LDS What happens to ex-Mormon men?

[Jane_Doe]

I usually don't jump in these things, but I feel like she is just showing Christians what dogma the LDS church teaches, in light and in secret. She creates threads all the time about the LDS, threads that Mormons are welcome to come in and debate with her. She's ex LDS.
So it's not directed towards ex lds men at all.

Vast majority of "LDS" tagged threads on this subforum actually teach misinformation about LDS beliefs. For example in this thread, the verse referenced is not talking about any random ex-LDS man who just don't show up to church, or even those that join another church, or even those who just become random atheist. Rather it's talking about those who completely and utterly abandon Christ in line with Matthew 12:31.

I agree. And on several topics the Mormon scriptures use very harsh words against Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants

Again, misinformation with quotes taken out of context (textually and conceptually). If @CodyFaith wishes for any clarification on ACTUAL Mormon beliefs, feel free to ask.

 

[DamianWarS]

Doctrine and Covenants 84
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84?lang=eng

View attachment 233566

Edited to add bold for emphasis.

"...which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant..."

seems to be some logic issues here. how can you break and unbreakable covenant?

 

[Jane_Doe]

"...which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant..."

seems to be some logic issues here. how can you break and unbreakable covenant?

God's never breaks his covenant and His power never falters.
A man, on the other hand can break his covenant.

 

[DamianWarS]

God's never breaks his covenant and His power never falters.
A man, on the other hand can break his covenant.

the quote is:
"40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come."

who is the "he" in "which he cannot break"? to me it seems to be the aforementioned "all those who receive the priesthood" and not "my Father". Should not the pronoun be capitalized if it revered to "my Father"? Also can man "move" something declared that it cannot be moved?

The quote seems to speak to the fact that the covenant cannot be broken and cannot be moved. So the language of "But whoso breaketh this covenant..." is odd and misplaced. It should read "whoso dishonours the covenant is still under the it and so because of his dishonouring actions shall not have forgiveness of sins..." but don't say you can't break it then give instructions to those who do break it. It's like saying... "look at this rock, it is unbreakable, but whoever breaks it will be cursed"

 

[Jane_Doe]

the quote is:
"40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come."

who is the "he" in "which he cannot break"? to me it seems to be the aforementioned "all those who receive the priesthood" and not "my Father". Should not the pronoun be capitalized if it revered to "my Father"? Also can man "move" something declared that it cannot be moved?

The quote seems to speak to the fact that the covenant cannot be broken and cannot be moved. So the language of "But whoso breaketh this covenant..." is odd and misplaced. It should read "whoso dishonours the covenant is still under the it and so because of his dishonouring actions shall not have forgiveness of sins..." but don't say you can't break it then give instructions to those who do break it. It's like saying... "look at this rock, it is unbreakable, but whoever breaks it will be cursed"

God's power cannot break: his power is the rock that cannot be moved.
A man of course can choose to get off the rock and go hang out on sandy ground. That doesn't make the rock weak, but show's the man's foolishness.

 

[RoseCrystal]

One could ask the same question of Protestant men, or Catholic men, or Orthodox men, etc.

Honestly, such things are super hard to quantify.

The LDS scripture I was referring to does read like a threat, if a Catholic or a Protestant or an Orthodox man wishes to leave their faith there is no scripture that I know of within those groups threatening them with an eternity of un-forgiviness for leaving (to be clear we are not talking about leaving Christianity altogether here, just a group within it).

This scripture in the D&C is LDS specific, saying that any man who receives the LDS priesthood and then turns away from it (i.e leaves the LDS faith for good) is doomed for eternity to never receive any forgiveness. A teaching such as this can be very damaging.

So I respectfully disagree with your argument on this. I really don't think it is even close to the same thing.

Doctrine and Covenants 84
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84?lang=eng

 

[Jane_Doe]

The LDS scripture I was referring to does read like a threat, if a Catholic or a Protestant or an Orthodox man wishes to leave their faith there is no scripture that I know of within those groups threatening them with an eternity of un-forgiviness

Does your Bible not read:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. ( Matthew 12:31)

for leaving (to be clear we are not talking about leaving Christianity altogether here, just a group within it).

This scripture in the D&C is LDS specific, saying that any man who receives the LDS priesthood and then turns away from it (i.e leaves the LDS faith for good) is doomed for eternity to never receive any forgiveness.

To be clear: what is being talked about here is abandoning Christ and blasphemy against God's witness, like in Matthew 12:31. We're not talking about just ditching church.

 

[RoseCrystal]

Does your Bible not read:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. ( Matthew 12:31)

To be clear: what is being talked about here is abandoning Christ and blasphemy against God's witness, like in Matthew 12:31. We're not talking about just ditching church.

Actually that LDS scripture is talking about exactly that - turning your back on the LDS priesthood and leaving the LDS church.

And the bible is very clear that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only eternally unforgivable sin, so D&C 84: 40-41, which is LDS scripture, goes against the bible by saying leaving the LDS priesthood is an eternally unforgivable sin.

Again, I disagree with your point of view on this, I don't think its a rational way to look at it, I think its best if we agree to disagree here.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Speaking from the LDS perspective--

Actually that LDS scripture is talking about exactly that - turning your back on the LDS priesthood and leaving the LDS church.

It's talking about Christ's priesthood and Christ's Church.

And the bible is very clear that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only eternally unforgivable sin, so D&C 84: 40-41, which is LDS scripture, goes against the bible by saying leaving the LDS priesthood is an eternally unforgivable sin.

Actually it's agreeing with the Bible and reiterating that same concept.

(Obviously I acknowledge that not everyone here is LDS and have different views of things. I am simply explaining the accurate LDS view of this LDS-specific scripture.)

 

[ubicaritas]

My experience of ex-Mormons is that the whole experience poisons them to religion. Mormonism is a very totalizing religious system, so that isn't surprising. It seems like they are left with the feeling that religion is something that smothers you like a boa constrictor and they react on a visceral level.

Nicene Christianity is similar enough in vocabulary that I could imagine that could be a serious barrier to Mormons having much interest. I know what its like to have a well-meaning pastor try to use traditional religious language, but the language rings hollow because you've heard people us it in a different way, a way that's personally hurt you and people you care about. It can trigger emotional wounds, or the very least, tension that robs you of inner peace.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Nicene Christianity is similar enough in vocabulary that I could imagine that could be a serious barrier to Mormons having much interest. I know what its like to have a well-meaning pastor try to use traditional religious language, but the language rings hollow because you've heard people us it in a different way, a way that's personally hurt you and people you care about. It can trigger emotional wounds, or the very least, tension that robs you of inner peace.

The much larger barrier for ex-LDS persons becoming Nicene Christians is a past negative history with Nicene Christians behaving certain un-Christ-like ways towards LDS folks. It leaves a VERY negative impression that lingers and repels folks from those groups.

 

[RoseCrystal]

Speaking from the LDS perspective--

It's talking about Christ's priesthood and Christ's Church.

Actually it's agreeing with the Bible and reiterating that same concept.

(Obviously I acknowledge that not everyone here is LDS and have different views of things. I am simply explaining the accurate LDS view of this LDS-specific scripture.)

I respectfully disagree with the LDS point of view on this subject.

I believe this scripture is saying 'if you leave the LDS priesthood, your dammed to an eternity of un-forgiviness'

In the LDS church, the priesthood authority is only given to worthy LDS men, the gift of the Holy Ghost is given to ALL LDS members after they are baptised, so to me, this is not the same thing at all and in my opinion, is certainly not in agreement with the bible.

 

[ubicaritas]

The much larger barrier for ex-LDS persons becoming Nicene Christians is a past negative history with Nicene Christians behaving certain un-Christ-like ways towards LDS folks. It leaves a VERY negative impression that lingers and repels folks from those groups.

I never sensed that ex-Mormons I've known had a persecution complex or animus towards non-Mormons, nor did they ever describe significant persecution as Mormons. It was more like simple religious indifference and suspicion of religion in general. Most seemed very burnt out.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I respectfully disagree with the LDS point of view on this subject.

I believe this scripture is saying 'if you leave the LDS priesthood, your dammed to an eternity of un-forgiviness'

From the LDS perspective that is misunderstanding this verse. Of course, you have the right to think whatever you want even if it has nothing to do with LDS belief, and I respect that right.

In the LDS church, the priesthood authority is only given to worthy LDS men, the gift of the Holy Ghost is given to ALL LDS members after they are baptised, so to me, this is not the same thing at all and in my opinion, is certainly not in agreement with the bible.

Ok, so your disagreement is because of your understanding of priesthood only from the Catholic perspective. That clarifies.

 

[Rescued One]

"...which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant..."

seems to be some logic issues here. how can you break and unbreakable covenant?

the quote is:
"40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come."

who is the "he" in "which he cannot break"? to me it seems to be the aforementioned "all those who receive the priesthood" and not "my Father". Should not the pronoun be capitalized if it revered to "my Father"? Also can man "move" something declared that it cannot be moved?

The quote seems to speak to the fact that the covenant cannot be broken and cannot be moved. So the language of "But whoso breaketh this covenant..." is odd and misplaced. It should read "whoso dishonours the covenant is still under the it and so because of his dishonouring actions shall not have forgiveness of sins..." but don't say you can't break it then give instructions to those who do break it. It's like saying... "look at this rock, it is unbreakable, but whoever breaks it will be cursed"

I see your point. But I know that Joseph Smith or whoever wrote it meant that the Father wouldn't be the One who breaks the covenant. The mortal man is at fault. Those men didn't have college educations in journalism. I have no idea what "it cannot be moved" means unless it means "it can't be changed."

 

[RoseCrystal]

Ok, so your disagreement is because of your understanding of priesthood only from the Catholic perspective. That clarifies.

Just to be 100% clear, NO, that has nothing to do with it at all.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Just to be 100% clear, NO, that has nothing to do with it at all.

Do you believe the Catholic Church is Christ's Church and Catholic priests are ordained with Christ's priesthood?

 

[RoseCrystal]

Do you believe the Catholic Church is Christ's Church and Catholic priests are ordained with Christ's priesthood?

This has NOTHING to do with Catholicism, this thread is about the LDS priesthood and what the LDS church believes about men who turn their back on the LDS priesthood.

Doctrine and Covenants 84
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84?lang=eng

 

[Jane_Doe]

This has NOTHING to do with Catholicism, this thread is about the LDS priesthood and what the LDS church believes about men who turn their back on the LDS priesthood.

Doctrine and Covenants 84
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84?lang=eng

And if this verse were talking about the Catholic Church and the Catholic priesthood, you would agree with it? (Note: we're talking about a big infraction here, not something like ditching church).

Obviously I'm not a mind reader, but I think the answer to that question is "yes". (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Hence this disagreement isn't really about the verse itself, but your belief that Catholic priesthood is Christ's priesthood and not the LDS one. And that's fine for you to think --- I honestly respect such a perspective.

 

[Rescued One]

Vast majority of "LDS" tagged threads on this subforum actually teach misinformation about LDS beliefs. For example in this thread, the verse referenced is not talking about any random ex-LDS man who just don't show up to church, or even those that join another church, or even those who just become random atheist. Rather it's talking about those who completely and utterly abandon Christ in line with Matthew 12:31.

That's not what the scripture says. My late husband left your church and priesthood and went back to being a Protestant.

Granted, Mormonism teaches that anyone who rejects Mormonism rejects Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 84
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall nothave forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life.

44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondageof sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkenedbecause of unbelief, and because you have treated lightlythe things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;

61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

62 Therefore, go ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature.

63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends;

64 Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost...


74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am...


94 Nevertheless, search diligently and spare not; and wo unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony concerning me.

95 Wo, I say again, unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you, or your words, or your testimony of me;

96 For I, the Almighty, have laid my hands upon the nations, to scourge them for their wickedness.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84?lang=eng

Again, misinformation with quotes taken out of context (textually and conceptually). If @CodyFaith wishes for any clarification on ACTUAL Mormon beliefs, feel free to ask.

You don't officially speak for the Mormon church. You accuse people of providing misinformation, but aren't willing to prove it.