Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[LittleLambofJesus]

But the Romans were not Jesus's people.

Pilate had it placed on the cross...

John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

And how did the corrupt murderous Jewish rulers respond?

21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, 'The King of the Jews'; but that He said, I am King of the Jews.
22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

This is what they had said earlier:

15 But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!”
Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?”
The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!” [Revelation 6:6, 15]

Then 40 yrs later:

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
*snip*
The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover...........

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks:
'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

 

[Davy]

This is not true. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. And the world to come has no room for a carnal physical millennium where sin and death continue. His kingdom is forever, not just 1000 years.

That idea is irrelevant, since God's Word declares Jesus will inherit the throne of His father David.

Luke 1:32-33
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Matt 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
KJV

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

These above Scriptures brethren, ensure the Communists cannot change Christianity into a Social Religion as they long ago proposed they would try to do. Jesus will have a literal physical kingdom here on earth in the world to come, ruling over Israel. And it's easy to see that has yet to occur on earth today, so those who want to confuse that point are trying to change one of the anchor points of Bible Christianity.

 

[seventysevens]

Is America the same nation as those that immigrated to it?

If you move to live in another country does that change the ethnic heritage of who you were born as ?

Me personally? Probably, not. But my descendants over 2500 years, absolutely it does.

United States of America has only existed for a little more than 200 years , America technically has no ethnicity of it's own , cept the Native American Indian , America is filled with ethnic groups from around the world and are labeled as such , as in African- American , German-American etc etc ,

it is not American-African , American-German etc ,
There are no descendants over 2500 years that moved to America , the oldest they could be is as old as the country and no one has lived that long since the country began , People of OTHER ethic groups that date back 2500 years may have had
descendants of descendants through many multiples of generations that decided to move to America but that does not change their ethnicity from who they were born , just as a Chinese person that is born and raised in America is called a Chinese-American , not a American -Chinese because their true ethnicity is of Chinese genetics .

 

[DavidPT]

Until you provide direct support from scripture for a gap in the 70 weeks and a pre-trib rapture people are wasting their time with you.

There is no support for a Pretrib rapture, but there is support for a gap from Scripture. But I suspect you are too closed-minded about it to even consider it.

The first thing one needs to ask, is a gap even logical? Can there be a gap of 2000 years and still add up to 70 weeks in total when all is said and done? And if it is at least logical, that means the interpretation is possible.

Though I fully realize you are not about to change your mind about these things, at least allow me to provide an analogy demonstrating that it is not illogical for there to be a 2000 years gap between the 69th and 70th week, and then still end up with 70 weeks total when all is said and done.

A man commits a crime. The man then goes before a judge and is sentenced for this crime. The judge has determined 10 days in the county jail. But since this man has a family to support via a Monday thru Friday full time job, the judge then decides to let the man serve his sentence by spending Saturday and Sunday in jail for 5 weeks straight.

During the week then, Monday through Friday, are any of these 10 days still being counted? Of course not. If this man does the weekends in jail for 5 weeks, does or does not that fulfill the 10 days determined against him? Doesn't this analogy then show that there can be a gap in the 70 weeks, and that during the gap none of the 70 weeks are being counted? And once the gap is over, thus the 70 weeks continue until completion, it still adds up to exactly 70 weeks just like the prophecy said it would, regardless?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.

The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.

The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.

Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.

But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.

Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

So which eschatological view do you hold to?
Just so I can get an idea of where you are coming from and going with this......

 

[seventysevens]

You are the one in search of justification for your theories.

Wrong again , the only search here is to find when you will ever provide any real explanation of scripture that you suppose that know , throughout the entire thread the only thing that you have done is show denial of scripture , it doesm't matter who gives it or how in depth they go to prove it to you , you simply deny anything you don't like without any evidence at all , the best you have is to make supposition of what you prefer , not any actual evidence- not even an explanation of how you arrive at the misunderstandings that you have - you only see things in how you prefer them to be and not how they really are

 

[Davy]

The resurrection of the wicked happens AFTER the 1000 years, not before.
“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. (Revelation 20:5)

You have Christ ruling over saints in glorified bodies with a rod of iron. And Satan deceiving them and causing them to attack the rest of the saints towards the close of the 1000 years.

You also have a "Night of the Living Dead" situation taking place in heaven instead of hell where the resurrected wicked belong according to all of scripture.

Well, I've already shown Rev.20:5 is not pointing to a resurrection from flesh death, but a resurrection from a liable to die soul condition while alive in a body of incorruption.

John 5:28-29, which you still keep denying, reveals the "resurrection of damnation" happens also on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. So the Rev.20:5 dead not living again until... has another meaning you've missed, and many with you have missed.

Many brethren have made the mistake of assuming Paul was speaking only of the Church being given incorruptible bodies on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. He was pulling from Isaiah 25 about death swallowed up in victory, which points to God ending the idea of flesh bodies in that world to come. At Christ's return, the time of flesh human bodies will be over. All will manifest in incorruptible bodies, including the wicked. That's why it's called the "resurrection of damnation" by Jesus for the wicked (John 5:29).

 

[jgr]

But the Romans were not Jesus's people.

I described, with OT precedents, how they were His people for the purposes of inflicting judgement and punishment.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

JWs do a fine job of making scripture fit their agenda. And this is the key to understanding your position. The idea is however dropping all of your theories and conjectures and let scripture interpret scripture. But you have two big holes with nothing in them. And you build your case around them.

Still you have no evidences and no understanding and nothing but denial

You are the one in search of justification for your theories. And no justification from scripture exists. Only silence. Where's the gap proof? Where's the pre-trib rapture proof?

Wrong again , the only search here is to find when you will ever provide any real explanation of scripture that you suppose that know , throughout the entire thread the only thing that you have done is show denial of scripture , it doesm't matter who gives it or how in depth they go to prove it to you , you simply deny anything you don't like without any evidence at all , the best you have is to make supposition of what you prefer , not any actual evidence- not even an explanation of how you arrive at the misunderstandings that you have - you only see things in how you prefer them to be and not how they really are

You said it better than I could.......Good post

 

[Davy]

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ” (Revelation 20:5)

“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:6)

Yeah, and you're interpreting that according to a tradition of men, wrongly applying the concept of the death of this present world... when that is of the world to come when in the future the ONLY type of death remaining will be the "second death".

It should be easy to understand about coming to Jesus Christ during this present world and our soul/spirit being "born again", becoming "a new creature" in Christ Jesus. Our Lord Jesus even showed the difference in this with those who refuse Him being full of dead men's bones inside (Matt.23:27), pointing to their soul condition of not being born again.

That condition continues for the wicked during Christ's future Millennium reign. That is the "dead" of Revelation 20:5. They are not still literally in graves needing to be raised from the dead. The raising they will still need is coming to Jesus and believing on Him, and being joined with the "first resurrection". That will happen for those during the Millennium that come to Jesus, as their names will be found in the book at the end of the Millennium during the great white throne Judgment. That's why the books are opened, again at the end, and that's another proof of yet another resurrection of the just at the very end of the 1,000 years. Until that happens, with those who come to Jesus out of the wicked group, their soul remains in a liable to perish condition.

 

[Davy]

You said it better than I could.......Good post

If you guy's conclusion is that there are no gap timelines in God's Word, then that certainly is not true at all.

In Luke 4, Jesus read from Isaiah 61:1-2, but He didn't read the last phrase of the 2nd verse but instead stopped there and closed the Book. He said only what He read was then fulfilled in their ears at that time. The part He didn't read is about the day of vengeance that is to occur on the day of His 2nd coming. And it's been how long now since His 1st coming? Over 2,000 years already.

 

[Dave L]

Yeah, and you're interpreting that according to a tradition of men, wrongly applying the concept of the death of this present world... when that is of the world to come when in the future the ONLY type of death remaining will be the "second death".

It should be easy to understand about coming to Jesus Christ during this present world and our soul/spirit being "born again", becoming "a new creature" in Christ Jesus. Our Lord Jesus even showed the difference in this with those who refuse Him being full of dead men's bones inside (Matt.23:27), pointing to their soul condition of not being born again.

That condition continues for the wicked during Christ's future Millennium reign. That is the "dead" of Revelation 20:5. They are not still literally in graves needing to be raised from the dead. The raising they will still need is coming to Jesus and believing on Him, and being joined with the "first resurrection". That will happen for those during the Millennium that come to Jesus, as their names will be found in the book at the end of the Millennium during the great white throne Judgment. That's why the books are opened, again at the end, and that's another proof of yet another resurrection of the just at the very end of the 1,000 years. Until that happens, with those who come to Jesus out of the wicked group, their soul remains in a liable to perish condition.

You still end up with glorified saints being smashed into submission with a rod of iron, only to attack the rest of the saints in glorified bodies when Satan is loosed.

 

[Dave L]

Wrong again , the only search here is to find when you will ever provide any real explanation of scripture that you suppose that know , throughout the entire thread the only thing that you have done is show denial of scripture , it doesm't matter who gives it or how in depth they go to prove it to you , you simply deny anything you don't like without any evidence at all , the best you have is to make supposition of what you prefer , not any actual evidence- not even an explanation of how you arrive at the misunderstandings that you have - you only see things in how you prefer them to be and not how they really are

Your entire end time scenario has no direct support from scripture. You base it on ideas scripture is totally unaware of.

 

[Biblewriter]

It is a fact that there is no nation named by Meshech, tubal, Ammon, or Hittite today. 2500 years of mixing races and cultures along with mass migrations would would genetically diversify the tribal nations that existed during the time of Ezekiel.

You are forgetting that when the modern, political nation of Yugolsavia collapsed, the old, natural, nations immediately sprang up. They wee there all the time, simply masked under modern political names. And every nation mentioned in end time prophecy is still there, even if its modern identity has been masked by current politics.

 

[Dave L]

So which eschatological view do you hold to?
Just so I can get an idea of where you are coming from and going with this......

All physical kingdom theories are wrong. The kingdom is spiritual.

 

[Davy]

You still end up with glorified saints being smashed into submission with a rod of iron, only to attack the rest of the saints in glorified bodies when Satan is loosed.

Don't know where or who you got that idea from, but I've already debunked it several posts ago. If Christ's saints are to reign with Him, and Scripture says they will, then they will not... being beating each other with Jesus' "rod of iron" He will given them to help Him reign with. They are to reign over the "nations" like the Scripture says. And those are the same "nations" that Satan is loosed to go tempt at the end of the 1,000 years. It's then easy to know those "nations" represent the unsaved, not Christ's saints.

 

[Davy]

Your entire end time scenario has no direct support from scripture. You base it on ideas scripture is totally unaware of.

It's actually the opposite. Your idea comes from outside the Bible Scriptures. If you had any proof of what you say, then you would have at least been able to quote the relevant Scriptures as I have done in my posts.

 

[Biblewriter]

What Jesus said here places the resurrection of damnation on the day of His coming, which is at the start... of His future Millennium reign:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


One of the requirements of proper Bible study is to make sure that all relevant Scripture is included before trying to establish a doctrine from God's Word. Because Jesus said that, it means the idea of the 'dead' in Revelation 20 doesn't mean still being literally in the grave in that future time, as I explained already from Scripture.

This is gross distortion of scripture. The scripture you quoted does not say that the righteous and the wicked dead rise at the same time. It only says that a time is coming, in which both will happen. Revelation 20 very explicitly says that these two resurrections take place at vastly different times. This is true whether the thousand years is literal or only figurative of a long time. As you said, "One of the requirements of proper Bible study is to make sure that all relevant Scripture is included before trying to establish a doctrine from God's Word." You need to take your own advice.

 

[Davy]

All physical kingdom theories are wrong. The kingdom is spiritual.

Scripture support???

 

[Dave L]

Don't know where or who you got that idea from, but I've already debunked it several posts ago. If Christ's saints are to reign with Him, and Scripture says they will, then they will not... being beating each other with Jesus' "rod of iron" He will given them to help Him reign with. They are to reign over the "nations" like the Scripture says. And those are the same "nations" that Satan is loosed to go tempt at the end of the 1,000 years. It's then easy to know those "nations" represent the unsaved, not Christ's saints.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom = Satan has only the glorified saints to deceive and manipulate after being loosed.