Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[iamlamad]

Exactly..........THE WRATH BEGINS AT THE 6TH SEAL. The tribulation of that day is over.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

Exactly..........THE WRATH BEGINS AT THE 6TH SEAL. The tribulation of that day is over.

I hate to be so blunt, but you really have no idea where the days of GT are found in Revelation. First John gives us chapter 12 about the Dragon, for we know the Beast will be driven by the Dragon. Then in chapter 13 the Beast is introduced, because He will be revealed as the Beast in chapter 11 when He enters the temple.
Then in chapter 14 God gives the warning NOT to take the mark: in other words, the mark is NOT YET enforced and probably not yet created. Finally, in chapter 15, we see the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. therefore the days of GT come after the warning in chapter 14, through chapter 15 and maybe a ways into chapter 16. God will use the vials of His wrath to shorten those days.

You have missed John's entire point: God's wrath BEGINS at the 6th seal, continues on through the trumpets and on into the vials. You cannot separate God's wrath with Satan's wrath for they are concurrent in timing.

You can put Matthew 24 after the 6th seal - as if they go together - but you are caught: they do NOT go together, for they will come over 7 years apart.

What John is telling us is that the sign for His coming (Rev. 9 coming) will be TOTAL DARKNESS! No light from the sun. No light from the moon. No light from the stars. It will be BLACK.

On the other hand, at the 6th seal, the moon will be reflecting light - a red colored light.

What you have missed: these are TWO DIFFERENT signs for two different purposes. The red moon sign is for the Day of the Lord, while total darkness is the sign for His coming in power and splendor on white horses.

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

NOT. You seem to think you can rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. Well, your theory will be proven wrong. You cannot go by imagination! You have to go by what is written. Go back and look in chapter 14, where God gives the warning: do you really think God would warn people not to take the mark - months or years after the mark was established and enforced?

No! What John is showing us is that the mark is not even created until after the warning in chapter 14. As further proof, the beheaded don't begin showing up in heaven until chapter 15!

You have almost turned Revelation inside out with your theories! If I were you, I would dump them all into file 13 and start over! Only this time don't rearrange Revelation!

 

[Copperhead]

I guess I missed your post before. I want to comment on one sentence:
Therefore, there is no way for the first seal (the revealing of the false messiah or "antichrist") to start with the Bride (Church) still being on the earth!!

There, my friend, is an error in your thinking. Don't take my word for it: go back and really study chapters 4 & 5 that are the context for the first seal. John gives us TIMING in those two chapters. Notice that John got to see in vision form the very moment Jesus ascended back into heaven after rising from the dead. TIME? 32 AD! Sorry, but there is no 2000 years hidden anywhere there. The first seal then was opened in 32 AD and is NOT referring to the Antichrist. It is the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world.

Many people see a parallel between the early seals and Matthew 24, and I certainly agree. But Jesus said, concerning those verses, "the end is not yet" meaning, He had not yet begun speaking of "the end times." He was still in the church age in the verses that remind people of the seals.

When you understand John's Chronology, the Holy Spirit had him begin right when he lived, early church or 95 AD, then take the reader quickly through the church age (seals 1-5) and then to the start of judgment: seal 6.

If you really study 1 thes. 5, Paul shows us that his rapture event will come very close and just before the start of the Day of the Lord - which John shows us begins at the 6th seal.

Ok, I won't take your word for it as you suggest. I laid out how the 24 Elders are the Church and they are in heaven in Chapters 4-5.

John made it very clear that this Revelation was given to Yeshua by the Father, who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John. Timing.... while John was on the Island of Patmos, probably in exile during the reign of Domition. All in Chapter one. Hence, there is no way that John got the vision at the time of the ascension of Yeshua, as Yeshua Himself had not yet gotten it from the Father. Likewise, the angel that gave the vision to John had not yet gotten it from Yeshua.

Not sure what translation or hermeneutic you are using, but the ascension of Yeshua is not even referred to in Chapters 4-5. Yeshua (the lamb slain) is revealed as the only man worthy to take the scroll and His being handed the scroll with the 7 seals does occur, but the 24 Elders are already there at that event and the 24 Elders are the Church. Angels do not get white robes with crowns.

 

[iamlamad]

Does not john name mean gods grace or gods favor?....is not the church built on gods grace and gods favor?.. Yah Hannah or John could typify the church rapture before the opening of the first seal...

People can and do imagine everything in the book of Revelation. But good, solid exegesis tells us that was JOHN called up to heaven. Why? So we would have this book to read!

 

[iamlamad]

Ok, I won't take your word for it as you suggest. I laid out how the 24 Elders are the Church and they are in heaven in Chapters 4-5.

John made it very clear that this Revelation was given to Yeshua by the Father, who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John. Timing.... while John was on the Island of Patmos, probably in exile during the reign of Domition. All in Chapter one. Hence, there is no way that John got the vision at the time of the ascension of Yeshua, as Yeshua Himself had not yet gotten it from the Father. Likewise, the angel that gave the vision to John had not yet gotten it from Yeshua.

Not sure what translation or hermeneutic you are using, but the ascension of Yeshua is not even referred to in Chapters 4-5. His being handed the scroll with the 7 seals does occur, but the 24 Elders are already there at that event and the 24 Elders are the Church. Angels do not get white robes with crowns.

Neither you nor anyone else can KNOW that the 24 elders represent the church. The truth is, John does not tell us. My guess is, they are Old Testament saints, the very saints Jesus raised when He rose up. In any case, using them as an argument for the timing of the rapture is very weak indeed.

Hence, there is no way that John got the vision at the time of the ascension of Yeshua, as Yeshua Himself had not yet gotten it from the Father. Likewise, the angel that gave the vision to John had not yet gotten it from Yeshua. This is another very weak argument! A vision can be past, present or future. This part of John's vision was history to John. Same with 12:1-5: verses about Jesus' birth. You do realize, God has the power to show visions of the past?

John probably received this vision around 95 AD. That is what tradition tells us. It was LONG past the time Jesus had ascended. Yet, His ascension is exactly what John saw - no, His arrival in the throne room is what John saw. It was a vision of the past for John. I think you need to read these two chapters again! CAn you explain why NO MAN was found in that first search John watched that ended in failure?
Can you explain why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father? Stephen SAW Him there years before.
Can you explain why the Holy Spirit in there in the throne room in chapter 4, but is sent down the instant Jesus arrives in the throne room? Isn't that exactly what Jesus said He would do? These two chapters show us TIMING and the movement of time.

 

[Copperhead]

You are simply mistaken. You cannot skip over the context of the first seals and hope to have it right.
Do this: use a search engine on a bible software and see the first use of "wrath" in Revelation. Does it make sense that the first use of Wrath just might be where God begins His wrath?
If you imagine seal 1 is His wrath, do you imagine God is angry with the new and infant church? Do you imagine God caused the martyrs or is angry with them for allowing themselves to be put to death?

Not, the truth is, there is no wrath involved with the first seals. Seal one is the church sent out around 32 AD with the Gospel - you know - the great commission.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. But God limited these three (Red, Black and Pale) to 1/4 of the earth for their theater of operation. Satan could not hold the Gospel in, and it spread around the world!

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait a long time for judgment: until the full number of martyrs will have come in and killed as they were - as church age martyrs. In other words, they would have to wait for the pretrib rapture to end the church age!

What comes next? Of course the 6th seal. But Paul's rapture will take place just before that 6th seal is opened. The church age ends, the full number of martyrs will have come in, and judgment begins.

Your assumption of error on my part reveals the error on your part. You are asserting that the 1st seal is during the time of the Church Age. That period is over prior to Chapter 6, as the Church, being represented by the 24 Elders is already in Heaven when the scroll with the 7 seals is handed to Yeshua for Him to open. I outlined how David divided the priests into 24 divisions (1 Chronicles 23), how both John said the believers are kings and priests, and Peter make the claim that the believers are a royal priesthood, the 24 Elders also claim that they are the kings and priests (Chapter 5) that John referred to in Chapter one, therefore claiming they are the Church.

 

[Copperhead]

Neither you nor anyone else can KNOW that the 14 elders represent the church. The truth is, John does not tell us. My guess is, they are Old Testament saints, the very saints Jesus raised when He rose up. In any case, using them as an argument for the timing of the rapture is very weak indeed.

I do not claim that the 24 Elders (not 14) are the Church.... THEY DO!!!! John makes it very clear in chapter 1 that the believers are Kings and Priests. In Chapter 5, the Elders claim they are those Kings and Priests! Peter substantiates what John wrote by saying that the believers are a "royal priesthood". That is saying essentially the same thing... kings and priests. Only kings are royalty.

Per John...

Revelation 1:5-6 (NKJV) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Per Peter.....

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Per the 24 Elders themselves......

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

And who gets to reign on the earth with Yeshua? Well, let's let Yeshua tell us....

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

Angels are not redeemed by the Blood of Yeshua! Angels are not a royal priesthood. Angels do not get crowns. Angels do not rule with Yeshua. The Elders themselves make the claim that they are the Church, that they are the royal priesthood, and that they will rule with Yeshua. I do not need to invent anything here. They do all the explaining who they are.

And they are making these claims BEFORE Yeshua even opens the 1st seal. They are there when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals on it. These 24 Elders are identifying themselves as the Church.

The OT saints who were resurrected are not the Ekklesia, or Church. That entity was not conceived until the Holy Spirit came upon the believers at Shavuot, or Pentacost, 7 weeks after Yeshua's resurrection. The OT saints who were resurrected were already off the earth by then. They are not the kings and priests or overcomers that John, Peter, and Yeshua reference, and subsequently, are not the 24 Elders of Revelation. And the 24 Elders themselves claim they are from every tribe, tongue and nation. That is not the OT saints which were primarily Hebrew.

 

[dfw69]

People can and do imagine everything in the book of Revelation. But good, solid exegesis tells us that was JOHN called up to heaven. Why? So we would have this book to read!

I agree ...but don't count out the possibility that john could typify the rapture.... we will be raptured as promised....like Jesus who ascended to heaven ...he too typifies the body ascending to heaven...we are children of promise...we are children of faith...

 

[Choose Wisely]

I hate to be so blunt, but you really have no idea where the days of GT are found in Revelation. First John gives us chapter 12 about the Dragon, for we know the Beast will be driven by the Dragon.

I see that you failed to address my point about chapter 12 proving that Revelation is not in order.

Then in chapter 13 the Beast is introduced, because He will be revealed as the Beast in chapter 11 when He enters the temple.

So now your telling me that Revelation is not in order. Interesting.

You can put Matthew 24 after the 6th seal - as if they go together - but you are caught: they do NOT go together, for they will come over 7 years apart.
What John is telling us is that the sign for His coming (Rev. 9 coming) will be TOTAL DARKNESS! No light from the sun. No light from the moon. No light from the stars. It will be BLACK.
On the other hand, at the 6th seal, the moon will be reflecting light - a red colored light.
What you have missed: these are TWO DIFFERENT signs for two different purposes. The red moon sign is for the Day of the Lord, while total darkness is the sign for His coming in power and splendor on white horses.

Let me see if I have this right....Both Matthew 24 and Rev 6 have a darkened sun and stars falling from heaven. And they also both have a coming of Jesus.
But my problem is that Rev 6 says that the moon is as blood and Matt 24 says the moon does not give it's light. Well I guess that's quite a problem. So if I had a flashlight with a very low battery ..........the flashlight would not be giving it's light and yet you could see light on the flashlight. So there goes my little problem.

Now I should point out since Revelation is in order in your mind you have a coming of Jesus in Rev 6. You have a coming of Jesus in Rev 14. And you have a coming of Jesus in Rev 19 which you think is Matt 24.
Can you tell me what these comings are about?

 

[Copperhead]

I will muddy the waters a little further. Revelation 12, we have the woman giving birth. Many had asserted that she is giving birth to the Messiah. There might be a little twist on that.

The woman is indeed Israel. And the child is the Messiah, but when was the Messiah forcibly caught up (harpazo) at His birth? None that I recall. So what might be in view here? Well, along with the Church being the Bride of Christ, we are also called the body of Christ. The Church was not born at Pentecost, it was conceived when the Holy Spirit came upon those in Jerusalem. The Church has been growing and developing for the centuries following. I would contend that the child being born in Revelation 12 is the Church being birthed and caught up. Surprisingly, the Tanakh (OT) lends a lot of support for that assertion in many passages by showing how Israel gives birth as soon as it's labor pains begin. The Church was conceived in Jerusalem and will be birthed and removed at the start of the birth pains of Israel which is the Time of Jacob's Trouble or Great Tribulation.

Now, that makes things a little more sticky, as opposed to the idea that Revelation is completely in chronological order, I would contend that we have both going on.... a chronological order with pauses to reflect back on events and add clarity. Kinda like an overlay. The Church is indeed removed before or at the start of the tribulation period, or time of Jacob's Trouble as Jeremiah called it. Revelation 12 is a pause that add meaning to the event.

Just something else to cause angst for those who disagree with a pre-trib position.

 

[Choose Wisely]

People can and do imagine everything in the book of Revelation. But good, solid exegesis tells us that was JOHN called up to heaven. Why? So we would have this book to read!

You can have all the good, solid exegesis you want.......but God says that you are not going to know when he is coming. He will come in an hour that you think not.

The fact that the Church is not spoken of again after Revelation 3 is a fact that should be considered.

 

[Copperhead]

Along with the assertion that the Church is no longer mentioned after Revelation 3, I would expound on that the Church is at the throne of God prior to the 1st seal being opened, even before the scroll is handed to Yeshua.

The 24 Elders. David divided the priests into 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24. That set the precedence. Peter says that we are a royal priesthood. The Elders in Revelation 5 claim to be redeemed from all the nations, are kings and priests (aka royal priesthood as per Peter), and will rule with Yeshua as per Revelation 2:26-27. They cover all the bases in the song they sing in Revelation 5, so it is valid to assume they are the Church.

 

[Choose Wisely]

1 Thes. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

We don't get overtaken, we get raptured. It is a bad thing that happens to those in darkness, but a good thing that happens to those living in Christ. We may not have even a tiny hint anything is about to happen, but SUDDENLY, with no warning (Paul is talking about a sudden event) the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves. And just as suddenly those who are alive and in Christ will fly up with them, our bodies changed in an instant of time. And just as suddenly, the "Sudden Destruction" earthquake catches all those left behind. They cannot escape, for it will be a world wide earthquake.

I never said we get overtaken. I quoted a verse that says we are not in darkness so the Day of the Lord will NOT overtake the believers as a thief. To clarify further the rapture you see prior to the day of the Lord is the rapture of the 12 tribes which is proven by the 144,000 first fruits, 12,000 from each tribe. The Church is gone before the tribulation begins. The opening of the seals is the beginning of the tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation ......another rapture and the Day of the Lord begins, starting with the Wrath of God.

 

[iamlamad]

I never said we get overtaken. I quoted a verse that says we are not in darkness so the Day of the Lord will NOT overtake the believers as a thief. To clarify further the rapture you see prior to the day of the Lord is the rapture of the 12 tribes which is proven by the 144,000 first fruits, 12,000 from each tribe. The Church is gone before the tribulation begins. The opening of the seals is the beginning of the tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation ......another rapture and the Day of the Lord begins, starting with the Wrath of God.

Sorry, but I am going for follow the text in Revelation, not your theories.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Sorry, but I am going for follow the text in Revelation, not your theories.

I missed the part where I wasn't following the text in Revelation. Please feel free to show what is going on here........since you say revelation is in chronological order. So what is this, the pre tribulation rapture, the second coming or something else?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[iamlamad]

I missed the part where I wasn't following the text in Revelation. Please feel free to show what is going on here........since you say revelation is in chronological order. So what is this, the pre tribulation rapture, the second coming or something else?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The rapture Paul wrote of has nothing to do with the 144,000 that will be sealed. They are all descendants of Jacob. Most of the church today is made up of Gentiles.
These verses in chapter 14 are EXTREMELY symbolic: God will not harvest people with a sickle! It is a picture of the harvest that will come at the end of the 70th week: both of the righteous and the unrighteous. And these verses have nothing to do with Paul's rapture.

If we look in chapter 7 at the huge crowd in the throne room, WHEN did they arrive? John did not see their arrival, but saw them already there. Note that this is the only time God said a number is so high it is too large to number. It will be all those who have died in Christ, generation after generation, from Christ's resurrection up to the time of the rapture: many many billions: too many to count. Not beyond God's ability, but He did not take the time. So John just wrote that the crowd was too large to number.

So if there are there in chapter 7, in the throne room, and they are the raptured church, WHEN were they raptured? Obviously, before chapter 7. I think Paul's description of the timeing of his rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal. So the rapture takes place, transporting all these believers in Christ up into the throne room, and John got to see them shortly after.

Meanwhile, in John's chronology, the 70th week will not begin until the 7th seal is opened. Therefore, Paul's gathering is pretrib. And therefore Christ will come TWICE more; first FOR His saints, and later, WITH His saints.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The rapture Paul wrote of has nothing to do with the 144,000 that will be sealed. They are all descendants of Jacob. Most of the church today is made up of Gentiles.

Correct.

These verses in chapter 14 are EXTREMELY symbolic: God will not harvest people with a sickle! It is a picture of the harvest that will come at the end of the 70th week: both of the righteous and the unrighteous. And these verses have nothing to do with Paul's rapture.

Exactly, it has nothing to do with the rapture of the church. It has to do with the 12 tribes as proven by the 1st fruits. This is the same harvest that we see in Rev 6.......when the wrath of God begins.
Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And this..............
Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If Revelation is in order like you say...........that's looks confusing. Can you make any sense out of that.......since you say Revelation is in order?

If we look in chapter 7 at the huge crowd in the throne room, WHEN did they arrive? John did not see their arrival, but saw them already there. Note that this is the only time God said a number is so high it is too large to number. It will be all those who have died in Christ, generation after generation, from Christ's resurrection up to the time of the rapture: many many billions: too many to count. Not beyond God's ability, but He did not take the time. So John just wrote that the crowd was too large to number.

Ok. That causes me no problems. Except I think it includes all those from the time of Adam.

So if there are there in chapter 7, in the throne room, and they are the raptured church, WHEN were they raptured?

More than the raptured Church. Includes all the righteous from Adams time. We see crowns cast in Rev 4. Church already in heaven. The fig tree has two crops, the breba crop and the main harvest.

Obviously, before chapter 7. I think Paul's description of the timeing of his rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal. So the rapture takes place, transporting all these believers in Christ up into the throne room, and John got to see them shortly after.

Obviously we see the wrath of God begin at the 6th seal and then a great multitude too large to count. We also see a harvest in Revelation 14 where non believers are cast into the wrath of God and believers being caught up to the clouds. So if the wrath of God starts at the 6 seal do those nonbelievers in Rev 14 escape the wrath of God until Rev 14?

Meanwhile, in John's chronology, the 70th week will not begin until the 7th seal is opened. Therefore, Paul's gathering is pretrib. And therefore Christ will come TWICE more; first FOR His saints, and later, WITH His saints.

Goodness.
The 70th week begins when the 1st seal is opened. The wrath of God begins at the 6th seal.

Paul's gathering is pretrib.......before the seals are opened and the rider on the white horse comes to power. The rapture is what enables the rider to come to power.

Again I ask, what is going on with harvest of Rev 14. If you say that Rev 6 is the pretrib rapture and we know that Rev 19 is the coming of Jesus when we come on white horses............YOU HAVE QUITE A PROBLEM.

Additionally if we can pinpoint his coming to the sign of His coming.......the sun darkened, the moon not giving its light and the stars falling from heaven.........how can he come as a thief to a believer? We are told that that day (the day of his wrath) will not take those believers unaware because they are not in darkness.

And yet the goodman will not know when He is coming. He is coming in an hour that you think not.

Man you've got lots of problems.

 

[Copperhead]

I am pretty sure that it is easy to delineate the removal of the righteous prior to the seals as opposed to the harvest of Revelation 14. And can be done in light of Matthew 25:31-46 where those of the nations are judged and it is determined from their treatment of Yeshua's physical brethren, the Hebrews, to whether they are worthy of entering the millennial kingdom or are to be cast into hell. Combine that passage with Matthew 7:21-23.

The righteous that were removed already were determined righteous thru trust in Yeshua and therefore are removed from the calamity coming on the earth. Only those determined unrighteous will not be caught up. They have 7 years to get their act together. Many will be the GT Saints mentioned that Satan overcomes.

There were Saints prior to the Church (Matthew 27) , and there will be Saints after the Church is removed. No conflict between a pre-trib removal of the righteous and the harvest of Revelation 14.

Revelation is like an overlay. I am showing my age now... back in the day, there were overhead projectors that one could project on a screen what one laid down on the platform of the projector One could use overlays, where part of the picture was on one sheet, then you laid down another sheet that had another part of the picture, and so on. Revelation fits a idea. Event do occur in chronological order, but different chapters are overlays that enhance the view of events transpiring. The events are in chronological order, but the chapters may not be. Many are like pauses to expound on events.

There are over 400 verses in The Revelation, and there is over 500 references to passages in the OT contained in them.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum did a pretty good listing of many of these....

http://www.johnsnotes.com/documents/OldTestamentReferencesintheBookofRevelation.pdf

 

[iamlamad]

Correct.

Exactly, it has nothing to do with the rapture of the church. It has to do with the 12 tribes as proven by the 1st fruits. This is the same harvest that we see in Rev 6.......when the wrath of God begins.
Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And this..............
Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If Revelation is in order like you say...........that's looks confusing. Can you make any sense out of that.......since you say Revelation is in order?


Ok. That causes me no problems. Except I think it includes all those from the time of Adam.

More than the raptured Church. Includes all the righteous from Adams time. We see crowns cast in Rev 4. Church already in heaven. The fig tree has two crops, the breba crop and the main harvest.


Obviously we see the wrath of God begin at the 6th seal and then a great multitude too large to count. We also see a harvest in Revelation 14 where non believers are cast into the wrath of God and believers being caught up to the clouds. So if the wrath of God starts at the 6 seal do those nonbelievers in Rev 14 escape the wrath of God until Rev 14?

Goodness.
The 70th week begins when the 1st seal is opened. The wrath of God begins at the 6th seal.

Paul's gathering is pretrib.......before the seals are opened and the rider on the white horse comes to power. The rapture is what enables the rider to come to power.

Again I ask, what is going on with harvest of Rev 14. If you say that Rev 6 is the pretrib rapture and we know that Rev 19 is the coming of Jesus when we come on white horses............YOU HAVE QUITE A PROBLEM.

Additionally if we can pinpoint his coming to the sign of His coming.......the sun darkened, the moon not giving its light and the stars falling from heaven.........how can he come as a thief to a believer? We are told that that day (the day of his wrath) will not take those believers unaware because they are not in darkness.

And yet the goodman will not know when He is coming. He is coming in an hour that you think not.

Man you've got lots of problems.

Anyone who puts verses in chapter 14 together with verses in chapter 6 AS IF to say they are talking about the same event is already off into error. I won't do that.

The problems are all on your side, NOT recognizing that He is coming TWO MORE times, first FOR His bride, and then WITH His bride.
YOU will have a problem trying to get into heaven for the marriage! I and all those raptured pretrib will already be there.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Anyone who puts verses in chapter 14 together with verses in chapter 6 AS IF to say they are talking about the same event is already off into error. I won't do that.

The problems are all on your side, NOT recognizing that He is coming TWO MORE times, first FOR His bride, and then WITH His bride.
YOU will have a problem trying to get into heaven for the marriage! I and all those raptured pretrib will already be there.

I notice that you failed again to say exactly what is going on in Rev 14. Jesus is clearly on a cloud and there is a harvest involved. So that is not the second coming. So what is Rev 14.

I already know that you don't have an answer, but will welcome any attempt you can make to explain.
We see a coming in Rev 6, Rev 14 and Rev 19. You say there are two comings and Revelation is in order. So again I ask.......What coming is Rev 14.

 

[iamlamad]

I notice that you failed again to say exactly what is going on in Rev 14. Jesus is clearly on a cloud and there is a harvest involved. So that is not the second coming. So what is Rev 14.

I already know that you don't have an answer, but will welcome any attempt you can make to explain.
We see a coming in Rev 6, Rev 14 and Rev 19. You say there are two comings and Revelation is in order. So again I ask.......What coming is Rev 14.

As I wrote previously, God has not, is not and will not harvest people with a sickle! This part of John's vision is very symbolic and prophetic: it is shown future events that will begin to take place. There will come a harvest of the righteous and a harvest of the wicket soon after chapter 14. We see the harvest of the wicked at the battle of Armageddon and of course the parable of the wheat and tares. I expect this parable will take place in Rev. 19 the moment Jesus descends to the battle.

As for the righteous harvest? Those that love Jesus but get beheaded are "harvested" because their spirits and souls will be escorted into heaven. And the resurrection and catching up of the Old Testament saints will take place at the 7th vial which will come on the last 24 hours of time of the 70th week - the "last day" as Jesus put it.

There will be a "coming" in chapter 6, as Paul's rapture takes place a moment before the 6th seal - but John did not see it and did not write of it. There is no "coming" in chapter 14. It is symbolic. He comes again the 3rd time as shown in Rev. 19. Your "coming" in chapter 14 is imaginary.

Please tell us your take on Rev. 14. I would call it the calm before the storm: the murder regime of the Beast and False prophet is about to begin.