Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

[jgr]

Your theory? Not one chance in a million! Paul was writing of END TIMES, just before the man of sin will be revealed. I hope you don't tell me you think his revealing was historic also!

Perhaps, in the beginning, the thousands that came into the Body of Christ in the first 30 years or so of the church. perhaps some of them fell away when persecution reached its peak. However, my guess is, for everyone that "fall away," a greater number came in. My friend, the church is growing, not shrinking!

What do you think the Reformation was about?

The Reformers' diagnosis was completely accurate, and the prescription was ultimately successful.

Paul's prediction is historical to us, but was future to Paul.

Excerpt from the 1769 King James Bible introduction:

"And this their contentment doth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe, that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of [Christendom], by writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that
man of Sin, as will not be healed,) and every day at home, by religious and learned discourse, by frequenting the house of God, by hearing the Word preached, by cherishing the Teachers thereof, by caring for the Church, as a most tender and loving nursing Father."

 

[iamlamad]

What do you think the Reformation was about?

The Reformers' diagnosis was completely accurate, and the prescription was ultimately successful.

Paul's prediction is historical to us, but was future to Paul.

Excerpt from the 1769 King James Bible introduction:

"And this their contentment doth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe, that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of [Christendom], by writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that
man of Sin, as will not be healed,) and every day at home, by religious and learned discourse, by frequenting the house of God, by hearing the Word preached, by cherishing the Teachers thereof, by caring for the Church, as a most tender and loving nursing Father."

Man has always looked blindly into the future, because we cannot see into the future. God has given us some glimpses, but not a clear picture.

It was so with many of our forefathers in the faith: they did not understand many of the prophecies still future to us today. Even today the church is divided on Daniel 9:26: some thinking it is history, while others think it is still future to us today.

The truth is, we are still in the church age. Little has changed in God's plans since Paul was alive. However, many prophesies have been fulfilled concerning Israel. Ezekiel 37: God has brought Israel back into their land. This is a visible miracle for all the world to see: and one of the greatest miracles God has pulled off. He said He would do it, and He did.

And this miracle tells us we are approaching the end of the church age. Few people understand it, but Revelation chapter 8 through chapter 16 is an in-depth look at Daniel 9:26: the 70th week of Daniel - still in our future.

Many people even today don't understand what Paul was telling us in 1 thes. 4 & 5. He tells us of the great catching away, then tells us WHEN in relation to the events of Revelation. He tells us a SUDDENLY is coming: the dead in Christ will suddenly fly up out of their graves, causing a great, world-wide earthquake - Paul's "sudden destruction. Then, at that moment, two groups of people get two different results: those living in darkness cannot escape this worldwide earthquake, but those living in the light of the gospel do escape: they are caught up into the air with those dead in Christ who were raised a moment before.

Paul shows us that this worldwide earthquake "sudden destruction" is the opening salvo of the Day of the Lord, and further shows us it is the start of the Wrath of God. Where does Paul's catching away fit in Revelation? Where is the first great earthquake in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal. The truth is, the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord, which begins at the 6th seal. Paul's rapture comes a moment before the 6th seal. It is no mistake that John saw a crowd too large to number in the next chapter in Revelation.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must WAIT for judgment. Indeed, they have been waiting almost 2000 years now. They must wait for the last martyr of the church age. When will that be? The rapture will end the church age. Therefore the raptrue will end church age martyrs. The 5th seal is really telling us that the martyrs must wait for the rapture of the church that will end the church age. So between the 5th seal and the 6th seal, Jesus will call up His church.

The reformation was the reforming of the Catholic church. But it would not be reformed, so the protestant movement came about. Many of the protestant denominations of today came from the Catholic church.

 

[iamlamad]

The, or a, basic premise of your argument is seen in your following claim: "There is no falling away, nor will there be."

But there was.

The 4th century saw the emergence of the beginning of the papal Roman empire, which over the next more than 1,000 years fell away from orthodoxy into apostasy. Over that period, it "made war on the saints", claiming millions of lives. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that the Church was delivered from its spiritual dark ages.

It was this "apostasia" that the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul, and to which he was referring in his message to the Church at Thessalonica.

Sorry, no "man of sin" was revealed then. He will be revealed soon - after the departing of the church. Just wait and we will see it come to pass.

 

[iamlamad]

LOL.

You don't get it. First, you have a carnal mind. Second, you fail to learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture to find what exactly what God talked about. For example:

Revelation 11:5
[5] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.​

To the natural mind like yourself, they will think that God was talking about a literal fire coming out of man's mouth to destroy people. Or you think that Christians should not do that, only bring love to the world. Really? This is NOT what God meant! You will need to do some homework where you will find the Truth.

Here it is:

Jeremiah 5:14
[14] Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.​

Literally? Of course not! It is God's Word is the fire that comes out of His witnesses' mouth as a judgment against those who do not want to hear the Truth! Spiritually! Selah!

So yes God empowered His Witnesses (Christians) with His Word, which is a sharp Two-edged sword that brings cool water (salvation) or fire (judgment) to hearers as God see fit!

Now, you do the same by comparing Scripture with Scripture to find out God's interpretation for water, blood, and heaven in Revelation 11:6 and go from there.

One thing is sure: you and I will not agree on many points.

On Rev. 11:6 Did you forget what Moses did: water turned to blood? God will repeat it. Did you forget what Elijah did: stopping the rain for years? Then starting it with prayer? God will repeat it through these two witnesses.

I doubt if you know this, but Daniel 9:26 is explained in Revelation chapters 8 through 16, which is an in-depth look at the future 70th week of Daniel. Even if you don't believe it now, you will, for it is soon to come to pass.

 

[BABerean2]

Man has always looked blindly into the future, because we cannot see into the future. God has given us some glimpses, but not a clear picture.

It was so with many of our forefathers in the faith: they did not understand many of the prophecies still future to us today. Even today the church is divided on Daniel 9:26: some thinking it is history, while others think it is still future to us today.

The truth is, we are still in the church age. Little has changed in God's plans since Paul was alive. However, many prophesies have been fulfilled concerning Israel. Ezekiel 37: God has brought Israel back into their land. This is a visible miracle for all the world to see: and one of the greatest miracles God has pulled off. He said He would do it, and He did.

And this miracle tells us we are approaching the end of the church age. Few people understand it, but Revelation chapter 8 through chapter 16 is an in-depth look at Daniel 9:26: the 70th week of Daniel - still in our future.

Many people even today don't understand what Paul was telling us in 1 thes. 4 & 5. He tells us of the great catching away, then tells us WHEN in relation to the events of Revelation. He tells us a SUDDENLY is coming: the dead in Christ will suddenly fly up out of their graves, causing a great, world-wide earthquake - Paul's "sudden destruction. Then, at that moment, two groups of people get two different results: those living in darkness cannot escape this worldwide earthquake, but those living in the light of the gospel do escape: they are caught up into the air with those dead in Christ who were raised a moment before.

Paul shows us that this worldwide earthquake "sudden destruction" is the opening salvo of the Day of the Lord, and further shows us it is the start of the Wrath of God. Where does Paul's catching away fit in Revelation? Where is the first great earthquake in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal. The truth is, the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord, which begins at the 6th seal. Paul's rapture comes a moment before the 6th seal. It is no mistake that John saw a crowd too large to number in the next chapter in Revelation.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must WAIT for judgment. Indeed, they have been waiting almost 2000 years now. They must wait for the last martyr of the church age. When will that be? The rapture will end the church age. Therefore the raptrue will end church age martyrs. The 5th seal is really telling us that the martyrs must wait for the rapture of the church that will end the church age. So between the 5th seal and the 6th seal, Jesus will call up His church.

The reformation was the reforming of the Catholic church. But it would not be reformed, so the protestant movement came about. Many of the protestant denominations of today came from the Catholic church.

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the "Church Age" cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, your Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

 

[TribulationSigns]

One thing is sure: you and I will not agree on many points.

On Rev. 11:6 Did you forget what Moses did: water turned to blood? God will repeat it. Did you forget what Elijah did: stopping the rain for years? Then starting it with prayer? God will repeat it through these two witnesses.

You missed the point! Just because what Moses did not mean that we will repeat the plague physically. These Old Testament judgment or plagues are a foreshadow what is to come in Revelation! Not something that will repeat literally!

I see that you failed to compare verse six with the rest of Scripture. For example, what does the water represent? Blood? Why did the water turn to blood? Yes, it happened physically in days of Exodus but what you overlooked is that it does have spiritual signification for our understanding with a wisdom of Christ. What does the water represents in Scripture? Isn't it Christ, the living water? And what does the blood that pollutes the water represents in Scripture? Have you researched these? Your mistake is to compare Revelation 11:6 with God's plague through Moses in Egypt in Exodus thinking that Revelation will repeat these plague literally. No, it does not.

I doubt if you know this, but Daniel 9:26 is explained in Revelation chapters 8 through 16, which is an in-depth look at the future 70th week of Daniel. Even if you don't believe it now, you will, for it is soon to come to pass.

Please stick to our discussion on Revelation 11 above. Quit distracting from the subject.

 

[jgr]

Man has always looked blindly into the future, because we cannot see into the future. God has given us some glimpses, but not a clear picture.

It was so with many of our forefathers in the faith: they did not understand many of the prophecies still future to us today. Even today the church is divided on Daniel 9:26: some thinking it is history, while others think it is still future to us today

Yes, dispensationalism does look blindly into the future, characterized by its futurized fantasies of interpretation by imagination.

But Jesus and Peter didn't, nor do all of the saints of the ages who have understood their declarations.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The fulfilled Word of prophecy is the sure Word of prophecy.

The historical true Church was not divided on Daniel 9:24-27. There was no one in over 1800 years of true Church history who espoused the postponement of the passage as it is dispensationally proclaimed today. The closest was Irenaeus (and his protege Hippolytus), but their postulated 500-year postponement came and went uneventfully, as expected. No historical scholar thereafter suffered from postponement delusion.

Daniel 9:24-27 has been entirely fulfilled by the sacrifice of Messiah the Prince, and in the judgment and destruction of the unbelieving Israelite nation which the passage foretells.

The reformation was the reforming of the Catholic church. But it would not be reformed, so the protestant movement came about. Many of the protestant denominations of today came from the Catholic church.

The Protestant movement did not “come about”; the Reformation was the Protestant Reformation. It accurately diagnosed the apostate papacy as the man of sin. The King James 1769 Bible version introduction affirmed that diagnosis.

The doctrine of a future man of sin or antichrist, espoused by dispensational futurism today, was born in the counterfeit speculation of the papal counter-reformation's Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera.

 

[iamlamad]

You missed the point! Just because what Moses did not mean that we will repeat the plague physically. These Old Testament judgment or plagues are a foreshadow what is to come in Revelation! Not something that will repeat literally!

I see that you failed to compare verse six with the rest of Scripture. For example, what does the water represent? Blood? Why did the water turn to blood? Yes, it happened physically in days of Exodus but what you overlooked is that it does have spiritual signification for our understanding with a wisdom of Christ. What does the water represents in Scripture? Isn't it Christ, the living water? And what does the blood that pollutes the water represents in Scripture? Have you researched these? Your mistake is to compare Revelation 11:6 with God's plague through Moses in Egypt in Exodus thinking that Revelation will repeat these plague literally. No, it does not.



Please stick to our discussion on Revelation 11 above. Quit distracting from the subject.

As I said, we are not going to agree. I take rain literally. I take water to blood literally. I take most of Revelation literally. I think it was meant to be so taken. You can spiritualize the truth away but I will not.

For example, when John write that Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles 42 months, that is very literal: The real city of Jerusalem we can find on Middle East maps will be trampled for a very real 42 month period by Gentiles. I personally believe they will be Muslim Gentiles. The real question is, what is the Holy Spirit trying to tell us here? Another question is WHEN?

It will be very shortly (days) before the man of sin will enter the new Jewish temple and declare that he is the very God of the Jews. I would guess 3 1/2 days before this event Jesus called the abomination of desolation.

What? Paul tells us the man of sin will enter the temple. The temple will be in Jerusalem, so it makes sense that the man of sin MUST arrive in Jerusalem (From Syria?) before he can enter the temple in Jerusalem. 11:1-2 is telling us that he just arrived with Gentile armies, and will remain in Jerusalem for 42 months.

Next, John tells us that the two prophets show up. WHY do they show up then? They show up because the man of sin just showed up. He was their timing. And they show up 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of a REAL 70th week still in our future. They will testify for 1260 days - REAL 24 hour days - and then be killed. They will be killed 3 1/2 days before the end of the week, and lay dead those 3 1/2 days. Then God will raise them up at the end of the 70th week - a REAL 7 year period of time - which will be at the 7th vial. the 7th vial is a marker for the end of the week.

John then takes us through the entire last half of the week with the two witnesses, but written as a parenthesis, with no bearing on chronology. The earthquake here is the very same earthquake we read of at the 7th vial in chapter 16. In 11:14, the parenthesis is over and John is right back at the midpoint of the REAL 7 year period in our future. The 7th trumpet is a marker marking the exact midpoint. It will sound in heaven at the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

Another amazing event takes place at the 7th trumpet: the kingdoms of the world - of which Satan has been the ruler from the days of Adam, are transferred from Satan to our Lord Jesus Christ - the rightful ruler. WHY at the 7th trumpet? It is my belief that the 7th trumpet will also mark the end of the 6000 year lease given to Adam. The book in the Father's right hand, sealed with 7 seals, is that lease document. The truth is, Jesus was found worthy to break the seals, which will lead to the trumpet judgments, which will lead to the 7th trumpet when Satan is finally cast down from the heavens and loses his position as ruler of the earth.

Then there is worship in heaven, and the 24 elders give a prophecy.

The next five verses, the first five of chapter 12, are again a parenthesis about the birth of Christ and how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a child. Then in 12:6 John is right back at the midpoint, perhaps a second or two after, and those in Judea who saw the abomination will begin to flee exactly as Jesus told them to.

Then follows the battle in the heavenlies and Satan is cast down. WHY THEN? It is very simple: Adam's lease ended and the ONLY legal thing Satan had to hold onto was Adam's lease he usurped. Michael has been waiting for a very long time to hear that 7th trumpet sound, and when he does, there will be war in the heavenly realms.

Chapter 12 is about the Dragon (Satan) mentioned I think 32 times. But in particular, about what the Dragon will do during the last 3 1/2 years of the future 70th week.

When these events soon come to pass, you will find they will happen just as John wrote and just as I have outlined. ANY other theory will be wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

Daniel 9:24-27 has been entirely fulfilled by the sacrifice of Messiah the Prince, and in the judgment and destruction of the unbelieving Israelite nation which the passage foretells.

Only in your fantasy world!

The Protestant movement did not “come about”; the Reformation was the Protestant Reformation. It accurately diagnosed the apostate papacy as the man of sin. The King James 1769 Bible version introduction affirmed that diagnosis.

Again, the papacy being the "man of sins" is only in your fantasy.

The doctrine of a future man of sin or antichrist, espoused by dispensational futurism today, was born in the counterfeit speculation of the papal counter-reformation's Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera.

Just wait: the REAL man of sin will soon be revealed, and then you will know the truth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

As I said, we are not going to agree. I take rain literally. I take water to blood literally. I take most of Revelation literally. I think it was meant to be so taken. You can spiritualize the truth away but I will not.

You are saying this because you won't bother to do some researching by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Spiritual discerned for those who has a spirit of Christ. Do you?

For example, when John write that Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles 42 months, that is very literal: The real city of Jerusalem we can find on Middle East maps will be trampled for a very real 42 month period by Gentiles. I personally believe they will be Muslim Gentiles. The real question is, what is the Holy Spirit trying to tell us here? Another question is WHEN?

Ahh, distracted from subject already discussed, but I will play along...

You got wrong Jerusalem and wrong Gentiles. The church, God's congregation, a great city, is symbolically Jerusalem in Revelation. Not physical middle eastern city. Gentiles are the heathen, those who are not spiritually Jews, the Christians.

It will be very shortly (days) before the man of sin will enter the new Jewish temple and declare that he is the very God of the Jews. I would guess 3 1/2 days before this event Jesus called the abomination of desolation.

No. ANYONE with the spirit of Antichrist, especially the false prophets and christs, is the man of Sin in God's eyes. They are the one who will sit (rule) in the temple (church).

What? Paul tells us the man of sin will enter the temple. The temple will be in Jerusalem, so it makes sense that the man of sin MUST arrive in Jerusalem (From Syria?) before he can enter the temple in Jerusalem. 11:1-2 is telling us that he just arrived with Gentile armies, and will remain in Jerusalem for 42 months.

No, he is among us in the church. Guess you have not noticed them because you are busy looking for someone from Europe to come down to Middle Eastern nation of Israel.

Next, John tells us that the two prophets show up.

God did not say "two prophets". He said "two witnesses" which symbolically are God's people whom He empowered with the Truth. Number two in Scripture signifies Truth.

WHY do they show up then? They show up because the man of sin just showed up.

Obviously you did not read the Scripture. Two Witnesses appeared long before man of sin!

Revelation 11:3 KJV​

[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Christians (Two Witnesses) has been empowered by God at Pentecost and they prophesy for 1,260 days which symbolically the whole New Testament period which the church was being build while Satan was in bottomless pit. Only then AFTER their testimony is finished that Satan will be loosened and the reveal of Man of Sin. You got timing wrong.

Revelation 11:7-8 KJV
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​

[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The church as spirituall become apostasy and desolate like Sodom and Egypt. It is beause this is when man of sin rules. The truthful testimony of Two Witnesses has been silenced (killed) so that no one can hear the truth anymore in the church.

He was their timing. And they show up 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of a REAL 70th week still in our future. They will testify for 1260 days - REAL 24 hour days - and then be killed. They will be killed 3 1/2 days before the end of the week, and lay dead those 3 1/2 days. Then God will raise them up at the end of the 70th week - a REAL 7 year period of time - which will be at the 7th vial. the 7th vial is a marker for the end of the week.

Uh? You really got timing all confused. Especially that you think the 70th week is a literal 7 years.

Another amazing event takes place at the 7th trumpet: the kingdoms of the world - of which Satan has been the ruler from the days of Adam, are transferred from Satan to our Lord Jesus Christ - the rightful ruler. WHY at the 7th trumpet? It is my belief that the 7th trumpet will also mark the end of the 6000 year lease given to Adam. The book in the Father's right hand, sealed with 7 seals, is that lease document. The truth is, Jesus was found worthy to break the seals, which will lead to the trumpet judgments, which will lead to the 7th trumpet when Satan is finally cast down from the heavens and loses his position as ruler of the earth.

SMH.

Then there is worship in heaven, and the 24 elders give a prophecy.

Then? After the 7th trumpet? Boy, you really need to read Scripture again.

The next five verses, the first five of chapter 12, are again a parenthesis about the birth of Christ and how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a child. Then in 12:6 John is right back at the midpoint, perhaps a second or two after, and those in Judea who saw the abomination will begin to flee exactly as Jesus told them to.

"Perhaps"? That does not sound like you know what you are talking about.

Then follows the battle in the heavenlies and Satan is cast down. WHY THEN? It is very simple: Adam's lease ended and the ONLY legal thing Satan had to hold onto was Adam's lease he usurped. Michael has been waiting for a very long time to hear that 7th trumpet sound, and when he does, there will be war in the heavenly realms.

Lease? Michael waiting for 7th trumpet where you think the war in heaven will take place? Chuckle!

Chapter 12 is about the Dragon (Satan) mentioned I think 32 times. But in particular, about what the Dragon will do during the last 3 1/2 years of the future 70th week.

Really?

When these events soon come to pass, you will find they will happen just as John wrote and just as I have outlined. ANY other theory will be wrong.

You already got half of your theories wrong. The rest will be wrong shortly. You lacks spiritual discernment. Just speculations.

 

[jgr]

Again, the papacy being the "man of sins" is only in your fantasy.

Futurism fantasizes. History realizes.

The Reformers lived and died historical reality in the belly of the man of sin. Without their faith and sacrifice you and I would not be here today.

So the choice is between historical reality and futurized fantasy.

Easy decision.

 

[iamlamad]

↑iamlamad said

As I said, we are not going to agree. I take rain literally. I take water to blood literally. I take most of Revelation literally. I think it was meant to be so taken. You can spiritualize the truth away but I will not.

You are saying this because you won't bother to do some researching by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Spiritual discerned for those who has a spirit of Christ. Do you?

That is not it at all: you only think so because you imagine you are right about almost everything. I wait on the Holy Spirit to find out HIS INTENT on scripture. As I said, you and I will not agree on much here.

 

[iamlamad]

Ahh, distracted from subject already discussed, but I will play along...

You got wrong Jerusalem and wrong Gentiles. The church, God's congregation, a great city, is symbolically Jerusalem in Revelation. Not physical middle eastern city. Gentiles are the heathen, those who are not spiritually Jews, the Christians.

We were discussing Rev. 11. I am working on the CONTEXT of verse 6. If you wish to ignore the context you will end up with the wrong conclusions.

As I said, we will not agree. You wish to spiriualize Jerusalem! Have you looked on a map? "Jerusalem" is found 767 times in the bible as a city.

Just so you know the truth: JESUS will return to that city one day soon. He will set up His earthly temple there and will rule the world from there, for 1000 years.

 

[iamlamad]

Futurism fantasizes. History realizes.

The Reformers lived and died historical reality in the belly of the man of sin. Without their faith and sacrifice you and I would not be here today.

So the choice is between historical reality and futurized fantasy.

Easy decision.

You are sure going to be SHOCKED when the future plays out just as futurism and Revelation portrays it will! The truth is, the fantasy is all on the side of the historical view of Revelation. It is a book of the future, for the most part - still future to us today.

 

[iamlamad]

No. ANYONE with the spirit of Antichrist, especially the false prophets and christs, is the man of Sin in God's eyes. They are the one who will sit (rule) in the temple (church).

No, he is among us in the church. Guess you have not noticed them because you are busy looking for someone from Europe to come down to Middle Eastern nation of Israel.

God did not say "two prophets". He said "two witnesses" which symbolically are God's people whom He empowered with the Truth. Number two in Scripture signifies Truth.

Obviously you did not read the Scripture. Two Witnesses appeared long before man of sin!

Revelation 11:3 KJV​

[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Christians (Two Witnesses) has been empowered by God at Pentecost and they prophesy for 1,260 days which symbolically the whole New Testament period which the church was being build while Satan was in bottomless pit. Only then AFTER their testimony is finished that Satan will be loosened and the reveal of Man of Sin. You got timing wrong.

Revelation 11:7-8 KJV
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​

[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The church as spirituall become apostasy and desolate like Sodom and Egypt. It is beause this is when man of sin rules. The truthful testimony of Two Witnesses has been silenced (killed) so that no one can hear the truth anymore in the church.

Uh? You really got timing all confused. Especially that you think the 70th week is a literal 7 years.

SMH.

Then? After the 7th trumpet? Boy, you really need to read Scripture again.

"Perhaps"? That does not sound like you know what you are talking about.

Lease? Michael waiting for 7th trumpet where you think the war in heaven will take place? Chuckle!

Really?

You already got half of your theories wrong. The rest will be wrong shortly. You lacks spiritual discernment. Just speculations.

You are so far from reality and the truth of what is coming, so clearly outlined in Revelation, it is a waste of time answering. Anyone who spiritualizes what God has meant to be taken literally is in for a great SHOCK.

YES, REALLY!

You remind me of one of Socrates famous sayings:
The ills of the whole world are caused by those who think they know, when in fact, they don't. I can see you THINK you know Revelation. You are in for a great shock.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are so far from reality and the truth of what is coming, so clearly outlined in Revelation, it is a waste of time answering. Anyone who spiritualizes what God has meant to be taken literally is in for a great SHOCK.

YES, REALLY!

You remind me of one of Socrates famous sayings:
The ills of the whole world are caused by those who think they know, when in fact, they don't. I can see you THINK you know Revelation. You are in for a great shock.

Actually true humility is in bringing ourselves into subjection to the authority of the word. I try to prove that the scriptures are right, not myself. I have feet of clay like everyone else, but the witness of the word is perfect, true and trustworthy and not subject to man's private interpretations. Unfortunately, there are many many many people like you today who are offended by scripture that contradicts them, and so they cannot abide the witness of it. Humility is as humility does.

Psalms 25:9-10

• "The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
• All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies."

Humility is in the eye of the beholder, and my beholder is God alone. Meekness is determined by the sovereign providence of the Lord. Is there humility in denying God has defined His Congregation as Babylon, or is there pride, arrogance and denial of what is written. The Lord Judge. I am comfortable with that.

 

[jgr]

You are sure going to be SHOCKED when the future plays out just as futurism and Revelation portrays it will! The truth is, the fantasy is all on the side of the historical view of Revelation. It is a book of the future, for the most part - still future to us today.

Futurism is the epitome of fantasy, constrained solely by imaginatory delirium.

History is the epitome of reality, constrained completely by the immutables of fact and truth.

For those who yearn for truth, the choice is simple and unmistakable.

 

[iamlamad]

Actually true humility is in bringing ourselves into subjection to the authority of the word. I try to prove that the scriptures are right, not myself. I have feet of clay like everyone else, but the witness of the word is perfect, true and trustworthy and not subject to man's private interpretations. Unfortunately, there are many many many people like you today who are offended by scripture that contradicts them, and so they cannot abide the witness of it. Humility is as humility does.

Psalms 25:9-10

• "The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
• All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies."

Humility is in the eye of the beholder, and my beholder is God alone. Meekness is determined by the sovereign providence of the Lord. Is there humility in denying God has defined His Congregation as Babylon, or is there pride, arrogance and denial of what is written. The Lord Judge. I am comfortable with that.

The scriptures are perfect. It is how people read and understand them that counts. Sorry: you are mistaken het again: I am not offended by scripture. Neither do I get offended when someone doesn't understand them and teaches something other than the intent of the Author.

Somehow this does not seem to ring true as the voice of meekness: "there are many many many people like you today who are offended..."

I disagree so I am mistaken and offended? As I said, you are one who thinks they know, when in fact, they don't. But don't take my word for it: very soon the pages of Revelation will come to life and you will see them come to pass. Why? Because they speak of future events.

 

[iamlamad]

Futurism is the epitome of fantasy, constrained solely by imaginatory delirium.

History is the epitome of reality, constrained completely by the immutables of fact and truth.

For those who yearn for truth, the choice is simple and unmistakable.

Just hang onto your hat and wait: soon the pages of Revelation will take place. You will see the rapture of the church, then the 6th seal come to pass. Then you will know you were mistaken.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I disagree so I am mistaken and offended? As I said, you are one who thinks they know, when in fact, they don't. But don't take my word for it: very soon the pages of Revelation will come to life and you will see them come to pass. Why? Because they speak of future events.