Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Biblewriter]

They're here.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The Old Covenant has indeed passed away, has indeed perished. But the promises made during the time that covenant was in effect were not based on that covenant. So the claim that they have passed away is baseless.

God knew from the beginning everything He was going to do in the future. So during Old Testament days, He knew the Old Covenant would pass away. So if the promises made during that time were going to pass away with the covenant, then God was lying when He promised these things.

So your doctrine makes God out to be a liar.

 

[Dave L]

Apparently you have done just that then. So why not provide some examples of what this dividing of these things might look like?

Can you presently see the temple? Or Jesus seated on David's Throne? Or Israel as a kingdom of priests? All happening now?

 

[Davy]

Only saints appear in Rev 20. Not resurrected evil zombies as you suggest. “(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.).... (Revelation 20:5)

The following Scripture shows you bear false witness against God's Word:

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

 

[Dave L]

Yes, Revelation 20 only speaks of resurrected saints. But the Old Testament prophecies about this period very clearly show that the earth will at that time still be populated with humans who have never died, and who still marry, bear children, get sick, sin, and die, although their lives will be very long, and death appears to occur only as a punishment for sin.

No, only saints are in the kingdom. Flesh and blood cannot enter it. And this is a huge problem you must face.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus never, even once, even hinted at an idea that the Old Testament prophecies would not be literally fulfilled.

He did when he called himself the Temple he would raise in 3 days after destroying the brick and mortar version.

 

[Davy]

This takes place after the 1000 years.

Rev.22:14-15 takes place during Christ's Millennium reign. Verse 15 is showing the wicked existing outside the gates of the city wherein is the tree of life.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

The "For without" phrase is a continuation of the gates and city subject of the previous 14th verse. Just because those two verses were written in the 22nd Chapter does not necessarily mean they are for after the 1,000 years. Not all events written in Revelation are chronological, just as it often is in the OT Books of God's prophets.

I really have not much more to say to you, since in one of your posts you appear to deny the existence of the future Rev.20 "thousand years" altogether, and then in other of your posts you seem to admit it will happen in the future. Your confused responses suggest a doubtful nature.

 

[DavidPT]

Can you presently see the temple? Or Jesus seated on David's Throne? Or Israel as a kingdom of priests? All happening now?

The context of your post in question involved prophecies in the OT and then sorting through them and dividing them into 2 sections. I'm trying to be open minded here, so I was then hoping you might provide a few examples per some of these prophecies in the OT illustrating how you divided them, where you then indicated it makes sense.

Take Ezekiel 36 and 37 for example. Where does that fit in your dividing of these things?

 

[Biblewriter]

If you use the Restoration of Israel as a dividing line in all of the OT prophets, and ask yourself when might this or that happen? Might it happen before the restoration or after, you can assign the prophecies to their proper time slot. The key is in knowing when Israel's restoration happens.

Jesus says no one knows this but the Father. It does happen at the end of the world on the last day in the resurrection of the righteous dead (biblical Israel) and the Rapture. If it happens after this, it takes place in the New Heavens and earth. If before, it takes place in the New Covenant era.

Isaiah 66 makes it very clear that the restoration of Israel will take place after Messiah comes, after Armageddon. But many scriptures very clearly describe that restoration as a restoration of human beings just like those living today, who will continue to live in their natural bodies, and will continue to marry, bear children, and die, just as before, except that their lives will be prolonged, with death evidently rare, except as a punishment for sin.

The last third of Ezekiel, along with several other passages of scripture, also make it plain that at that time there will be a change in divinely ordered worship just as profound as the one instituted when the law of Moses was first given, and just as profound as the the one instituted when our Lord died on the cross. The temple in which this worship will be offered is described in great detail, and the sacrifices and ordinances to apply at that time are all clearly spelled out. These sacrifices and ordinances are distinctly different from those specified in the law of Moses. So this will not be a return to the old system. It will be a new system of worship, unlike either that sanctioned under the law of Moses or that sanctioned today.

When you deny that all this will indeed happen, just as God said, you are denying explicitly stated scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Rev.22:14-15 takes place during Christ's Millennium reign. Verse 15 is showing the wicked existing outside the gates of the city wherein is the tree of life.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

The "For without" phrase is a continuation of the gates and city subject of the previous 14th verse. Just because those two verses were written in the 22nd Chapter does not necessarily mean they are for after the 1,000 years. Not all events written in Revelation are chronological, just as it often is in the OT Books of God's prophets.

I really have not much more to say to you, since in one of your posts you appear to deny the existence of the future Rev.20 "thousand years" altogether, and then in other of your posts you seem to admit it will happen in the future. Your confused responses suggest a doubtful nature.

Because you insist on a physical kingdom, you create your own problems resulting in saints in Revelation 20 being ruled by a rod of iron. And apostatizing when God cuts Satan loose to rally them against the rest of the saints. All in glorified eternal bodies!

 

[Biblewriter]

He did when he called himself the Temple he would raise in 3 days after destroying the brick and mortar version.

This does not even so much as imply that the old promises had been cancelled.

 

[Davy]

After having read numerous posts by you on this forum, there is much I agree with you about. Unfortunately though, this wouldn't be one of them. According to Revelation 20:5 the rest of the dead stay dead during the thousand years. It says so right in the text. Once someone is resurrected though, they are no longer dead at that point. To be resurrected means to live again. Revelation 20:5 indicates they don't live again until the thousand years are finished.

Well, you're simply not understanding the way things will be after our Lord Jesus returns, because flesh death for all will be over after His coming. And not many even get to Isaiah 25 where Paul was pulling from in 1 Cor.15 about death being swallowed up.

 

[Biblewriter]

Because you insist on a physical kingdom, you create your own problems resulting in saints in Revelation 20 being ruled by a rod of iron. And apostatizing when God cuts Satan loose to rally them against the rest of the saints. All in glorified eternal bodies!

The saints do the ruling, under their glorious head, Christ. They, along with Christ, rule over the nations with a rod of iron.

 

[Dave L]

Isaiah 66 makes it very clear that the restoration of Israel will take place after Messiah comes, after Armageddon. But many scriptures very clearly describe that restoration as a restoration of human beings just like those living today, who will continue to live in their natural bodies, and will continue to marry, bear children, and die, just as before, except that their lives will be prolonged, with death evidently rare, except as a punishment for sin.

The last third of Ezekiel, along with several other passages of scripture, also make it plain that at that time there will be a change in divinely ordered worship just as profound as the one instituted when the law of Moses was first given, and just as profound as the the one instituted when our Lord died on the cross. The temple is described in great detail, and the sacrifices and ordinances to apply at that time are all clearly spelled out. These sacrifices and ordinances are distinctly different from those specified in the law of Moses. So this will not be a return to the old system. It will be a new system of worship, unlike either that sanctioned under the law of Moses or that sanctioned today.

When you deny that all this will indeed happen, just as God said, you are denying explicitly stated scripture.

The New Testament makes it clear that Israel's restoration IS the resurrection from the dead on earth's last day. The Resurrection IS the restoration.

 

[Davy]

Because you insist on a physical kingdom, you create your own problems resulting in saints in Revelation 20 being ruled by a rod of iron. And apostatizing when God cuts Satan loose to rally them against the rest of the saints. All in glorified eternal bodies!

What do I have to do with you, a denier of God's Holy Writ? If you cannot agree with what's written there in Revelation 20 about the existence of those "nations", how in the world will you ever be able to handle the events of the coming Millennium written in the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters?? You are your own paradox, one you've created by listening to doctrines of men instead of God's Word as written.

 

[Dave L]

The saints do the ruling, under their glorious head, Christ. They, along with Christ, rule over the nations with a rod of iron.

Is Jesus God? If so, he presently rules the nations with a rod of iron. Installing rulers and removing them. And we are seated in heavenly places with him as his body.

“and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

 

[Biblewriter]

The New Testament makes it clear that Israel's restoration IS the resurrection from the dead on earth's last day. The Resurrection IS the restoration.

A multitude of Old Testament scriptures, which were also given by the same Holy Spirit that gave the New testament, make it exceedingly clear that this is simply, totally, and completely, incorrect.

According to a great many explicitly states scriptures, the restoration of Israel will be a restoration of humans who have never died, who will be physically brought back to their ancient homeland, settled there, and restored in their hearts to a pure and honest faith in Christ, their great Messiah.

The scriptures graphically detail five separate battles or campaigns that will be fought after Messiah comes, and before the kingdom is established. These are traced in detail in my thread:

What Happens When Messiah Comes http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/

 

[Davy]

So far here... the existence of a future Millennial reign by Jesus Christ has been Biblically proven.

Afterall, the mention of His "thousand years" reign in Revelation 20 is declared literally, and not in any form of an allegory or parable. Other Scripture supports that same idea also (1 Cor.15:23-28; 1 Cor.5:5; Psalms 2; etc.).

Even Revelation 2:25-27 is specific that His elect will rule over the nations with the rod of iron He gives them.

Even Psalms 2 declares Jesus will break the nations with the rod of iron in that Millennial reign, and the Hebrew for that means to literally spoil them. That certainly does not reveal a time of the new heavens and new earth of God's future Kingdom in final. It reveals the existence of the "thousand years" of Rev.20 being a literal reign by Jesus prior to the new heavens and a new earth timing, which all wickedness by then will be destroyed, including the devil.

 

[Dave L]

What do I have to do with you, a denier of God's Holy Writ? If you cannot agree with what's written there in Revelation 20 about the existence of those "nations", how in the world will you ever be able to handle the events of the coming Millennium written in the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters?? You are your own paradox, one you've created by listening to doctrines of men instead of God's Word as written.

If you want to recreate the nations that no longer exist. Replace Christ's atonement with cattle sacrifices, and have a try at packing billions into Jerusalem once a year.....go for it. But there is no way you can Physically fulfill the ancient prophecies without the nations, the primitive technology and conditions they spoke of.

 

[Biblewriter]

Is Jesus God? If so, he presently rules the nations with a rod of iron. Installing rulers and removing them. And we are seated in heavenly places with him as his body.

“and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

If God were presently ruling the nations with a rod of iron, He would be doing a pretty bad job of it. And God never dies a bad job of anything. When He rises to rule with a rod of Iron, resistance will be impossible. You are simply flailing at straws like a drowning man, desperately seeking some way to avoid admitting that you are making God out to be a liar.

 

[Dave L]

If God were presently ruling the nations with a rod of iron, He would be doing a pretty bad job of it. And God never dies a bad job of anything. When He rises to rule with a rod of Iron, resistance will be impossible. You are simply flailing at straws like a drowning man, desperately seeking some way to avoid admitting that you are making God out to be a liar.

If God does not control the universe, who does? I think he is doing a great job. and would shudder if I were you for criticising him.