Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[keras]

Your comment is totally unsupported by scripture.

A serious untruth!
I provided two scriptures in #1471.

Jesus ascended to heaven back in Acts 1. He is in heaven, opening the seals on the book, showing John what will take place in the end times.

This is correct, EXCEPTING for the Sixth and Seventh Seals.
The Sixth Seal will be the 'sudden destruction' of 1 Thessalonians 5:3

 

[Douggg]

You are promoting that Jesus will Come To Gather The Believers Before The Man Of Sin Is Revealed ....What you promote is the OPPOSITE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for [it will not be,] except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

You have misunderstood 1Thessalonians5, so you do not understand 2Thesslaonians2:1-3

Paul in 1Thessalonians5, indicates that the rapture must take place before the peace and safety illusion is shattered, and the Day of the Lord beginning. The rapture is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to gather us to him.

It is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.
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In his follow up letter in 2Thessalonians2, Paul gives the two signs regarding the beginning of the Day of the Lord. In verse 1, Paul refers back to the rapture, which he said that the rapture begins before the Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5.

Ribera, when you read 2Thessalonians2:1-3, you are acting as if 1Thessalonians5 never existed.

 

[Riberra]

You have misunderstood 1Thessalonians5, so you do not understand 2Thesslaonians2:1-3

Paul in 1Thessalonians5, indicates that the rapture must take place before the peace and safety illusion is shattered, and the Day of the Lord beginning. The rapture is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to gather us to him.

It is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.
_______________________________________________________________

In his follow up letter in 2Thessalonians2, Paul gives the two signs regarding the beginning of the Day of the Lord. In verse 1, Paul refers back to the rapture, which he said that the rapture begins before the Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5.

Ribera, when you read 2Thessalonians2:1-3, you are acting as if 1Thessalonians5 never existed.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for [it will not be,] except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

The Day when Jesus WILL COME to gather us unto him will not happen before that there is a Massive Apostasy[departure from the Faith] in the Church ,and that the Man Of Sin is Revealed.

This made void ''your claim that Jesus will Come to Gather Us Unto Him Before'' The Man of Sin Is Revealed...

So you and all the pre-tribbers can try to play your game like you want you have been BUSTED BY SCRIPTURE.

 

[BABerean2]

In the next chapter, 1Thesslaonians5, Paul explains the whole thing of when.... before the Day of the Lord years begin.

Which translation contains the word "before" ?

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (KJV)

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[Douggg]

The Day when Jesus WILL COME to gather us unto him will not happen before that there is a Massive Apostasy[departure from the Faith] in the Church ,and that the Man Of Sin is Revealed.

The Day of the Lord, not the day of Jesus coming to gather them in the resurrection/rapture unto him.

 

[Douggg]

Which translation contains the word "before" ?

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (KJV)

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Well, you didn't continue with these verses....

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


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Luke 21:34-36

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

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5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[BABerean2]

Well, you didn't continue with these verses....

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


__________________________________________________________________
Luke 21:34-36

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

_________________________________________________________________

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

"That day", which is "the day of the Lord", will not overtake us as a thief.

It is the day Peter was looking for in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

The text says nothing about us being removed "before" that day.

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[Douggg]

"That day", which is "the day of the Lord", will not overtake us as a thief.

It is the day Peter was looking for in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

The text says nothing about us being removed "before" that day.

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Are you talking about in 2Peter3 ? It is because Peter was talking about everything in this world is going to eventually be destroyed, so don't listen to the mocking of the wicked.

The time during the Day of the Lord when everything will be destroyed is after the millenium messianic age and Satan's short last rebellion, right before the Great Throne Judgment.

Differently, 1Thessalonians5, and Luke 21:34-36, and 2Thessalonians2:4 is talking about the very beginning years of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord, the early years include the 1335 days of the great tribulation. The Day of the Lord, after Jesus returns, is the 1000 years millennium, the messianic age.

The Day of the Lord after the millennium, includes the destruction of this present earth and heaven. The Day of the Lord after the destruction of this present earth and heaven includes the final judgement of the dead, the Great White Throne judgment. The Day of the Lord, after the Great White Throne judgment includes a new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem... eternity.

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians 2
The Day when Jesus WILL COME to gather us unto him will not happen before that there is a Massive Apostasy[departure from the Faith] in the Church ,and that the Man Of Sin is Revealed.

You have it reversed from the text. Saying Peace and safety just precedes the Day of the Lord begininng.

First, the saying of peace and safety, and the great falling away. Then, once that state of affairs goes on for around 3 years 3 months into the seven years, the person commits the act that triggers the Day of the Lord. Which them who were saying peace and safety shall not escape the Day of the Lord.

Differently, Jesus says in Luke 21:34-36 of how to escape that day.

btw, I am not pre-trib, although the rapture could take place pre-trib. I am anytime rapture view, which takes into account that the rapture may not happen until after the 70th week begins - but before the person commits the act in 2Thessalonians2:4, sometime around 3 years 3 months into the 7 years.

 

[BABerean2]

Are you talking about in 2Peter3 ? It is because Peter was talking about everything in this world is going to eventually be destroyed, so don't listen to the mocking of the wicked.

The time during the Day of the Lord when everything will be destroyed is after the millenium messianic age and Satan's short last rebellion, right before the Great Throne Judgment.

Differently, 1Thessalonians5, and Luke 21:34-36, and 2Thessalonians2:4 is talking about the very beginning years of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord, the early years include the 1335 days of the great tribulation. The Day of the Lord, after Jesus returns, is the 1000 years millennium, the messianic age.

The Day of the Lord after the millennium, includes the destruction of this present earth and heaven. The Day of the Lord after the destruction of this present earth and heaven includes the final judgement of the dead, the Great White Throne judgment. The Day of the Lord, after the Great White Throne judgment includes a new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem... eternity.

We find "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, and 2 Peter 3:10. He "comes as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16.
The are all speaking of the same day, and the same event.

He judges both the living and the dead at His return in 2 Timothy 4:1.

He returns "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, just as the fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20.

He judges the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46, which leaves no living mortals on the planet.

The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible in Revelation 11:15.

Then "the time of the judgment of the dead" occurs in Revelation 11:18.
The same event is described at the end of Revelation 20.

Your Bible says the same thing.

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[Douggg]

We find "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, and 2 Peter 3:10. He "comes as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16.

No, it doesn't say as "He" comes as a thief in 1Thessalonian5. It says the Day of the Lord comes as a thief.

As I wrote to you before, you are taking a saying "like a thief" and equating all the passages it is used to think those passages all take place at the same time. You are making a mistake by using that approach, BaB2.

I can give you another example of a saying used - but readily can be seen not to equate different times. The saying is "every man beneath his own fig tree". Look that saying up and see how it is used in the bible. It was used to talk about during Solomon's time. And during the end times of the messianic age. Obviously those two times are not the same.

 

[BABerean2]

No, it doesn't say as "He" comes as a thief. It says the Day of the Lord comes as a thief.

Who is "He" ?

Is He the Lord?

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[Douggg]

Who is "He" ?

Is He the Lord?

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I have written you before...

The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works. The Day of the Lord is when God begins to bring the hammer down, and destroys Satan and his works. It is God's day.

 

[Riberra]

I have written you before...

The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works. The Day of the Lord is when God begins to bring the hammer down, and destroys Satan and his works. It is God's day.

Satan will be destroyed after the 1,000 years Reign of Jesus on the Earth...just before the Great White Throne Judgment.
Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works
....
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Riberra]

The rapture in 1Thessalonians5 is in verses 9-11.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Salvation does not mean that you will be taken out of the earth before the Tribulation.

Salvation mean that you will not end into the lake of fire like the unrepentant sinners.
Revelation 20:15
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Another proof of a Bible passage who have been twisted and denatured by the pre-tribbers .

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 is about MESSIANIC SALVATION...that we obtain at the condition of KEEPING the Faith in Jesus all our life ...no matter what kind of tribulation be it small or Great we will have to goes through.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he that ENDURETH To The End, the same shall be saved.

As i have mentioned in another post
Matthew 24:13 prove that there will be NO REMOVAL OUT OF THE EARTH OF THE BELIEVERS TO AVOID TRIBULATION, BE IT small OR GREAT.

The belief in the pre-trib rapture DOCTRINE is very appealing [''we will not be there when the bad stuff will begin to happen'']...but that feeling will vanish as soon that the real stuff will begin and that you will realize that you are still on the Earth...

The lie of the pre-trib rapture goes even further because they make you believe that you will not die ..that you will receive your reward before being Judged at the Great White Throne Judgment ...that you will be SUPPOSEDLY taken to Heaven while you are alive before any troubles.
It remind something
Genesis 3:4
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

That old lie of Satan is still very attractive...and have hundred of millions of followers named the pre-tribbers [you will not be there when the bad stuff begin ...and you will not die because you will be taken to Heaven while you are alive.]

Do you know that there are some believers here who have the eyes to see [able to see] who is behind the lie of the pre-trib rapture DOCTRINE who will lead the followers of your doctrine to depart from the Faith as soon that they will realize that they are still on the Earth when the real stuff will begin...That Will Be the Great Falling AWAY FROM THE FAITH IN THE CHURCH That Paul talk about.

You have been deceived and happy with that ...the feeling that the pre-trib rapture DOCTRINE provide is so good .... its like a drug !

 

[Douggg]

Satan will be destroyed after the 1,000 years Reign of Jesus on the Earth...just before the Great White Throne Judgment.

I agree that Satan will be cast into the lake of fire after the 1,000 years. But he will not have his kingdom of mystery, Babylon the Great anymore once the great tribulation is over.

Gog and Magog as found in Revelation 20, is just saying Gog and Magog all over again - a repeat attempt by the nations to destroy Israel.

 

[Douggg]

Salvation does not mean that you will be taken out of the earth before the Tribulation.

Salvation mean that you will not end into the lake of fire like the unrepentant sinners.

It means that because we are saved, we are not appointed to the wrath that is going to take place in the beginning years of the Day of the Lord, by being raptured out of the world.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain SALVATION by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 is about MESSIANIC SALVATION...that we obtain at the condition of KEEPING the Faith in Jesus all our life ...no matter what kind of tribulation be it small or Great we will have to goes through.

You have resorted to creating your own terms and concepts, you hate the pre-trib rapture possibility so much.

The belief in the pre-trib rapture DOCTRINE is very appealing [''we will not be there when the bad stuff will begin to happen'']...but that feeling will vanish as soon that the real stuff will begin and that you will realize that you are still on the Earth...

The lie of the pre-trib rapture goes even further because they make you believe that you will not die ..that you will receive your reward before being Judged at the Great White Throne Judgment ...that you will be SUPPOSEDLY taken to Heaven while you are alive before any troubles.

Think about who you are packaging as telling a lie - when you say a pre-trib rapture is a lie. God may deciide the rapture to be pre-trib. You would be a lot better off, to say that the rapture might happen pre-trib (pre-70th week) or it might not. Because as is - by your declarations - you may be cutting yourself off from the rapture.

The pre-trib rapture includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

It is not a lie, that them who are saved, resurrected and raptured prior to the millennium rule do not appear before the Great White Throne Judgment.

Jesus is coming and His reward is with Him.

 

[BABerean2]

9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works
....
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works
....
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

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2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

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The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions, as proven by the text above.

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[Erik Nelson]

rev 8 clearly shows that the 7 seals lead into the seven trumpets

unambiguously sequential

tangentially the seven angels before the throne may be the archangels Michael Gabriel Raphael and company?

 

[BABerean2]

rev 8 clearly shows that the 7 seals lead into the seven trumpets

unambiguously sequential

tangentially the seven angels before the throne may be the archangels Michael Gabriel Raphael and company?

The seals book is a summary of the entire Book of Revelation.
Christ removes the seals one at a time, and then John is told... "Come and see." John then tells us what he saw.

Then John is told to eat the book and prophesy again.

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

John then proceeds to share other visions about what he had already seen, which are revealed not by "seeing" the book, but by "eating" the book.

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