Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Biblewriter]

If you want to recreate the nations that no longer exist. Replace Christ's atonement with cattle sacrifices, and have a try at packing billions into Jerusalem once a year.....go for it. But there is no way you can Physically fulfill the ancient prophecies without the nations and conditions they spoke of.

All these nations still exist. they are simply masked by current political conditions. God has told us, in no uncertain terms, that He will bring this to pass. And it is nothing but unbelief to claim it cannot happen.

 

[Dave L]

All these nations still exist. they are simply masked by current political conditions. God has told us, in no uncertain terms, that He will bring this to pass. And it is nothing but unbelief to claim it cannot happen.

How about horses? And wood weaponry? Spears, etc?

 

[Biblewriter]

If God does not control the universe, who does? I think he is doing a great job. and would shudder if I were you for criticising him.

I most certainly did not critcize God. I pointed out that what you claimed was obviously incorrect. Our God is most certainly in control, and is guiding everything to his predetermined end. But He has explicitly told us that along the way the rebellion of mankind will be almost universal, and wickedness will prevail. How can this be, when He is on control?

"... in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8

 

[Biblewriter]

How about horses? And wood weaponry? Spears, etc?

This is nothing but the scoffing language of unbelief. There is a simple explanation for why men will go back to using such things. But I will not go into it here.

 

[Dave L]

I most certainly did not critcize God. I pointed out that what you claimed was obviously incorrect. Our God is most certainly in control, and is guiding everything to his predetermined end. But He has explicitly told us that along the way the rebellion of mankind will be almost universal, and wickedness will prevail. How can this be, when He is on control?

"... in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8

“You put all things under his control.” For when he put all things under his control, he left nothing outside of his control. At present we do not yet see all things under his control,” (Hebrews 2:8)

“but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he would experience death on behalf of everyone.” (Hebrews 2:9)

“So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it.So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear.” (Acts 2:30–33)

 

[Dave L]

This is nothing but the scoffing language of unbelief. There is a simple explanation for why men will go back to using such things. But I will not go into it here.

More doctrine base on the silence of scripture?

 

[Biblewriter]

More doctrine base on the silence of scripture?

No. Based on explicit statements of scripture. Something you do not accept, because these scriptures do not fit the interpretation you place upon the meanings of other scriptures.

 

[BABerean2]

They, along with Christ, rule over the nations with a rod of iron.

Based on Psalm 2, the Son does not correct the flawed pottery with the rod of Iron.
He destroys it.

.

 

[Dave L]

No. Based on explicit statements of scripture. Something you do not accept, because these scriptures do not fit the interpretation you place upon the meanings of other scriptures.

I think technology limits prophecies to a time period. And to turn spears into tanks abuses the text.

 

[Biblewriter]

Based on Psalm 2, the Son does not correct the flawed pottery with the rod of Iron.
He destroys it.

.

That is said of "the nations" (verse 8 NKJV) or "the heathen" (verse 8, KJV), not of Israel.

 

[Biblewriter]

I think technology limits prophecies to a time period. And to turn spears into tanks abuses the text.

I have more confidence in the absolutely reliable word of God, than in the opinion of an unbeliever.

 

[Dave L]

I have more confidence in the absolutely reliable word of God, than in the opinion of an unbeliever.

Are the nations really going to attack Israel for their cattle? With swords and spears? Don't you think these prophecies better fit the book of Esther where this sort of thing actually happened?

 

[DavidPT]

Replace Christ's atonement with cattle sacrifices, and have a try at packing billions into Jerusalem once a year.....go for it. But there is no way you can Physically fulfill the ancient prophecies without the nations, the primitive technology and conditions they spoke of.

First of all, the feast of tabernacles is the last of the fall feasts of Israel. Per the spring feasts, the ones Christ has already fulfilled, none of those involved cattle sacrifices in order for Christ to have fulfilled them. So neither will the feast of tabernacles involve any type of animal sacrificing in order to be fulfilled post the 2nd coming.

That aside, yet those things you mention in Zech 14 have to fit after the 2nd coming though. The text indicates it is after all the nations had gathered against Jerusalem to battle. And that those remaining of those nations, they have to come up to Jerusalem yearly, where I take Jerusalem in this context to be meaning the NJ myself. But that doesn't mean everyone on the planet outside of the NJ has to come there though. There is such a thing as delegates, which then doesn't require it involving every single person on the planet having to come up to Jerusalem. Of course though, pretty much the biggest majority of Premils are going to disagree with me about it being the NJ where they come to. But I have logical reasons why I conclude it's the NJ though. Such as----

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


At some point in time there is only going to be one Jerusalem, that being the NJ. The NJ is the only Jerusalem that could possibly fit verse 11, the fact this verse indicates it will be like this for forever more once this is fulfilled. And this same Jerusalem meant here in verse 11, it is the same Jerusalem, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[Biblewriter]

Are the nations really going to attack Israel for their cattle? With swords and spears? Don't you think these prophecies better fit the book of Esther where this sort of thing actually happened?

There can be zero question that a great many of the battle prophecies in the Old Testament have never been fulfilled. For they are filled with details that have unquestionably never happened. It would take many posts to detail just a few of these.

 

[Dave L]

First of all, the feast of tabernacles is the last of the fall feasts of Israel. Per the spring feasts, the ones Christ has already fulfilled, none of those involved cattle sacrifices in order for Christ to have fulfilled them. So neither will the feast of tabernacles involve any type of animal sacrificing in order to be fulfilled post the 2nd coming.

That aside, yet those things you mention in Zech 14 have to fit after the 2nd coming though. The text indicates it is after all the nations had gathered against Jerusalem to battle. And that those remaining of those nations, they have to come up to Jerusalem yearly, where I take Jerusalem in this context to be meaning the NJ myself. But that doesn't mean everyone on the planet outside of the NJ has to come there though. There is such a thing as delegates, which then doesn't require it involving every single person on the planet having to come up to Jerusalem. Of course though, pretty much the biggest majority of Premils are going to disagree with me about it being the NJ where they come to. But I have logical reasons why I conclude it's the NJ though. Such as----

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


At some point in time there is only going to be one Jerusalem, that being the NJ. The NJ is the only Jerusalem that could possibly fit verse 11, the fact this verse indicates it will be like this for forever more once this is fulfilled. And this same Jerusalem meant here in verse 11, it is the same Jerusalem, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Ezekiel mentions cattle sacrifices. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. And Paul (or the writer of Hebrews) speaks of heavenly Jerusalem as being the fulfillment of the prophecies.

“But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks of something better than Abel’s does.” (Hebrews 12:22–24)

 

[Dave L]

There can be zero question that a great many of the battle prophecies in the Old Testament have never been fulfilled. For they are filled with details that have unquestionably never happened. It would take many posts to detail just a few of these.

Is it possible you are blind to the fact they have been fulfilled?

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel mentions cattle sacrifices. Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. And Paul (or the writer of Hebrews) speaks of heavenly Jerusalem as being the fulfillment of the prophecies.

“But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks of something better than Abel’s does.” (Hebrews 12:22–24)

Unlike some other Premils though, I don't place the time of the temple per Ezekiel 40-48 post the 2nd coming. It couldn't possibly fit in that era of time. But some of Zechariah 14 can though, unless one wants to claim all nations have already battled against Jerusalem, then the Lord fighting against those nations, that this has already been fulfilled in history past.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Which then would have to apply to this as well, which is totally absurd that this prophecy has already been fulfilled. Zechariah 14:16-19 is clearly meaning after the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:12.

 

[Dave L]

Unlike some other Premils though, I don't place the time of the temple per Ezekiel 40-48 post the 2nd coming. It couldn't possibly fit in that era of time. But some of Zechariah 14 can though, unless one wants to claim all nations have already battled against Jerusalem, then the Lord fighting against those nations, that this has already been fulfilled in history past.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Which then would have to apply to this as well, which is totally absurd that this prophecy has already been fulfilled. Zechariah 14:16-19 is clearly meaning after the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:12.

Something that drastically affects your position is that in the New Covenant, Jesus IS Israel along with his body the church. And today's physical Israel is not the biblical Israel of the Old Testament.
If you can clear this hurtle in your thinking, all of the prophecies take on new meaning. They become symbols for the spiritual realities they represent.

 

[DavidPT]

Something that drastically affects your position is that in the New Covenant, Jesus IS Israel along with his body the church. And today's physical Israel is not the biblical Israel of the Old Testament.
If you can clear this hurtle in your thinking, all of the prophecies take on new meaning. They become symbols for the spiritual realities they represent.

Why would any Bible believer possibly conclude Zechariah 14:12 is not meaning in the literal sense? How can anyone possibly spiritualize that?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Given what we know from Ezekiel 38, as an example, how can the following not possibly equal their fate according to the above?

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Do you spiritualize these things as well? In the event you don't, you still can't envision an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone, leading to, their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth?

Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming since it is meaning post the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:12 before Zechariah 14:16-19 can even be fulfilled.

 

[DavidPT]

Something that drastically affects your position is that in the New Covenant, Jesus IS Israel along with his body the church. And today's physical Israel is not the biblical Israel of the Old Testament.
If you can clear this hurtle in your thinking, all of the prophecies take on new meaning. They become symbols for the spiritual realities they represent.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

How about this then? Can you envision---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them----leading to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:12? This perspective of course disproves Premil, yet, it in turn still proves Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming because Zechariah 14:16-19 can't be fulfilled until Revelation 20:9 and Zechariah 14:12 are fulfilled first.