If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

[Handmaid for Jesus]

He is addressing exactly who he says he is addressing:
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
that is NOT 'unbelievers' -- that is those who HAVE OBTAINED (past tense) LIKE PRECIOUS FAITH WITH US

Handmaid, you seem to dwell on two things --
1. that there are UNBELIEVERS mixed in with believers everywhere - that may well be true; but Peter was specifically addressing believers
2. that there are baptized people (in water) that have not received the Holy Spirit - for sure that no doubt happens; it does not 'happen automatically', I agree.
For me, being immersed and being baptized in the Holy Ghost was about a year apart.
But there were some in the New Testament who got the Ghost FIRST - and then Peter said "Can any now refuse water baptism to them, seeing as how the Holy Ghost has fallen on them like it did on us at the beginning?"
And some had "only John's baptism" and needed to get the Ghost later

But these things are not really relevant to OSAS vs OSnAS, in fact, tasting of the powers of the world to come could be taken as already having the Holy Spirit -- yet still caution is against falling away.

Your post here is probably as close as you are going to agree with me. But I trust our Father to bring you along. I have to go. Revival tonight.

 

[Anto9us]

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

These are the two conditions for getting saved and staying saved.

This thread mentioned early on about people, now atheists, who USED TO confess and believe these things, but fell away.

Also, I have seen numerous posts by people who believed, went atheist, and came back to belief.

Can I ask myself -- every day, maybe several times a day -- can I still confess and believe and REALLY MEAN IT?

If I can answer YES -- I have not lost my salvation.

 

[Anto9us]

Enjoy the revival, Handmaid!

 

[Principatus]

I heard a story once about a dude who joined some devil worship cult in rebellion against God. In the meeting the leader up the front said that he could sense a Christian in their midst, and whoever it was, they weren't welcome and should never come again. Just goes to show really.

If you could lose your salvation because of unloyalty, then it would be your loyalty that saves you. It isn't, its the blood of Christ. For sure if you are unloyal and turn your back on God then you'll regret it when you do meet your Maker! But you won't perish forever, that would make the blood of Christ meaningless, like it wasn't powerful enough to carry out the promise God gave you when you received Him when you were 12 or whatever.

I for one am absolutely terrified of hell, chilled to my absolute core. The worst part is that I'm a terrible sinner with sinful habits and should *totally* be there. What is the difference between me and the average heathen? I'm certainly not better than any of them. Its only the blood of Christ, there is no other contributing factor to my salvation at all.

Imagine you're way up on a high mountain, halfway up a sheer cliff. The path you're on is only about 10cm wide, on one side there's the vertical cliff and on the other side there's a drop going down for miles. If you fall you will plummet to your death - one little step out of place and you could lose your footing.

If you could see the drop, how could you get anything done? How would you be able to walk? You'd be too terrified. But the whole time there has been a fog hiding everything. You can hardly see your own feet below you. A voice calls out to you and tells you abut the drop, and says "hey there's a safety net, you want me to put it out?" You believe him and say yes please. It goes out, but you can see neither the sheer drop nor the safety net through the fog.

Do you know that the safety net is there? You have to take the guy's word for it. You have to trust Him. Now here's the thing: He is trustworthy, but you are not. You cannot and should not trust yourself. You could lose your footing and fall at any time, i.e. forsake the Lord and fall into sin. But He's not going to break His promise and take away the safety net just because you're not trustworthy. He put the safety net up *because* you're not trustworthy, that's the point. You're a sinner. Sinners sin.

But having seen neither the drop, the net nor the man behind the voice, you might not realise how big the drop is, how secure the net is, or how trustworthy the stranger is. Neither have you seen yourself or your surroundings in the fog so you don't realise how screwed you really were without the man and the net. You have no idea of how serious the situation is. You're just a confused guy lost in the fog.

If you're walking around thinking you can lose your salvation by forsaking Christ, you are naïve - you know neither your own untrustworthiness nor Christ's trustworthiness. You are unaware of how terrifying hell is because if you had any idea at all, and you thought there was still a chance you could go there, you would go insane and not be able to function in daily life. You are unaware of the safety and security in redemption, because thinking that you could do anything to lose it is synonymous to thinking that you are the 'weakest link' that could break the whole chain. No, you are not a part of the chain. If you were, you would be very, very doomed because you are very, very weak and Christ would have died for nothing.

Forsaking Christ and falling into sin is terrible and you shouldn't do it. But if you think that you are more powerful than Christ because you can cancel out His redemption, you do not truly understand the situation you are in.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

This is a very interesting debate so I'll put a hypothetical spin on it

You can ask God to leave - pack up and go and move out? So therefore you can lose your salvation or forfeit it?

You may decide this for whatever reason - suppose you like the wild side of life and find God interfering in your daily activities ( and correcting you ) a bit of a personal intrusion. It's not quite what you expected when signing up? Maybe it didn't live up to the promises and expectations and you lose trust.

Now if the Devil realizes the above to be true - he's going to go all out to get you to reject God after being saved. Cause you problems - get you to blame it on God, Get you to hate God, Get you to say God Move out and really mean it?

If we can lose our Salvation - Can we lose our Salvation by deception?

King Saul was anointed of God - whatever happened to him?
Can Satan enter into Christians?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The Holy Spirit does more than merely "seal" us, of course. He also "washes" us and regenerates us spiritually (Titus 3:5). He is the Source of the believer's spiritual life (Romans 8: 10-11), the means of the believer's second birth. He it is who transforms the believer, making the believer a "new creature in Christ" in whom "old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17) ...

Certainly the Holy Spirit does more than seal us. I was replying to the claim that seal = ensure faith continues. The other things the Spirit does which you mention (washing/baptism, new birth/new life in Christ, etc. all follow faith - they do not precede it. (Gal 23:6-7, Rome 2:3-4, etc.)

John 10:28-29
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Please check the Greek verbs of this verse, as most English translations opt for ease of reading over accurace. These verse, in the Greek, say

"I give (present, ongoing) them eternal life, and they shall not be destroyed unto the age (e.g. they shall not be destroyed utterly/forever), and nothing can seize (future) them from my hand. My Father, who gives (present, ongoing) them to me is greater than all, and so it is not possible for anyone to seize (present) them from the hand of my Father."

Nothing in the verses prevents them from willingly leaving the shepherd - it just shows no one (such as the 'wolves' Jesus mentioned) having the power to seize them from the Father. Eternal life is an ongoing gift of God culminating in a final eternal life at the judgement whereby they will not be destroyed. It's beyond the scope of the passage to claim it proves man cannot cease faith and reject the promises or eternal life that God gives.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

This is a blessing Paul prays for the believers, not a statement that they can't reject faith. He reminds them of the hope that Christ has the power to keep them - it is not a statement that they cannot leave the protection of that power by rejecting faith. Again, it is beyond the scope of this passage to interpret it as making commentary on whether someone will continue in faith or not.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that

He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Faith is not part of the good work Jesus began in us. He began the good work because we responded to the gospel in faith (by God's gracious choice, not because faith merited it.) That good work includes the indwelling Spirit, the mind of Christ, being conformed to Christ, growing in Christ, etc. Jesus continues to give us nutrients to grow as we remain in Him, allowing us to bear fruit (II Pet 1:3-11, etc.) It is again beyond the scope of the passage to claim it mandates that we remain in Christ and continue in faith.

And so on. You see, our salvation is not us-contingent, but Christ-contingent. He is our salvation; we are not.

We are not our salvation, certainly. But our salvation is dependent on our faith in Christ's work to bring us salvation. Without faith, we cannot claim the promise of salvation. (I Pet 1:3-9, I Jn 2:27-28, I Cor 15:23) Salvation doesn't create faith, and faith does not create salvation. But our faith in Christ is the requirement by which God chooses to apply Christ's saving work to our account.
God brought salvation through Christ, not through man (Heb 11:32-40, Isaiah 63:5, Titus 3:3-8). However, we do need faith to receive salvation (I Pet 1:3-9, John 3:14-17, II Tim 2:10-13, II Tim 3:10-17, I John 2:24-25, Rom 1:16-17, Gal 3:7-14, Rom 10:5-13). Faith is the persuasion that it is Christ who has the power to save us.

Hebrews 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

....


Does this verse demand the view that the "falling away" is from salvation? No. An unsaved "tare" may "fall away" from their proximity to the saving truth of the Gospel and participation in the life of the Church, and from a life that is, at least in its outward appearance, adhering to the teachings and example of Christ. Doing so puts the lost person well and truly beyond the pale. Having totally forsaken all association with the things of Christ and his Bride, such a person is fatally inoculated against repentance that leads to salvation.

I already went through this passage extensively in post #79 where I showed that the language (such as falling away and partaker) are extremely explicit in the Greek, as well as other evidences as to why the theory that they never really had faith fail.

And yes, the passage specifically demands that the falling away be from everything just described, including their former life-change due to partaking with the Spirit. There is no way to 'lessen' the force of the text to merely be about knowing about the Spirit or knowing people who had the spirit and seeing some miracles, etc. Furthermore, the term for fall away is explicit - not about mere proximity to but active participation and affiliation with before one's defection.

John 15:1-8 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

What is the main thrust of this passage? Fruitfulness as a consequence of abiding in Christ.

“Every branch that bears not fruit He takes away...”

“Every branch that bears fruit He prunes it that it may bring forth more fruit.”

“The branch cannot bear fruit of itself...”

“He who abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit...”

“...bear much fruit.”

Why is the unfruitful branch “taken away” and “cast into the fire”? Is the branch being judged and punished? No. Consider the following Scripture concerning the unfruitful vine:

Ezekiel 15:1-5 (NKJV)
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2 "Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?
4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work?
5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it. How much less will it be useful for any work when the fire has devoured it, and it is burned?

It's interesting that you stopped there, without citing God's conclusion:

"Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: As I have given the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest as fuel for the fire, so will I treat the people living in Jerusalem. I will set my face against them. Although they have come out of the fire, the fire will yet consume them. And when I set my face against them, you will know that I am the Lord. I will make the land desolate because they have been unfaithful, declares the Sovereign Lord.” Ezek 15:6-8

That certainly seems to support, not contradict, that the useless vines would be consumed, not redeemed.

John 15:1-6 is concerned with the means to spiritual fruitfulness, not with teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine. The branches cast into the fire picture the utter spiritual uselessness of unfruitful branches, not of salvation lost. A vine is only useful when it is fruitful. Likewise, a believer who is not abiding in Christ cannot be spiritually fruitful and is, consequently, useless. That is the teaching of this passage.

In the passage Jesus is clearly speaking of being cut *out of Him* and not mere uselessness. Nor can he merely be speaking of works being burnt up - it isn't useless fruit being burned, but branches/people that do not remain in Him.

"He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful." Jn 15:2 That certainly sounds like no longer being in Christ, not merely being unproductive in Christ. In fact, it sounds a lot like the warning of Rom 11:20-22:
"Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

Jn 15:6 "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. " The branch isn't just useless - it is thrown away. The term can also be translated as 'Cast outside' - which you might recognize from many verses such as Matt 22:13 and Matt 25:30 where people are cast outside into darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Heb 6:4-6, a passage which in context is of former Christians who fell away, not mere 'lack of fruit' continues in Heb 6:7-8 with ""Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and it's curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned." If the useless thorns and thistles were the real problem, why would it need clarified that the *land* will be cursed and burned? After other comments, Paul exhorts them in Heb 6:12 "We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." The direct implication is that those people who fell away are not inheriting the promise, as they did not patiently hold to faith.

 

[Anto9us]

I have heard a variation of the SHEER DROP FROM A CLIFF story...

A guy is on a cliff like that -- and DOES FALL! But halfway down he sees a bush growing out of the face of the cliff -- he grabs it -- it stops his fall. But he is just hanging there helpless.

He begins to scream towards the top of the cliff -- "Is there anybody up there?"

A voice answers "Yes."

"Well who is it?

"It's Jesus."

"Well - can ya help me?"

"Yeah - sure - but you've got to let go of the bush first."

The guy hangs there a while longer, and finally screams up at the top:

"IS THERE ANYBODY ELSE UP THERE?"

We know there's no one else up there to help - Jesus is the only one - but the action of letting go of the bush is THE INDIVIDUAL's RESPONSE to the free gift of Salvation.

It is a SYNERGY of what God does and what man does (albeit what man does is small compared to what God does). But there is the CONFESSING and BELIEVING on the part of the individual.

"No one can come to me unless my Father DRAWS him"
DRAW means leads, entices, influences, seeks, but it does not say "No one can come to me unless my Father SLAM-DUNKS him into believing" - does not say "No one can come to me unless my Father FORCES HIM"
A variation of that verse in another gospel says "No one can come to me unless it be granted him of my Father"
The OPPORTUNITY is GRANTED -- the decision is the individual's

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

If I depart from my house, is it no longer my house? Obviously not. Since no man's salvation is dependent upon his resolve, or effort, or will, his departing from the faith does not make him un-born spiritually. See the Parable of the Prodigal Son. His departure from his father never dissolved his relationship to his father. However far he went from his father and however awfully he lived, he was always his father's son.

If you depart from someone else's house who graciously allowed you to stay there, then it is no longer your place of residence. We do not 'own' the body of Christ - it isn't our house, but God's. God gives those with faith the right to live there. That right exists as long as we remain. But if we reject faith and willingly depart? We no longer hold that God-granted privilege.

The prodigal parable is actually a picture of the Greeks coming to Christ in faith and the Jews resenting it, not a picture of a Christian departing and returning. But he didn't 'own' his father's house, nor did he have any remaining claim on it or right to it once he took his inheritance and left (in so doing, it was clear that the house was not part of his inheritance.) Furthermore, by taking his inheritance early, in Jewish culture this was a severing of the legal relationship with the father - it was viewed as a declaration on the son's part that his father was 'already dead' to him. After the prodigal came back the father *chose* to take the son back and declared him to be his son - this is why he said his son was 'dead, but now alive again.' Not unborn - dead.

If you join an army but then defect, you are considered a deserter and no longer considered a part of that people.

If you are a citizen in country A but deliberately renounce your citizenship, move, and apply for citizenship elsewhere - you can't claim the rights of citizens of people A.

'Unborn' is a strange term - scripture doesn't use it nor imply it. Returning to the world isn't becoming unborn, rather it is the new life dying and returning once more to sin - a reverse of our dying to sin and being raised to Christ. A dug up plant doesn't become 'un-planted' as if never planted, but becomes 'uprooted'.

Look at how the joyful hearer is described: the seed had not rooted in him. How this equates to "he was saved" is beyond me. Not all belief saves. Again, see James 2:19. The joyful hearer illustrates that a positive emotional response to the Gospel does not necessarily mean one is born again.

I agree not all belief saves - scripture is clear on that. A temporary belief doesn't save - belief has to be ongoing to hold eternal life (Jn 3:16, I Pet 1:8-9, Jn 6:47, etc.) A dead faith cannot save, either (James 2:14.)

But we aren't talking about who has final salvation at the judgement or who presently holds salvation now. We are talking about whether or not this person had faith in Christ before he/she fell away. Jesus is clear that he/she did. First, they *welcome/receive* the word with joy - they aren't just happy to hear it. This is the same term used of the believers who welcomed the gospel as the word of God in I Thess 2:13. Second, Jesus says "they believe for a while." If Jesus somehow meant this to 'really mean' that they "didn't believe" then we cannot trust anything at all He says on faith. There is no contextual reason to think that Jesus means the opposite of what He actually says. Furthermore, the seeds on the good soil have faith to - there is no contextual reason to believe He is using the same term in vastly different ways. Jesus specifically states that they did believe, but only temporarily. They then fell away/departed. Departed from what? The faith that they had!

The Greek says that these people on the rocky soil *do not hold/possess (active) a root.* This is why their faith didn't last - they didn't root themselves into the soil, even over time. And if we aren't pulling nutrients from Christ (the vine) it's pretty hard to hold fast to faith when hard times come. Their failure to continue in faith wasn't blamed on an initial lack of faith, but directly on them not developing a root to sustain that faith. (We see this mirrored in Lk 8:15 by the seeds on good soil, who didn't just have faith but also retained it and had perseverance.)

This is a favorite passage among SAL folk for promoting the idea that a saved person may lose their salvation. But, again, they are typically imposing a pre-supposed doctrinal view on what is written. Their thinking goes: How does one escape the pollution of the World but by being saved? Of course, the passage does not ever use the word “salvation,” or “regenerated,” or “saved,” or “converted,” or the phrase “born-again,” - terminology common to discussion of salvation in other places in the New Testament - but instead describes only those who have gained a knowledge (Gk. - recognize, acknowledge, “know upon some mark”) of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is strongly suggestive, not of a truly converted person, but of one who has only an intellectual apprehension of the nature and salvific work of Christ. What, then, did Peter mean by “escaped the pollutions of the World”? Well, he wrote in chapter 2 specifically of false teachers and it is these false teachers to whom he was referring when he wrote of those who had escaped the pollutions of the World by a knowledge of the Saviour only to be entangled in them again. Nothing in Peter's description of false teachers in chapter 2 of his second letter suggests he thought they were genuinely born-again. Their “escape from the pollutions of the world” was not internal, spiritual and genuine, but external and false.

How do we escape the corruption of world? That's pretty explicit in scripture since the very same sermon/letter gives the answer:

II Pet 1:2-5
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge;…"

So we escape the corruption of the world by God's promises, the "true knowledge" of God, and everything else He gives to those with faith!! Only those with faith receive these promises. And if only those people with faith can escape the corruption of the world through this true knowledge, then it is logically mandated that the false teachers Peter later mentions also once had faith.

Note Peter's use here again of 'true knowledge' - epignosis, contrasted with the regular virtue of knowledge which we add to faith which is just 'gnosis' or other Greek terms that are more abiguous as to whether they mean just knowledge or truth or something more. Epignosis/true knowledge references a relational and participatory knowledge of God - not a shallow head knowledge. (Eph 1:17, Phil 1:9, Col 1:10, Phil 1:6, etc.)

Why would Peter use a term in it's clear and normal sense in II Pet 1:2 but turn around and mean something completely different with it in II Pet 2:20-22? There is no contextual reason he would gut or reverse the meaning - indeed it would seem to contradict the argument he has been building.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If gaining Salvation is a free choice, why cant losing Salvation also be a free choice?

It can be.

The new man, because of his nature, believes and receives salvation.

But the new man, also because of his nature, refuses to walk away from salvation.

Salvation is by grace through faith.

Sanctification is also by grace through faith.

The doctrine of salvation and sanctification by grace through faith isn't exactly rocket science to understand.

God is the author and the finisher of our faith.

He who began a good work in you will complete in until the day of Christ Jesus.

Some men simply do not believe that it was the Father's grace which brought them to the Son and thus began the assured process of us being conformed to the image of the Son.

It's only because of pride that some men refuse to believe and teach this very simple doctrine.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

It can be.

The new man, because of his nature, believes and receives salvation.

But the new man, also because of his nature, refuses to walk away from salvation.

Salvation is by grace through faith.

Sanctification is also by grace through faith.

The doctrine of salvation and sanctification by grace through faith isn't exactly rocket science to understand.

H

It's only because of pride that some men refuse to believe and teach this very simple doctrine.

We cannot become a new man unless we believe - we can't become new *to* believe. Unless you are merely talking about God strengthening our faith as we continue to walk with Him - that follows belief. But our new life in Christ, our new nature, is given only after we respond to the gospel in faith. (Gal 3:2-3, I Pet 1:3-9, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 6:1-11, Gal 3:26-27, etc.)

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come into being." II Cor 5:17

The new life is conditional on being in Christ.

And as wonderful as it would be to claim that our new life in the Spirit with the mind of Christ would make us refuse to walk away from faith - that isn't stated in scripture. It's contradicted a number of times, actually. (Heb 6:4-8, Lk 8:13, Heb 10:26-31, II Pet 2:20-22, I Tim 1:19, etc.) Unfortunately, just as we still struggle with sin while on Earth, Christians also must be careful to stand firm in faith as it is not a guarantee that we simply will never reject it.

 

[sdowney717]

Saved persons are entirely His

We cannot become a new man unless we believe - we can't become new *to* believe. Unless you are merely talking about God strengthening our faith as we continue to walk with Him - that follows belief. But our new life in Christ, our new nature, is given only after we respond to the gospel in faith. (Gal 3:2-3, I Pet 1:3-9, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 6:1-11, Gal 3:26-27, etc.)

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come into being." II Cor 5:17

The new life is conditional on being in Christ.

And as wonderful as it would be to claim that our new life in the Spirit with the mind of Christ would make us refuse to walk away from faith - that isn't stated in scripture. It's contradicted a number of times, actually. (Heb 6:4-8, Lk 8:13, Heb 10:26-31, II Pet 2:20-22, I Tim 1:19, etc.) Unfortunately, just as we still struggle with sin while on Earth, Christians also must be careful to stand firm in faith as it is not a guarantee that we simply will never reject it.

Fake, false, misleading, treacherous and sad is your theology.
Saved persons are entirely His workmanship.
That grace from God and our calling from God was given to us before time began, that we would believe in Christ and be His people, and that was according to His purpose and will for US, not all men.

2 Timothy 1
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Marvin Knox]

We cannot become a new man unless we believe - we can't become new *to* believe. Unless you are merely talking about God strengthening our faith as we continue to walk with Him - that follows belief. But our new life in Christ, our new nature, is given only after

None of the scriptures you gave say what you indicate they say.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come into being." II Cor 5:17
The new life is conditional on being in Christ.

That doesn't logically follow from that scripture.

God has chosen the foolish things etc.​

 

[Anto9us]

Fake, false, misleading, treacherous and sad is your theology.

Jennifer's theology is right on, sdowney717 - yours is ATE UP.

that was according to His purpose and will for US, not all men.

"His purpose and will for US, not all men"

So you separate yourself from "all men", obviously, you count yourself to have apprehended and the 'US' you speak of is THE ELECT - rather presumptous, is that not?

 

[Anto9us]

"is in Christ"

conditional -- on being presently IN CHRIST, not 'having ONCE BEEN in Christ'

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Saved persons are entirely His

Fake, false, misleading, treacherous and sad is your theology.
Saved persons are entirely His workmanship.
That grace from God and our calling from God was given to us before time began, that we would believe in Christ and be His people, and that was according to His purpose and will for US, not all men.

Which verse I referenced did you take exception to? Was there a contextual or textual reason you differed in what they said? And you seem to be misunderstanding my point. Our *Salvation* is all Christ's work, yes. But God doesn't grant salvation to someone unless they have faith. That's not because faith 'merits' salvation, but because faith is the method God chose and is a humble recognition of *Christ's* righteousness and work.

We are included in Christ when we heard the gospel and believed. (Eph 1:13.) The gospel (Christ's work) only saves us if we believe (I Cor 15:2.) Then, only in Christ, are we made a new creation (II Cor 5:17). The works of washing and renewal, baptizing us into Christ are done by God - but following our faith, not so that we can later get faith. (Gal 3:2-3, I Pet 1:3-9, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 6:1-11, Gal 3:26-27, etc.)

2 Timothy 1
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

That verse shows God saves us according to His purpose and not our own works. Faith is not a work of the law. That salvation be by faith and not works and that Christ raise up all who believe in Him *is* God's purpose (Rom 1:17, Gal 3:22-24, Eph 1:9-10, Jn 6:28-29, Jn 6:40, etc.) Note the very, very key phrase in the passage you posted: "Jesus Christ who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" - not 'Jesus who brought new life so you could have faith in the gospel!'

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Nothing in that passage places new life before faith. Indeed it clarifies that the salvation it describes, God making us alive together with Christ, is through faith! (This is clarified again in Eph 2:13) What did God prepare beforehand for us? Our faith? No faith isn't a 'good work' nor is it implied that faith is part of the workmanship. He is speaking of the good works that follow salvation as we walk by the Spirit (II Pet 1:3-11.) He is speaking of the good works we will do in Christ as we are now part of His body (Eph 2:21-22.)

 

[sdowney717]

Which verse I referenced did you take exception to? Was there a contextual or textual reason you differed in what they said? And you seem to be misunderstanding my point. Our *Salvation* is all Christ's work, yes. But God doesn't grant salvation to someone unless they have faith. That's not because faith 'merits' salvation, but because faith is the method God chose and is a humble recognition of *Christ's* righteousness and work.

We are included in Christ when we heard the gospel and believed. (Eph 1:13.) The gospel (Christ's work) only saves us if we believe (I Cor 15:2.) Then, only in Christ, are we made a new creation (II Cor 5:17). The works of washing and renewal, baptizing us into Christ are done by God - but following our faith, not so that we can later get faith. (Gal 3:2-3, I Pet 1:3-9, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 6:1-11, Gal 3:26-27, etc.)



That verse shows God saves us according to His purpose and not our own works. Faith is not a work of the law. That salvation be by faith and not works and that Christ raise up all who believe in Him *is* God's purpose (Rom 1:17, Gal 3:22-24, Eph 1:9-10, Jn 6:28-29, Jn 6:40, etc.) Note the very, very key phrase in the passage you posted: "Jesus Christ who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" - not 'Jesus who brought new life so you could have faith in the gospel!'



Nothing in that passage places new life before faith. Indeed it clarifies that the salvation it describes, God making us alive together with Christ, is through faith! (This is clarified again in Eph 2:13) What did God prepare beforehand for us? Our faith? No faith isn't a 'good work' nor is it implied that faith is part of the workmanship. He is speaking of the good works that follow salvation as we walk by the Spirit (II Pet 1:3-11.) He is speaking of the good works we will do in Christ as we are now part of His body (Eph 2:21-22.)

Wrong you are again, I do not plan to continue the arguing over words with you any further.

John 3:3 says this,
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

That word 'see' does not mean 'enter', or experience, it means much more. It means you can not pay attention to or even perceive the Spirit, Christ, the kingdom of God, salvation in Christ, it is all just foolishness to the carnal mind.

this is what 'see ' means, and until you are born of God, you can not do any of this here, so you certainly can not believe then in Christ as God come in the flesh to save you from your sin.
I wonder if you can 'see' that!
I do not make up this stuff as I go along either....
And I will not respond to you again, unless you change your mind.

Lexicon :: Strong's G1492 - eidō
εἴδω
Transliteration
eidō

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

That doesn't logically follow from that scripture.
​

How does II Cor 5:17 not clearly and logically demand that someone be in Christ to have the new creation? The Greek is a very explicit conditional:

"Therefore, if anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation. Behold the old things have passed away, new things have come."

This is an unambiguous 'if A, then B.' Logically, one cannot have B without A. Therefore, one cannot claim that B is necessary to *get* A.

Being in Christ is logically prior to becoming a new creation, even if they occur in 'time' at or around the same moment.

So then the question becomes, how do we become 'in Christ?' That scripture is very clear about - when we believe.

"And in Him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, having heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation." Eph 1:13

"Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham...[Jesus] redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal 3:7-14

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:25-26

"...know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:16-20

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand....For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!... We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Excerpts from Romans 5 & 6)

Note there again, our unity with Christ and subsequent new life stem from faith - they do not precede it!
"

 

[redleghunter]

Have you ever read the story of the prodigal son?

He came home.

 

[sdowney717]

He came home.

He was always a son of the Father too.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes. If our salvation ultimately hinges on our decision, our decision can end it.

That's true. We are told often here that man is sovereign in his own salvation. I guess if he "owns" his own salvation he can deep six it too.