If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I think that you can lose your salvation from your free choice. The problem is that I think you would need to renounce your salvation with a sane mind. But who with a sane mind could knowingly give up a relatonship with God and an eternity with him in paradise for a future without him and an eternity in Hell. No one who is mentally healthy could choose hell.

How can you lose what is not yours?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

One can enter marriage by one's free will, but one cannot end the marriage by one's free will.

The marriage supper of the lamb does not occur until after Christ's second coming (Rev 19:9). Right now the marriage hasn't been consummated- we are 'betrothed.' The Holy Spirit is the arrabon (EPh 1:14) - the engagement ring or down payment - which shows God will not back out of his promises. This doesn't mean that we cannot back out - but rather that if we back out, we cannot ask for the fulfillment of the promises.

II Cor 11:2-4 "I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."

If our being betrothed to Christ meant we couldn't stray to another gospel and reject him, why would Paul speak of godly jealousy here and worry that it was possible? Paul specifically states the possibility that they may be led astray, despite their betrothal, and receive/take a different spirit than the Holy Spirit or receive a different gospel. Engagement is no guarantee of remaining in Christ or holding fast to faith and the Spirit.

We also see this in a couple parables:

- Matt 25:1-13 Of the ten virgins, only five are invited to the marriage supper while five are turned away as if the groom 'never knew' them. Yet the very fact they were in the procession means that they were once invited to be in it (whether as bridesmaids or the actual brides - the text doesn't specifically mandate one or the other.) The warning of the parable is to keep watch for Christ and prepare (rather than ignore Christ because He is long in coming,) and that beginning is meaningless if one isn't still following Christ when He returns. There isn't time for a second-chance conversion once Christ comes back.

Matt 22:1-14, Isa 61:10: This parable is a picture of the future wedding feast of the lamb. Those who respond to the invitation are given wedding garments - the righteousness of Christ. Yet somehow, one man did not have clothes when the king came to inspect! It's a little doubtful that he never put them on at all - how would he have gotten into the hall without them, as it was a requirement? This is the very question the king asks, but the man is speechless. To get in, he would have had to put on the garments - but take them off and return to his old rags once inside. The king doesn't view that as enough - he has the man tossed outside into darkness. The garments of Christ's righteousness cannot be applied to him since he is not wearing them.

 

[Stacyjo Hamlin]

Matthew 12:31-32

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

How can you lose what is not yours?

? Salvation comes from God - won by Christ, given to those with faith - but it is also 'our salvation' as we are the ones being rescued. Obviously Christ is not being rescued, nor has God need of salvation. Salvation can be described as the Lord's since it comes from Him - it is the salvation He brings. But it can be described as ours as we are the recipients.

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Eph 1:13

A prince who offers to free an imprisoned people brings his salvation to them and can say, 'I bring my salvation.' If an individual accepts it, then they are saved and can rightly say, 'My salvation has come.'

Salvation is God's in the sense of the one who brings it, and ours in the sense of individuals who receive it. Our receiving it through faith in no way lessens that it is God's accomplishment and not our own.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

If you think about it, if is a free gift from God in which if one confesses with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord, and they turn from their sins, they will be saved, according to Romans 10:9-11, why cant them loosing Salvation also be an option if they choose to openly denounce their faith and God and they no longer feel the need to follow God and die unrepentant in their sins.

Think how many atheists you see on line religious forums or social media, states how they used to be devout Christians, until they opened their eyes and either saw the bible as nonsense or the idea of a God itself to be false as well with all that goes on in the world and they denounce their faith and do as they please and many die in that state. Would we say, that atheist is going to Heaven because they spouted a few words when they were 13yrs old in church, despite his future free will choice as an adult to walk away from God.

They knew as much about Christianity as my pet goldfish....they were never in the Body of Christ.....that’s what matters......people do not choose Christianity like they would a brand of soap....” anybody can come, but no one comes lest the Spirit call him”...... they were fooled, God does the choosing......

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

When we give our lives to Lord Jesus, we are no longer our own. We have been purchased. Bought with the price. We belong to Him.
1Cor.6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

They knew as much about Christianity as my pet goldfish....they were never in the Body of Christ.....that’s what matters......people do not choose Christianity like they would a brand of soap....” anybody can come, but no one comes lest the Spirit call him”...... they were fooled, God does the choosing......

And what He chooses, He keeps.

 

[SAAN]

But I also believe as long as you Romans 10:9-11, Confess and believe that Romans 8:38-39 there is NOTHING that can take away that love.

Like I stated, numerous Atheist were once devout Christians that said they all believed in their heart and confessed Jesus is Lord and when they got older, they walked away from God. So are we to believe a devout Atheist that was once a Christian is saved because he believed when we has a teen and when he was older decides to go the complete opposite and denounce God all together.

We can say he was never saved, but then that would mean there is more to getting saved than Romans 10:9-11 in which you confesses and believe Jesus is Lord.

 

[Southernscotty]

Like I stated, numerous Atheist were once devout Christians that said they all believed in their heart and confessed Jesus is Lord and when they got older, they walked away from God. So are we to believe a devout Atheist that was once a Christian is saved because he believed when we has a teen and when he was older decides to go the complete opposite and denounce God all together.

We can say he was never saved, but then that would mean there is more to getting saved than Romans 10:9-11 in which you confesses and believe Jesus is Lord.

I do not claim to have all the answers, But if a man "really" "truly" accepts Jesus, How could they ever wish to turn away?? So that question goes both ways you see. I say they had a false sense of who He was and not true salvation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Even though eternal life is a free gift, it is still only granted by Yahweh to whom HE CHOOSES. No one else. (it doesn't matter what they do or say about themselves, nor what others do or say about them)

QUOTE="SAAN, post: 72874524, member: 329821"]If you think about it, if is a free gift from God in which if one confesses with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord, and they turn from their sins, they will be saved, according to Romans 10:9-11, why cant them loosing Salvation also be an option if they choose to openly denounce their faith and God and they no longer feel the need to follow God and die unrepentant in their sins.

Think how many atheists you see on line religious forums or social media, states how they used to be devout Christians, until they opened their eyes and either saw the bible as nonsense or the idea of a God itself to be false as well with all that goes on in the world and they denounce their faith and do as they please and many die in that state. Would we say, that atheist is going to Heaven because they spouted a few words when they were 13yrs old in church, despite his future free will choice as an adult to walk away from God.[/QUOTE

 

[Anto9us]

This "never were saved to begin with" concept is a real cop-out, imo.

There are too many verses about guarding against FALLING AWAY

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Notice that what is deemed IMPOSSIBLE - is not that someone could Fall AWAY - it is verified in 6:6 that they indeed CAN fall away -- the IMPOSSIBLENESS seems to be renewing them; once having been saved and fallen back.

This might be on order of blasphemy against Holy Spirit, an unpardonable sin.

We know in fact that - as has been said - many atheists claim they used to be Christians.

We also know that many such people claim to have returned to the Lord - iow - they 'fell away' in a manner that it was NOT 'impossible' for them to be renewed to repentance; I have seen such posts here at CF and other boards.

To blindly hold to OSAS and just play the "never were saved to begin with" card (of those who used to be believers and fell away) is against reason.
To play the 'IMPOSSIBLE TO REPENT' card against someone who went from believer to atheist then back to believer -- that too is bogus to me.

 

[Southernscotty]

This "never were saved to begin with" concept is a real cop-out, imo.

There are too many verses about guarding against FALLING AWAY

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Notice that what is deemed IMPOSSIBLE - is not that someone could Fall AWAY - it is verified in 6:6 that they indeed CAN fall away -- the IMPOSSIBLENESS seems to be renewing them; once having been saved and fallen back.

This might be on order of blasphemy against Holy Spirit, an unpardonable sin.

We know in fact that - as has been said - many atheists claim they used to be Christians.

We also know that many such people claim to have returned to the Lord - iow - they 'fell away' in a manner that it was NOT 'impossible' for them to be renewed to repentance; I have seen such posts here at CF and other boards.

To blindly hold to OSAS and just play the "never were saved to begin with" card (of those who used to be believers and fell away) is against reason.
To play the 'IMPOSSIBLE TO REPENT' card against someone who went from believer to atheist then back to believer -- that too is bogus to me.

No friend that is the whole point. It is impossible to fall away AFTER receiving that GRACE. Grace is "unmerited favor" That means that we didn't deserve or earn it. It is God's doing not ours.
If you TRULY grasp this, Then you will never want to let it go :]

 

[Anto9us]

I think it is the idea of "no man snatches them out of My hand" - iow, no OUTSIDE FORCE makes a believer fall.

Conversely, maybe I have to understand the IMPOSSIBLE 'to renew them again unto repentance' clause as meaning no one 'from the outside' will get the backslider to come back to repentance - it must come from within her or himself.

To paraphrase Arminius - "It is not possible that a BELIEVER can lose their salvation, but it MIGHT be possible that a person can CEASE BEING A BELIEVER".

 

[Anto9us]

No, what does "renew them AGAIN to repentance" MEAN other than someone USED TO BELIEVE, fell away, and we are talking about them BELIEVING AGAIN ?

 

[Southernscotty]

I am going to give you Got Questions answer here as I like it.
Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

Answer: Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6confirms that doctrine.

 

[συνείδησις]

We are adopted true, but He thought we were valuable enough to send Lord Jesus to redeem fallen man, that all man had to do is believe and be adopted.I have grandchildren who are adopted. Guess what? They are mine.If you mess with them, you are messing with me. Our Father loves us like that. Ask Saul/Paul.

If GOD broke off the unbelieving natural branches, what makes you think he won't break off the unbelieving unnatural branches?

 

[Anto9us]

1Timothy 1:18
This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Timothy 1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Timothy 1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Like I stated, numerous Atheist were once devout Christians that said they all believed in their heart and confessed Jesus is Lord and when they got older, they walked away from God. So are we to believe a devout Atheist that was once a Christian is saved because he believed when we has a teen and when he was older decides to go the complete opposite and denounce God all together.

We can say he was never saved, but then that would mean there is more to getting saved than Romans 10:9-11 in which you confesses and believe Jesus is Lord.

We believe what scripture says about them

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If GOD broke off the unbelieving natural branches, what makes you think he won't break off the unbelieving unnatural branches?

Just guessing here: 'tradition' ? (opposed to Yahweh and contrary to His Word)

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

If GOD broke off the unbelieving natural branches, what makes you think he won't break off the unbelieving unnatural branches?

Key word: unbelieving. See my post above.#58