable expectations of a Father who gave us everything!

What happens if these "believers" (those who have accepted the covenant of Christ), go on sinning willfully and not "walk in a manner worthy of the Lord"?

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10​

Back in your Ephesians quote, "you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance" These believers have "insulted the spirit of grace by which he was sanctified", the very pledge of their inheritance. They will forfeit their inheritance, the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If the verse said, "Will receive" rather than "may receive", this discussion would be over. It does not because not everyone who has entered the covenant will receive the promise of the eternal inheritance even though it is theirs to possess...just as the Jews failed to enter their promised inheritance by failing to believe that it was theirs because they were required to fight for it.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Abraham's descendants failed to enter...

They came to the promised land, the "inheritance" that God promised Abraham. What happened?
They didn't believe that God has actually given them the promised "inheritance" and refused to fight for what was theirs...

What happened then? They were locked out permanently! It was the next generation that had faith, obeyed God and "entered the promised inheritance land".

Hebrews 4 cautions believers, using the Jews' unbelief as an example of the fact that we may fail to "enter" if we do not deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Jesus into the kingdom inheritance he promised...

4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”​

This is a warning to the New Testament believers. Why? If there is no possibility of the loss of our inheritance, why warn us to "fear" the loss?

1 Peter 1:4
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

If you would read the context of the verses you cite as proof of a "false doctrine", you would see in these same passages the proof that the interpretation I have laid out is true.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,​

A "reservation" has one's name on it. In our case, it is a bought and paid for place in the kingdom of heaven. Just as an earthly father can buy tickets for a cruise for his family to depart on a certain date, it is reserved in each child's name. The only thing the child has to do is show up and identify himself to board. The promised cruise is "his" from the time of his father's purchase. But if that child has other business, doesn't care enough to do the very reasonable expectation of his father of showing up, packed and ready to board, then what happens to his guaranteed reservation? He forfeits it.

5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

We will be tested.

Skipping down in the same passage...

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Is this a mere suggestion? Are there no consequences for having little or no regard for this "command"?

17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Why "conduct yourselves in fear" if there is nothing to lose?

Because...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries... 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified... and so on...


 
  • Winner
Reactions: docgfd
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,342
26,787
Pacific Northwest
✟728,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Then why doesn’t God force everyone to be saved my friend?

The Crux Theologorum in Lutheranism is the question: "Why are some saved and not others?" It is called the Crux Theologorum because the answer we have isn't very satisfying, and it is therefore the theologian's cross--the burden a theologian must carry.

If God desires everyone to be saved, and Scripture says so.
And if God has chosen us from the foundation of the world, and Scripture says so.
And if our salvation is God's work alone by what Christ has done and given to us by His grace alone, and Scripture says so.
Then why are some saved and not others?

The only biblical answer we have is that there are those who refuse and reject salvation. Therefore the reason some are saved and not others comes down to the human sinful will.

This may now strike you as not very reasonable, and that's because it isn't.

After all, if God is not only both willing, but actually accomplishes, our salvation apart from ourselves then why would there be anyone not saved? It must follow therefore that God has chosen some to not be saved. And that is the error of the Calvinists, who insert their reason to reach a conclusion that Scripture does not say, and thus requires rejecting the plain meaning of so much of Scripture: of God's love for the whole world, of Christ dying for everyone, of God's desire that all be saved, etc. Therefore the Calvinist conclusion, says the Lutheran, is not only unbiblical but completely contrary to Scripture.

For Lutherans the answer to the Crux Theologorum is not about reason, but confession. It isn't about synthesizing the most rational explanation from the biblical texts in such a way as they can fit comfortably in our reason. But, instead, that we approach what Scripture says with humility and faith, confessing what is said even if what is confessed does not, in the end, conform to our reason.

For Lutherans this is not so great a deal, for our Christian religion is saturated with immense mystery and paradox. For we confess one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance; and we confess one Lord Jesus Christ perfect in Godhead and perfect in manhood, of one substance with the Father from all eternity as the eternally-begotten Son and of one substance with us men by His conception and birth from the Virgin Mary the God-bearer. We confess one Lord Jesus, true God and true man, and we are therefor saying such foolish things as that the Eternal and Immortal God died on the Cross for us. We are confessing, also, that this Holy Eucharist which we receive in gladness and faith though being bread and wine, of no special importance of itself, is indeed the very and real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

Given the unfathomable depths of mystery we have from God, such things that we should not even dare trying to explain by mere reason; should it be entirely shocking that there are many mysteries and paradoxes that we cannot answer by mere reason?

At the end of the day it simply isn't our place to tell God what He ought to do or ought not do. We can be confident in what He has promised: that by Christ's death and resurrection we have been justified and reconciled to God, and that the word of this truth has gone forth as Gospel by which faith is created as pure gift, and that this word and promise has been attached to the mysteries of God's grace, in the waters of Holy Baptism, in the bread and wine of the Holy Eucharist. That here God has solemnly promised to act, to meet us in our lowliness and unworthiness, to take hold of us meager sinners and proclaim over us the fully adoption as sons and daughters, with our having contributed nothing of ourselves, but God alone acting, doing, and giving.

Why having heard the Gospel do I believe, but my neighbor does not? Was there something meritorious in myself? Hardly, even the faith by which I believe the good news is the gift of God apart from myself, so that I have no basis to boast. I have no boasting, I gave nothing to God and received everything from Him. I have nothing and I am nothing--I am bone, flesh, pride, and sin--who am I to boast? What have I to boast? Nothing. I am nothing. Christ has done everything, God has given me everything. All that I confess and hope is from God alone, the giver of every good and perfect gift.

So I look only to Christ, only to what Christ has done, only to what God has given. Only to these precious external treasures and gifts, which I have for no other reason than because of the kind and gracious God who so deigned to meet me, worthless wretch and sinner that I am, and declare that I am His beloved child, heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus. I was dead, and now I live. I was lost, but now am found. I did not seek after God, God sought after me. Not by any good thing, not by anything of value I have--but out of His pure, unmerited kindness.

That's what grace is.

Why are some not saved? Because, as we read in John's Gospel, men loved darkness more than the light because their deeds were evil. That's the only real answer we have to give.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,342
26,787
Pacific Northwest
✟728,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Wouldn't "cleave" be a work?

And if my cleaving to Christ were what saved me, then that would be a problem. But it's not my cleaving to Christ that saves me; I cleave to Christ because I have faith in Him, a faith that is apart from myself, being God's very gift.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums