Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[BABerean2]

But Rev 19 leads seamlessly into the defeat of the beast & false prophet, chaining of Satan, and Millennium

Only if you ignore 2 Timothy 4:1, and Matthew 25:31-46, and Revelation 11:18.

We have the judgment of both the living and the dead at His return.

Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no millennial mortals.

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[Douggg]

The physical State of Israel is not biblical Israel.

It was when God sent them into Assyrian and Babylonian captivity. And still is.

Dave, you have some flawed theology that since 1948, them holding your theology have been in denial.

 

[Dave L]

It was when God sent them into Assyrian and Babylonian captivity. And still is.

Dave, you have some flawed theology that since 1948, them holding your theology have been in denial.

Read Romans 11 carefully. God removed the unbelievers from Israel and will graft them back in only through faith in Christ. Today's State of Israel exists only because of their hatred and rejection of Christ. And have been cursed of God ever since. The rest of Israel accepted Christ and entered the New Covenant.

 

[Douggg]

Today's State of Israel exists only because of their hatred and rejection of Christ.

You have it completely mis-explained. The state of Israel, the Jews brought back into the land, is part of God's plan to bring them to Christ. The end times prophecies in the bible cannot take place without Israel being a nation and in the land again.

 

[DavidPT]

Only if you ignore 2 Timothy 4:1, and Matthew 25:31-46, and Revelation 11:18.

We have the judgment of both the living and the dead at His return.

Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no millennial mortals.

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One of my main issues with you in particular is not so much that you are Amil, but that you claim it's everyone else that are ignoring Scriptures, as if you yourself aren't.

You indicate----Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no millennial mortals.

That is if you ignore the following Scripture though.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is clearly meaning a time post the 2nd coming. No way are any of the above meaning the saved who have put on immortality at the last trump. The saved that put on immortality at the last trump can never be punished from that time forth, nor ever be threatened with punishment ever again for forever. What does that logically make these above in this passage if not mortals?

 

[DavidPT]

the "first resurrection" at onset of Millennium = "Christians && martyrs && beheaded"

such would include St. Paul, beheaded (as a Roman citizen) in about 65 AD...

how many other Christian martyrs were beheaded ?

St. Paul in 65 AD, Justin Martyr + 6 companions in 165 AD...

How many total? I think if people realized just how select a group get the "special treatment" in Rev 20:1-6 then they wouldn't try to "balloon" the 1st resurrection into some sort of general resurrection of the Righteous.

If I read Rev 20:1-6 correctly, not even St. Peter or St. James the Just are included in the 1st Resurrection... because they were crucified (upside down) and stoned (after surviving being thrown from the temple), not beheaded

It is not only those that were beheaded, it's also those that don't worship the beast.

 

[BABerean2]

One of my main issues with you in particular is not so much that you are Amil, but that you claim it's everyone else that are ignoring Scriptures, as if you yourself aren't.

You indicate----Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no millennial mortals.

That is if you ignore the following Scripture though.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is clearly meaning a time post the 2nd coming. No way are any of the above meaning the saved who have put on immortality at the last trump. The saved that put on immortality at the last trump can never be punished from that time forth, nor ever be threatened with punishment ever again for forever. What does that logically make these above in this passage if not mortals?

Like many others, you are taking the less clear vision of Zechariah, and ignoring the clearer texts of the New Testament to make your doctrine work.

Who is both the King and the tabernacle in verse 16, based on the New Testament?

There are two groups above.

Those faithful to the Lord and those who are not.

Those faithful to Christ will keep the feast of tabernacles forever, since He is the tabernacle.
He will tabernacle among us.

The others will be punished.

Do you think Jesus was wrong in Matthew 25:31-46?

Do you think Paul was wrong in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Do you think John recorded Revelation 11:18 incorrectly, when he said it was the time of the judgment of the dead?

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[Dave L]

You have it completely mis-explained. The state of Israel, the Jews brought back into the land, is part of God's plan to bring them to Christ. The end times prophecies in the bible cannot take place without Israel being a nation and in the land again.

Not so. For one they are not Biblical Jews. Jesus said they claim to be Jews and are lying. They are the synagogue of Satan.

“‘I know the distress you are suffering and your poverty (but you are rich). I also know the slander against you by those who call themselves Jews and really are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.” (Revelation 2:9)

Also, circumcision made one a Jew and member of Israel. Christ abolished circumcision on the cross forever removing the people to whom the physical promises applied. Today's State of Israel are gentiles who trod down Jerusalem until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

Abraham's seed is Jesus and those united to him in faith.

 

[jgr]

You have it completely mis-explained. The state of Israel, the Jews brought back into the land, is part of God's plan to bring them to Christ. The end times prophecies in the bible cannot take place without Israel being a nation and in the land again.

You're once again ignoring genetic ubiquity.

Genetically, there is no difference between the Jews and the rest of humanity. Israel is in all of us.

Genetics is not and never was a criterion for God's acceptance.

His criteria have only and always been faith and obedience.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901
https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

 

[DavidPT]

Not so. For one they are not Biblical Jews. Jesus said they claim to be Jews and are lying. They are the synagogue of Satan.

“‘I know the distress you are suffering and your poverty (but you are rich). I also know the slander against you by those who call themselves Jews and really are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.” (Revelation 2:9)

Jesus also said something similar in the following passage as well.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Why not interpret this part, too?-----I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. What is your interpretation of that? But if you have no interpretation of that part, why do you appear to have an interpretation of this part then?-----them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus also said something similar in the following passage as well.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Why not interpret this part, too?-----I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. What is your interpretation of that? But if you have no interpretation of that part, why do you appear to have an interpretation of this part then?-----them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie.

This is fine but you are missing the point. The point is there are no physical Jews today. If they claim to be, they are Satan worshipers.

 

[Riberra]

I have done the count.

There is no 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


The "mystery" of God is finished at the sounding of the 7th trump.

.

Your original argument written in a previous post -->1229 [1232] --- was that there is no 8 TH Trumpet IN THE BIBLE.

Obviously Matthew 24:29-31 talk about that 8Th Trumpet who will sound AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Are you arguing that the 7 Trumpets of Revelation are not 7 Trumpets plagues who will happen DURING THE TRIBULATION ?

Do you know what will be the FIRST ACTION THAT JESUS WILL DO AS SOON THAT HE WILL RECEIVE FULL POWER AND AUTHORITY AT THE 7 TH TRUMPET ?

Remember the context of the 7Th Trumpet
Do you believe that Jesus is the THIRD WOE announced by the 7 Th trumpet?

Revelation 11:14-15
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[DavidPT]

This is fine but you are missing the point. The point is there are no physical Jews today. If they claim to be, they are Satan worshipers.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.



Allow me to try and help you out here then. Read that passage in Revelation in light of Isaiah 60.

Isaiah 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Then read these verses in light of Revelation 21.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

[DavidPT]

Your original argument written in a previous post --- was that there is no 8 TH Trumpet IN THE BIBLE.

Obviously Matthew 24:29-31 talk about that 8Th Trumpet who will sound AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Are you arguing that the 7 Trumpets of Revelation are not 7 Trumpets plagues who will happen DURING THE TRIBULATION ?

Do you know what will be the FIRST ACTION THAT JESUS WILL DO AS SOON THAT HE WILL RECEIVE FULL POWER AND AUTHORITY AT THE 7 TH TRUMPET ?

I think the point is perhaps this. There are only 7 trumpets in Revelation. According to Paul there is also the last trump. Many of us then conclude the 7th trumpet and the last trump, these are one and the same.

 

[Riberra]

I think the point is perhaps this. There are only 7 trumpets in Revelation. According to Paul there is also the last trump. Many of us then conclude the 7th trumpet and the last trump, these are one and the same.

The 7 Trumpets of Revelation [Revelation 8 ...Revelation 9....Revelation 11:14-15]]are plagues who will happen before the 7 Vials of the Wrath of God [Revelation 16]

So ,The LAST TRUMP/The TRUMP OF GOD, THAT PAUL TALK ABOUT IS NOT THE 7 TH TRUMPET .

But a TRUMP that will sound AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS ...AND IS CITED IN MATTHEW 24:29-31

 

[DavidPT]

The 7 Trumpets of Revelation [Revelation 8 ...Revelation 9....Revelation 11:14-15]]are plagues who will happen before the 7 Vials of the Wrath of God [Revelation 16]

So ,The LAST TRUMP/The TRUMP OF GOD, THAT PAUL TALK ABOUT IS NOT THE 7 TH TRUMPET .

But a TRUMP that will sound AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS ...AND IS CITED IN MATTHEW 24:29-31

Per my understanding, right or wrong, the 7th trumpet leads to the unleashing of the 7 last vials of wrath. It is meaning after the GT, it is meaning during the following.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

These things above are after the GT, but prior to the physical 2nd coming.

 

[Riberra]

Do you think Jesus was wrong in Matthew 25:31-46?

At the Coming of Jesus there are only 2 who are cited to be cast ALIVE into the Lake Of Fire Revelation 19:20 -The Beast and the False Prophet -

The others [good or bad] who are not part of the First Resurrection Reward for the Saints Martyrs [Revelation 20:4-6] will be Judged at the Great White Throne Judgment 1,000 years later....Remember PETER tell us that the DAY OF THE LORD LAST 1,000 years.

 

[Riberra]

Per my understanding, right or wrong, the 7th trumpet leads to the unleashing of the 7 last vials of wrath.

In fact the 7TH TRUMPET IS THE THIRD WOE [Revelation 11:14-15] DURATION 42 MONTHS ..Who will effectively include the 7 Vials of the Wrath Of God[Revelation 16] upon those who will have taken the mark and who will worship the Beast and his Image.

The first action that Jesus will do when He Will receive full power and authority will be to cast Satan and his Angels out of Heaven...
Revelation 12:9-10..,12
9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. WOE for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.


Then Satan will give power to the Beast to continue during 42 Months Revelation 13:3-7 ...and in the last 6 months of the Reign of the Beast the 7 Vials of the Wrath of God [Revelation 16]will be poured out upon those who will have taken the mark and worshiped the Beast and his image . THUS EVENTS HAPPENING DURING THE TRIBULATION.

 

[Douggg]

Not so. For one they are not Biblical Jews. Jesus said they claim to be Jews and are lying. They are the synagogue of Satan.

Jesus did not say all Jews were of the synagogue of Satan. What was being said is that some Jews were doing Satan's work in opposing the gospel and Christians.

Also, circumcision made one a Jew and member of Israel. Christ abolished circumcision on the cross forever removing the people to whom the physical promises applied. Today's State of Israel are gentiles who trod down Jerusalem until the time of the gentiles are fulfilled.

That's a totally ridiculous claim.

 

[BABerean2]

At the Coming of Jesus there are only 2 who are cited to be cast ALIVE into the Lake Of Fire Revelation 19:20 -The Beast and the False Prophet -

The others [good or bad] who are not part of the First Resurrection Reward for the Saints Martyrs [Revelation 20:4-6] will be Judged at the Great White Throne Judgment 1,000 years later....Remember PETER tell us that the DAY OF THE LORD LAST 1,000 years.

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
Mat 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."



1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

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At the Coming of Jesus there are only 2 who are cited to be cast ALIVE into the Lake Of Fire Revelation 19:20 -The Beast and the False Prophet -