What "Believers" Refuse to Believe (Part 1)

BNR32FAN

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I certainly hope so, otherwise we're all damned. If it was left to me, my works, my choices, and my sinful abominable will I would walk straight into hell. So I hope in nothing other than God's kindness, mercy, and grace shown to me in Christ, who I cleave to alone for my salvation, hoping and trusting only in Him and not myself.

-CryptoLutheran

Then why doesn’t God force everyone to be saved my friend?
 
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com7fy8

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Entrance to the kingdom of heaven is all about the fruit...
Fruit can mean the fruit of the Holy Spirit, I would say in our new character of God's love in Jesus. And fruit can mean works we need to do.

In order to enter the kingdom of heaven, we need how our Father corrects our character > Hebrews 12:4-11. And I understand there are things we need to do . . . but in union with God working in our willing and doing >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, these are not works of the Law, and not works of our own righteousness, but the works which we do in submission to God working our willing and doing in His own love curing our nature while we do what He has us doing. And He transforms us into His kingdom > His realm of how He is in His love and shares this with us in union and love's communion of sharing with Him >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

Interesting that you have so far removed our part of receiving salvation that we are not even required to "think" because you are calling that "work".
Galatians 2:16; Titus 3:5; and James says we are justified by works and not only by faith, but his examples of works which justify are works of personal loving > helping a needy person, putting God first and doing what He communicates with us personally for us to do with Him, and helping servants of the LORD < James chapter two.

If we do things in God's love, we are living in God's kingdom which is the kingdom of heaven where God's love is.

Do you agree? Thank you for taking the time to deal with what we are saying :)
 
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TogetherInHim

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Nice example of the father & adopted children. Just because requirements are placed on salvation doesn’t mean salvation is earned. The requirements are automatically achieved if the person has a saving faith. It is the type of faith we have that produces these required qualities that saves us. Not the qualities themselves but the type of faith that produces them. A faith that doesn’t produce them isn’t a saving faith. So yes we are saved by faith alone provided it is the right kind of faith. This is what James discusses in chapter 2 verses 14-26.

The requirements are automatically achieved if the person has a saving faith. It is the type of faith we have that produces these required qualities that saves us.

Yes, once we have "saving faith", the "requirements are automatically achieved". The "requirements are the bearing of fruit that happens when a seed has germinated and begins to come forth. That is where the parable of the sower sowing seed upon the different soils comes into play.



3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”
Notice that Jesus, right after telling his parable and before his explanation, tells the disciples that he is revealing the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven". He quotes Isaiah who says these things are hidden from the people whose heart has become dull, and who have closed their eyes.


10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’


16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Jesus explains...

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
No germination of the seed that was sown. No fruit produced, the requirement "of the kingdom"

20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

He "receives it" (saving faith), falls away, produces no fruit.

22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
"Chokes out the word". It was received but the "Word" (Jesus) was choked out. Became unfruitful.

23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

After "salvation", the Lord is expecting fruit-bearing. In each case the word was sown and received and there were outside influences in three of the four people that received the seed. Only one of the four examples "brought forth" what was expected by the Lord.

Entrance to the kingdom of heaven is all about the fruit-bearing after we have received the seed.
 
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TogetherInHim

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Fruit can mean the fruit of the Holy Spirit, I would say in our new character of God's love in Jesus. And fruit can mean works we need to do.

In order to enter the kingdom of heaven, we need how our Father corrects our character > Hebrews 12:4-11. And I understand there are things we need to do . . . but in union with God working in our willing and doing >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, these are not works of the Law, and not works of our own righteousness, but the works which we do in submission to God working our willing and doing in His own love curing our nature while we do what He has us doing. And He transforms us into His kingdom > His realm of how He is in His love and shares this with us in union and love's communion of sharing with Him >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

Galatians 2:16; Titus 3:5; and James says we are justified by works and not only by faith, but his examples of works which justify are works of personal loving > helping a needy person, putting God first and doing what He communicates with us personally for us to do with Him, and helping servants of the LORD < James chapter two.

If we do things in God's love, we are living in God's kingdom which is the kingdom of heaven where God's love is.

Do you agree? Thank you for taking the time to deal with what we are saying :)

Yes, when we are "working out our salvation", cooperating with the holy spirit who is our "Helper" who convicts and empowers us to both will and to do, we are operating in the kingdom realm. We have been given access to God and to know his will and have been given the power to carry it out. All of our fruit-bearing is love-motivated or it is worthless. We love God and demonstrate it, not out of fear and compulsion, but because it is what comes from his children who appreciate all that he has done and who he is.
 
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Der Alte

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I certainly hope so, otherwise we're all damned. If it was left to me, my works, my choices, and my sinful abominable will I would walk straight into hell. So I hope in nothing other than God's kindness, mercy, and grace shown to me in Christ, who I cleave to alone for my salvation, hoping and trusting only in Him and not myself.
-CryptoLutheran
Wouldn't "cleave" be a work?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes, once we have "saving faith", the "requirements are automatically achieved". The "requirements are the bearing of fruit that happens when a seed has germinated and begins to come forth. That is where the parable of the sower sowing seed upon the different soils comes into play.



3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”
Notice that the Jesus, right after telling his parable and before his explanation, tells the disciples that he is revealing the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven". He quotes Isaiah who says these things are hidden from the people whose heart has become dull, and who have closed their eyes.


10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’


16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Jesus explains...

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
No germination of the seed that was sown. No fruit produced, the requirement "of the kingdom"

20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

He "receives it" (saving faith), falls away, produces no fruit.

22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
"Chokes out the word". It was received but the "Word" (Jesus) was choked out. Became unfruitful.

23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

After "salvation", the Lord is expecting fruit-bearing. In each case the word was sown and received and there were outside influences in three of the four people that received the seed. Only one of the four examples "brought forth" what was expected by the Lord.

Entrance to the kingdom of heaven is all about the fruit-bearing after we have received the seed.

Not only bearing fruit but also repentance is required. Of course we will all fail to fully repent of sin but as long as we stay in our faith He is faithful to forgive us. Praise The Lord!!
 
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Blade

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What is a GIFT? This GIFT is not of our selfs. He does not take it back.. does not did not want expect anything for it. How can anyone love someone you don't know? And before that to expect what? You don't know Him. Do you KNOW your spouse your girl/boy friend? Spend that much time with GOD? To get to know Him?

I want to add.. Your free. What happens after this life YOU made that choice. He NEVER goes against ANYONES will. That is not written and goes against the word of God. Every one gets a choice. I challenge you.. take time and PRAY about this. Ask GOD...why don't you just save everyone no matter what. Go for it.. what I got back was "DONT EVER say that again". Christ came.. thats what this GOD did for the world. Adam and Eve.. made a choice. That CHOICE has a price....and sorry but your FREE and you MUST except the price for that choice YOU freely made. Unless your blind..then you would have no sin.. we say we see though and our sin remains.

The CLOSER we get to Him the more we know and understand and see. Read the word pray ALWAYS.. the more sin the more we do what this flesh wants.. the more He pulls away so to speak and the enemy comes in. It is HE..ALL HIM. We have no knowledge at all with out Him. We are not smarter nor can we see hear understand ANYTHING with out Him. Your not special.. be it that WORLD KNOWN preacher vs that person that teaches Sunday School only once a week or that person that is alone in prayer. Its ALL for HIS kingdom. Were family. He watches over you as He does ALL His kids. You have been saved from DEATH so many times.. and you never knew it. How many times did something happen that STOPPED you from doing something going somewhere? Or out of no where.. you seemed so LUCKY (no luck in heaven) how YOU got there 1st..when others could not.. I can keep going.

He does this for ALL. WE NEED HIM. He does not need us. He CHOOSES to use us. So.. if you want to KNOW MORE SEE MORE UNDERSTAND MORE... GET CLOSE TO HIM! If YOU draw near to HIM He will to you. HE CAN NOT LIE! Again the more we do things OUR way.. He has no choice.. He has to wait.. that hand comes off you that now leaves room for the enemy. PROVE THIS WRONG.. pray always.. in the spirit and about EVERYTHING. Watch EVERYTHING you say.. think see hear. ONLY what brings glory and praise to ONLY HIM..not you. What PLEASES HIM? FAITH! What to see how HARD this EASY road is?

Make it ALL about HIM and NEVER you. Then when you do.. watch how this GOD your FATHER gives you supplys you with EVERYTHING you have ever needed.. you have more joy more peace then you ever did. You have a joy to READ His word.. to speak it to people you never would have. A boldness you never had. And... if you simply DISAGREE.. do it with love and talk debate and NEVER get upset..its NOT ABOUT YOU..EVERYTHING is HIM HIM HIM! All praise all thanks...read how the 12 would talk.. read how they greeted each other. FEEL Like that do we? This LOVE they speak about at the start then at the end. SO HAPPY to see that brother you never seem to agree with? ALL of this comes after we KNOW HIM 1st...seek HIM 1st...or your just reading the word and then sharing how YOU or I personally feel and DUH were right your wrong.. and pat our selfs on the back as if we have shared the REAL gospel. As long as YOUR not in it.. and only HE gets the glory.. praise GOD glory to Jesus. Come lord Jesus
 
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A_Thinker

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Entrance to the kingdom of heaven is all about the fruit-bearing after we have received the seed.

So ... what, then, do you make of Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 3 ...

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved — even though only as one escaping through the flames.
 
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TogetherInHim

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Not only bearing fruit but also repentance is required. Of course we will all fail to fully repent of sin but as long as we stay in our faith He is faithful to forgive us. Praise The Lord!!

Yes, repentance, turning away from sin and toward God, is essential. A "bad tree" cannot bear "good fruit". We must first recognize our need for a Savior and accept his saving grace, then he will impart the to us inwardly his holy spirit that will grow and bear fruit.

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matthew 4​
 
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Ron Gurley

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SALVATION: Conditions? and Benefits!

Salvation: through FAITH / BELIEF that God the Father unconditionally loved you so much that He lowered himself to become God the Man, Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah, who became a substitute for and savior from YOUR shortcomings. You may have tried to be perfect. You could not. Jesus was. He paid the price. He and you were RECONCILED to God the Father who was satisfied.
Your spirit was awakened/CHANGED. You were forgiven. You were "saved". Jesus saves.

There are NO OTHER CONDITIONS other than accepting this gift of grace through FAITH / BELIEF!!:
NOT Repentance...which is nothing more than re-thinking...you don't have to be "purified".
NOT Confession...which is simply agreeing with God...you don't have to "come forward" / be public.
NOT Surrender...although you might want to dedicate yourself later as thanks for being saved now.
NOT Baptism...although this is a traditional outward sign of a believer's inward spiritual change.

Progressive Salvation: OF / FROM SIN....
POSITION versus PRACTICE
...How God views us VS. Christian Living

I was saved from the PRISON (of SIN) in the PAST....simple "saving faith"...Ephesians 2:8, verses below

The blessings / results / benefits of salvation:

1. Substitution: "in the place of"
2. Redemption: " pay ransom, remove, and release "= ~= atonement
3. Reconciliation: "alienation / separation ends" = ~= atonement
4. Propititation: "satisfaction with action" ~= atonement
5. Sin Nature Judged: "good overcomes bad"...spiritual nature changed
6. Justification: "view: Just-if-I..never sinned " ...a defense raised by the Advocate
7. Sanctification: "changed" / "born again" / "set aside"
8. Sonship "adoption" into God's Family
9. FORGIVENESS OF SINS

I am being saved from the POWER (of SIN) in the PRESENT

....influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit in our daily "battles" against the foes.
Sanctification (being set apart) is A Progressive Process:
"Good Works" guided by Holy Spirit to the eventual Judgement of Believer's Works.
A saved BELIEVER receives "continued grace" by the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit
which "gift of LOVE" he can return by "walking in / being led by" the Spirit: And this may well involve:
"Repentance"..."Confession"..."Surrender"..."Baptism"..."Works"...
Faith put to WORK! Becoming more "Christ like" by following his precepts and spiritual guidance.

John 15 (NIV) (extracts...comments),,,,The Vine and the Branches
..."I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains (stay?) in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing....(of spiritual value?)
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples....(followers)
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
If you obey my commands (precepts/teachings), you will remain in my love,
just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you...
This is my command: Love each other.

(Saving) FAITH without (spiritually guided and following ) WORKS is DEAD (judged useless)....
James 2: 14-26


I will be saved from the PRESENCE (of SIN) in the FUTURE

...Eternity in the New Heavens and Earth, with the Tri-Une God
Revelation 21....The New Jerusalem
...He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away....
...On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

SAVING FAITH:

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who received him,
to those who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God...
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,(Jesus) who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Acts 16: 30-31 (NIV)
Paul and Silas...He then brought them out and asked,
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved
—you and your household."

Romans 10: 8-12 (NASB)

But what does it (Scripture)say?
“The WORD is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”
—that is, the word of FAITH (BELIEF) which we are preaching,
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and
believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved;
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,
and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek;
for the same Lord is Lord of all,
abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”...
 
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TogetherInHim

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If works are not to be considered, what did Jesus mean when He said it is not those who call Him Lord (= believers) who will be saved, but those who DO the work of His Father? "Do" sounds like works to me.

You have misquoted Jesus.

Jesus said, "21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7

You said, "it is not those who call Him Lord (= believers) who will be saved"

This quote is not about "salvation" from the curse of death that Adam brought upon the world. It is about our inheritance, the entrance to the kingdom of heaven.

The point of this discussion is that the "Do's" that are required to enter the kingdom of heaven, are the demonstration of fruit-bearing that are the joyful natural expression of a child of God who "knows" what pleases his Father and that he expects to see produced in the lives of his children. Without which, one demonstrates that he doesn't have a high regard for the Lord's business and there are consequences.

Watch the brief video summary of the study at: www.WhoGoesToHell.com
 
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TogetherInHim

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SALVATION: Conditions? and Benefits!

Salvation: through FAITH / BELIEF that God the Father unconditionally loved you so much that He lowered himself to become God the Man, Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah, who became a substitute for and savior from YOUR shortcomings. You may have tried to be perfect. You could not. Jesus was. He paid the price. He and you were RECONCILED to God the Father who was satisfied.
Your spirit was awakened/CHANGED. You were forgiven. You were "saved". Jesus saves.

There are NO OTHER CONDITIONS other than accepting this gift of grace through FAITH / BELIEF!!:
NOT Repentance...which is nothing more than re-thinking...you don't have to be "purified".
NOT Confession...which is simply agreeing with God...you don't have to "come forward" / be public.
NOT Surrender...although you might want to dedicate yourself later as thanks for being saved now.
NOT Baptism...although this is a traditional outward sign of a believer's inward spiritual change.

Progressive Salvation: OF / FROM SIN....
POSITION versus PRACTICE
...How God views us VS. Christian Living

I was saved from the PRISON (of SIN) in the PAST....simple "saving faith"...Ephesians 2:8, verses below

The blessings / results / benefits of salvation:

1. Substitution: "in the place of"
2. Redemption: " pay ransom, remove, and release "= ~= atonement
3. Reconciliation: "alienation / separation ends" = ~= atonement
4. Propititation: "satisfaction with action" ~= atonement
5. Sin Nature Judged: "good overcomes bad"...spiritual nature changed
6. Justification: "view: Just-if-I..never sinned " ...a defense raised by the Advocate
7. Sanctification: "changed" / "born again" / "set aside"
8. Sonship "adoption" into God's Family
9. FORGIVENESS OF SINS

I am being saved from the POWER (of SIN) in the PRESENT

....influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit in our daily "battles" against the foes.
Sanctification (being set apart) is A Progressive Process:
"Good Works" guided by Holy Spirit to the eventual Judgement of Believer's Works.
A saved BELIEVER receives "continued grace" by the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit
which "gift of LOVE" he can return by "walking in / being led by" the Spirit: And this may well involve:
"Repentance"..."Confession"..."Surrender"..."Baptism"..."Works"...
Faith put to WORK! Becoming more "Christ like" by following his precepts and spiritual guidance.

John 15 (NIV) (extracts...comments),,,,The Vine and the Branches
..."I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains (stay?) in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing....(of spiritual value?)
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples....(followers)
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
If you obey my commands (precepts/teachings), you will remain in my love,
just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you...
This is my command: Love each other.

(Saving) FAITH without (spiritually guided and following ) WORKS is DEAD (judged useless)....
James 2: 14-26


I will be saved from the PRESENCE (of SIN) in the FUTURE

...Eternity in the New Heavens and Earth, with the Tri-Une God
Revelation 21....The New Jerusalem
...He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away....
...On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

SAVING FAITH:

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who received him,
to those who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God...
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,(Jesus) who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Acts 16: 30-31 (NIV)
Paul and Silas...He then brought them out and asked,
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved
—you and your household."

Romans 10: 8-12 (NASB)

But what does it (Scripture)say?
“The WORD is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”
—that is, the word of FAITH (BELIEF) which we are preaching,
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and
believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved;
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness,
and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek;
for the same Lord is Lord of all,
abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”...


Yes, all of the above is about "salvation" and true. We are not discussing "salvation". We are discussing the detailed expectations of the Lord of those who have been "saved" from the curse of "death" that Adam brought upon the world, so as to gain "entrance to the kingdom of heaven, our "inheritance".

The parables and explicit admonitions of Jesus to those whom he has "saved" from death and given everlasting life are throughout the New Testament. The Lord's reasonable expectations of those whom he has "saved" and reserved a place in the kingdom of heaven, our "inheritance", are detailed. He requires the demonstration of a life that bears the fruit he expects or the "servant" forfeits his "inheritance" as did Esau.

Watch the brief video summary of the study at: www.WhoGoesToHell.com

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:26


If we say, “Well, he wasn’t really saved…” or, "He wasn't really a servant", we are contradicting the Lord who has defined this relationship as “Lord” and “Servant”. The Lord has no expectation of productivity from those who have not received him in covenant. Even if they “produced” something, that could not result in "salvation" or it would be a works-based salvation. No, it’s all about the entrance to the kingdom, our "inheritance"...
 
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Chinchilla

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How could you be a child ... and, yet, not received a child's inheritance ... unless you formally rejected it ? Sounds like a bit of "sleight of hand" to me.

Even the Prodigal Son received his inheritance ...

He didn't . He was supposed to have it after his father died not when he was alive , it's like wishing your father to die faster back in these times it was really bad and father would feel really bad but gave his son a chance to learn the lesson .
He didn't receive his inheritance because he spend it away and had nothing left in the end .
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes, all of the above is about "salvation" and true. We are not discussing "salvation". We are discussing the detailed expectations of the Lord of those who have been "saved" from the curse of "death" that Adam brought upon the world, so as to gain "entrance to the kingdom of heaven, our "inheritance".

The parables and explicit admonitions of Jesus to those whom he has "saved" from death and given everlasting life are throughout the New Testament. The Lord's reasonable expectations of those whom he has "saved" and reserved a place in the kingdom of heaven, our "inheritance", are detailed. He requires the demonstration of a life that bears the fruit he expects or the "servant" forfeits his "inheritance" as did Esau.

Watch the brief video summary of the study at: www.WhoGoesToHell.com

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:26


If we say, “Well, he wasn’t really saved…” or, "He wasn't really a servant", we are contradicting the Lord who has defined this relationship as “Lord” and “Servant”. The Lord has no expectation of productivity from those who have not received him in covenant. Even if they “produced” something, that could not result in "salvation" or it would be a works-based salvation. No, it’s all about the entrance to the kingdom, our "inheritance"...

You are speaking as if salvation and entering heaven are two different things. How is someone saved if they cannot enter heaven?
 
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Ron Gurley

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A John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2 SALVATION EVENT begins the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS until Judgment of the Believer's Works.

The spiritual position of the believer IN Christ is NOT judged.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die (Body/Soul combo) once and after this comes judgment,(of spirit)

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS...loss/gain of rewards

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we (believers) must all appear before the (spiritual) Judgment Seat (bema) of Christ,
so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the BODY, (/SOUL)
according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

A believer NEVER loses his salvation because he is not "fruitful". John 15
 
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Mountainmike

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We know that “salvation”, receiving Jesus as our Savior and accepting His free gift of eternal life, has no requirements. It is offered to all who call upon His name. There are no works to be considered.

No we don't know that.

Believers dont believe it, because it isnt true!
You cannot cherrypick prooftext verses and draw any valid conclusion.

Many examples could be chosen to disagree....so just choose a couple

Sheep and goats Mat 25:31-46 makes it quite clear what happens without works of charity.
That is not "salvation by works" or any of the "usual" misrepresentations, because by themselves no amount of works are enough. But it is quite clear they are necessary, and every day you have a new choice - do what is asked or not.

Calling upon his name is not enough. As stated in Mat 7:21 - "not all who say lord lord " ..."but those who do the will of my father"

Indeed the only place the bible uses the word "faith alone" and that is to say faith is not enough without works!

Indeed there are many things you are told to do, take a valid eucharist - in John 6:52 on without which "our Lord says you have no life in you" and if you do "he will raise you up at the last day".

And we know from those taught by even apostle John himslef, exactly what that means, because of their writings. A eucharist of the "real flesh" only valid if performed by a bishop in succession or his appointee.

So when the just judge asks you why you did not do what he asked, or believe what he said...you will struggle for an answer, or why he should not do, what he said he would in sheep and goats.

So the reason we do not believe what you said, is because scripture, tradition and authoirty of the church, tells us it is not true!







“Salvation” versus “Inheritance”

We know that “salvation”, receiving Jesus as our Savior and accepting His free gift of eternal life, has no requirements. It is offered to all who call upon His name. There are no works to be considered.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2)​

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10)​


There is a difference between what it takes to receive “salvation” and what it takes to lay hold of our promised “inheritance”, the kingdom of heaven.


The Scenario

Picture children being adopted by a father. They are given their new father’s name. They are loved and cared for all their life as long as they do not choose to leave their father’s house. They are brought up to have their father’s values and work in their father’s business, learning how to one day run it as their father has done. The father made a will. It included all his children that would ever be adopted, promising them his estate and all his wealth.

The Will-

Each child is a beneficiary named in the father’s will. The father wants his children to have all that he owns, but will not take away their right to do as they please, taking up his offer or going their own way. He put forth certain conditions that each of his children must meet in order to possess what is guaranteed to them by the will according to the father’s wishes.

1. The child must choose to remain in the father’s house and work in his business. They
are free to go.​
2. The child must demonstrate his desire to possess the estate by being productive
according to his father’s expectations.​
3. If the child chooses to leave, he is permitted to go, but can return if he chooses to.

4. If the child chooses to leave and has not returned by the time the will is executed, he
forfeits his inheritance.​


Question 1: Did the children earn their adoption, or was it something that they were given by
the father?​

Question 2: Did the children earn their place in the father’s will, or was it given at birth?

Question 3: Will the children have earned their inheritance by obeying his father’s wishes so
as to possess it?​


What Christians absolutely cannot accept, is that the Lord requires something from those who have received “salvation” and have also been given, free of works, an “inheritance” that must be strived for in order to obtain what has been promised.

Once we have been “born again”, we have been “adopted” into the family of God. We have his name and we have been promised an “inheritance” to be possessed in the future. We have been given an eternal spirit giving us everlasting life. We will one day be resurrected to receive our “inheritance”. We did not earn either our “salvation” (the free gift of everlasting life), or our “inheritance” (the kingdom of heaven).

If we do not distinguish between what constitutes “salvation” from what is expected by our Father to possess what he has promised, (our “inheritance”) then we can never understand what is hidden in the parables…

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (Luke 8)​

When Jesus says, “The kingdom of heaven is like…” He is not referring to salvation!


He is explaining the “mysteries of the kingdom of heaven”. “Salvation” and our “inheritance” are two separate and distinctly different aspects of our adoption. Both are unmerited, free gifts received by faith. Once we “see” the kingdom of heaven, we must value it enough to seek to possess it at all costs…

Matthew 13:44
[ Hidden Treasure ] “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Matthew 13:45
[ A Costly Pearl ] “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Is Jesus saying that we must “buy” the kingdom of heaven? No, but he is saying that obtaining it will cost you everything. If you can’t “see” that there is something required, you will never be able to see the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven revealed.

Mark 10:24
The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

What?...


How about the Master of the Servants and his expectations? Read it in its entirety…

14 “The kingdom of heaven is like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.

16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.


19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’


22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’


24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’


26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’


29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25)


If you can read that parable and not see that this “Master”, who owns these “slaves” has expectations that have rewards and consequences, then… “but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” (Luke 8)

Watch a brief video summary of this study at:
www.WhoGoesToHell.com
 
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A_Thinker

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He didn't . He was supposed to have it after his father died not when he was alive , it's like wishing your father to die faster back in these times it was really bad and father would feel really bad but gave his son a chance to learn the lesson .

He didn't receive his inheritance because he spend it away and had nothing left in the end .

Is the Prodigal Son not a picture of the following ...

1 Corinthians 3

12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved — even though only as one escaping through the flames.
 
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A John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2 SALVATION EVENT begins the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS until Judgment of the Believer's Works.

The spiritual position of the believer IN Christ is NOT judged.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die (Body/Soul combo) once and after this comes judgment,(of spirit)

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS...loss/gain of rewards

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we (believers) must all appear before the (spiritual) Judgment Seat (bema) of Christ,
so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the BODY, (/SOUL)
according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

A believer NEVER loses his salvation because he is not "fruitful". John 15

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6

Someone must be a believer to be able to remain in Christ. They cannot be in Christ if they do not believe. So please explain the branches that will be thrown away and burned.
 
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