Why Do Evolutionists Always Battle the Theist and Not the Discussion?

[DogmaHunter]

Tell me, if we are, according to evolution, essentially just animals, why would you feel the right to judge me if I followed my instincts and killed someone....

Because we live in a cooperative society where we depend on eachother. And allowing people to just run around causing suffering, is detrimental to that society.
Moral behaviour is the glue that holds society together and which brings about progress, well-being and prosperity.
Immoral behavriour does the opposite.

some one I perceived as a threat, you know survival of the fittest?

Statements like this, expose vast ignorance on evolution.
"fit" in that sentence does NOT mean "stronger, bigger, faster, smarter, inherently superior"...

Do you pass that judgement on to other animals that exhibit the same behaviour? Why not?

We do with some, actually. Unsurprisingly, we do that with animals that are also some kind of member of our society. Namely with pets. I'm sure you've heared about dogs being put down after they've attacked someone.

Off course, dogs aren't the same kind of moral agents as humans, so obviously they don't get the exact same treatment.

Please consider trying to answer my question as it's genuine... I can never figure out the purpose of behaving morally if we are nothing more than an evolved animal.

I assure you that you can.

I propose a thought exercise. It will require some honesty on your part. It might not be that easy. But please try, do your best. I assure you that you can do it.
The exercise consists of answering a question without mentioning or referring to God, the bible or anything religious.

Here's the question: "why don't you run around raping and killing random women you meet in the streets?"

The point is to really answer the question, thus without mentioning religion. So just a one liner saying "cause that is immoral" will not do. Why is it immoral. Why don't you engage in immoral behaviour. Why do you think you/others shouldn't engage in immoral behaviour.

Go for the practical answer. There's no need to mention religion. Or evolution for that matter.

Think about it.

I've answered your genuine question honestly. I'll aks you to return the favor. It's a very genuine question as well.

Looking forward to reading your answer...

 

[Chinchilla]

This right here is one of the most callous, unfeeling and asinine ideas I have read in a long time.

To justify cancer in children by arguing that your so called loving and benevolent god not only invented this heinous disease but also inflicts young people with it to punish their parents is an idea I find reprehensible. And then add that it's all ok because they get to go to heaven!!!!! - I am so glad that I am not constricted by these "mind forged manacles" as Hitchens called religious belief.

Rant over.

Becaue from your point of view deat his worst thing possible , from God's point of view stealing his glory by sinning against him is worst thing possible .

I'd say that story about Daniel is much worse than kids dying at age 15 due to cancer because Daniel was punished directly for what he has done , these children are suffering due to Adam's curse

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So these kids are blameless but suffer due to Adam's sin .

I'm not God's lawyer he is the judge and decided that this punishment is enought , he even show mercy to Daniel because according to law Daniel should be put to death .

 

[Chinchilla]

So you totally just claimed that God caused cancer. Awesome.

False.


Evidence please.

No they do not.

Seeing as how what you apparently think are great points are actually a pitiful grasp of basic biology, I see little reason to entertain your 'arguments' further.

If you studied genetics you would know that about 70% mutations end with thymine , so your whole DNA would be all thymine over time . They are not 25% each like you assume .

 

[Shemjaza]

If you studied genetics you would know that about 70% mutations end with thymine , so your whole DNA would be all thymine over time . They are not 25% each like you assume .

It still needs to be neutral or positive or it will be selected against.

 

[AV1611VET]

In what way are we different?

We are tripartite: body, soul, spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

So your argument is " Bad things happen therefore God does not exist "

Nope, not at all. that bad things happen is part of life and no postulates ofany Gods are required, let alone an explanation why the almighty creator of the universe doesn't want to do anything about it even though it requires no effort whatsoever.

What would you say about something smaller scale like plane .
Plane crash , 300 people die , would your argument still be " Bad things happen therefore plane does not exist " ?

Plane is the reason for the deaths, and that'd be empirical, wouldn't you agree? Where do you see a God giving babied diarrhea, or childhood leukemia, or infections that will kill them? You don't. It's a natural thing and the only way it'll be fixed is if we do something about it ourselves. Science turns out to be the best way to do that and it is demonstrably effective at it. Certainly more effective than prayers or superstitious beliefs and rituals by a very big margin.

Probably not , you would assume something went wrong with the plane or the pilot made mistake , but when people invoke God you assume nothing could go wrong and nobody could make mistake.

So God is incapable, do I have that right? Is that what you're saying?

If we live according to that view then we should next time we see plane crash on tv , it did not really exist no need to douse the fire .

except the obvious fact you can see it - unlike any Gods who seem to manifest, and/or have no ability to do anything in this reality.

How can there be love without free will ? If he smite every evildoer there would be nobody left

Does God have free will? Do you think God can love? is God incapable of making something perfect?

If he is the one who he claims to be then he said he will rise up everybody anyways from the dead . From our perspective death is the worst thing from his it's nothing .

Will we have free will then? Will disease and death still occur?

Yes it would , he said multiple times that he is too holy to have any sin tolerated by him . If he claims to be perfect in everything he is perfect judge aswell , if bribed judge let guilty person free he is partaker in crime isnt he ?

so nobody is in heaven then? After all, we're all sinners according to your theology, or is there some sort of bribe your God is open to, say some kind of substitutional sacrificial lamb of some type?

Free will

You could say the same of angels but they won't be forgiven because there is no sacrifice for them according to Bible.

so no free will in heaven then? What would you be in heaven? You wouldn't be yourself, because you wouldn't have free will... is that right?

Because God can't make another God because God is eternal and can't be made .
Anything less than God could fall short of being God and thus sin given free will .

so no heaven then.

What is love ?
and when did God feed humans to sharks ?

If you believe in the bible then didn't God feed humans to Satan, is Satan worse than a shark?

 

[Chinchilla]

We are tripartite: body, soul, spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I'd say that Adam had body, soul and spirit before he sinned and only body and soul after he sinned . That's why David was crying to God for not taking his Spirit from him because he had none otherwise . We now have all 3 after pentecost .

Nope, not at all. that bad things happen is part of life and no postulates ofany Gods are required, let alone an explanation why the almighty creator of the universe doesn't want to do anything about it even though it requires no effort whatsoever.

Plane is the reason for the deaths, and that'd be empirical, wouldn't you agree? Where do you see a God giving babied diarrhea, or childhood leukemia, or infections that will kill them? You don't. It's a natural thing and the only way it'll be fixed is if we do something about it ourselves. Science turns out to be the best way to do that and it is demonstrably effective at it. Certainly more effective than prayers or superstitious beliefs and rituals by a very big margin.

So God is incapable, do I have that right? Is that what you're saying?

except the obvious fact you can see it - unlike any Gods who seem to manifest, and/or have no ability to do anything in this reality.

Does God have free will? Do you think God can love?

Will we have free will then? Will disease and death still occur?

so nobody is in heaven then? After all, we're all sinners according to your theology, or is there some sort of bribe your God is open to, say some kind of substitutional sacrificial lamb of some type?

so no free will in heaven then? What would you be in heaven? You wouldn't be yourself, because you wouldn't have free will... is that right?

so no heaven then.

If you believe in the bible then didn't God feed humans to Satan, is Satan worse than a shark?

I don't believe that God feed humans to Satan , Bible says that he decided to die for them to rescue them from Satan yet before he created the world .
I don't deny that God use humans for his purpose and to his glory , could he tell his prophet to escape rather than leaving him to be burnt alive ? Yes .
Multiple times you can see in Bible that God wants both to love , forgive and show mercy but is the judge at the same time , for example story of Jonah .

God know thet he needed to punish people from Ninivah for thier evil deeds ( like sacrificing children to Baal to be burnt alive ).
Because of that he told Jonah to preach repentance from sins so he won't need to destroy them but can show mercy.
Jonah in the end did God's will and God turned away from doing evil to Ninivah and could show them mercy.

So yes he has free will , but that does not mean God can do everything , for example he can't sin or let somebody steal his glory .

If God was ignorant about these humans then he could just not tell Jonah to preach repentance and destroy them .

so no free will in heaven then? What would you be in heaven? You wouldn't be yourself, because you wouldn't have free will... is that right?

I was thinking about that and it seem like there is free will but there is no possible way to sin . It is not possible to lust after somebody because there is no sex in heaven .

Free will does not mean that you make the choices but you have free will to choose from what's available.

If you think that you have free will to make choices right now then choose to make anti-gravity force that would be

There are physicall laws that must be obeyed and there are spiritual laws that ought to be obeyed for example "you should not murder " . You know in your hearth that murder is wrong but you can decide to disobey it and murder somebody .

Animals don't seem to cry after fighting each other and murdering the alpha to take his place .

 

[Jimmy D]

Becaue from your point of view deat his worst thing possible , from God's point of view stealing his glory by sinning against him is worst thing possible .

I'd say that story about Daniel is much worse than kids dying at age 15 due to cancer because Daniel was punished directly for what he has done , these children are suffering due to Adam's curse

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So these kids are blameless but suffer due to Adam's sin .

I'm not God's lawyer he is the judge and decided that this punishment is enought , he even show mercy to Daniel because according to law Daniel should be put to death .

On a more positive note....

How do you feel about the fact that we're gradually gaining ground in the war against your "god's punishment"?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Really?

What's this then?

Thousands of unborn foetuses incinerated to heat UK hospitals

Sensationalism. Seriously, when was the last time you threw a lamb or calf foetus on the fire to turn up the heat? a foetus doesn't burn terribly well and in fact requires fuel in order to incinerate biological waste, it isn't fuel itself.

What would you have done in this situations, if you were the boss?

It doesn't matter what I would have done.

If Bug said [whatever] didn't happen, he would be wrong.

well, neither did saline solution burn them to death, nor were they burned as fuel, so what I said is not wrong.

The fact is, hospitals and clinics have massive amounts of biological waste. I'm asking what your solution would have been? And it does matter, because you troll us with this stupid article with regularity.

Bug is wrong.

and that is a factually incorrect statement unless you can show how saline solution sets fetuses on fire, how fetuses are even combustible to start with. I'm with Hitchslap on knowing what you'd do with the constant flow of discarded biological and infectious waste from medical facilities.

Afraid of the question?

Obviously. There's no way he could actually think he hasn't been shown up many, many times. Compartmentalisation is Strong in this one...

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I don't believe that God feed humans to Satan

Sure he does. Who created Satan? Who created Hell? Who created the rules by which souls are judged and sent there?

Bible says that he decided to die for them to rescue them from Satan yet before he created the world .
I don't deny that God use humans for his purpose and to his glory , could he tell his prophet to escape rather than leaving him to be burnt alive ? Yes .
Multiple times you can see in Bible that God wants both to love , forgive and show mercy but is the judge at the same time , for example story of Jonah .

God know thet he needed to punish people from Ninivah for thier evil deeds ( like sacrificing children to Baal to be burnt alive ).
Because of that he told Jonah to preach repentance from sins so he won't need to destroy them but can show mercy.
Jonah in the end did God's will and God turned away from doing evil to Ninivah and could show them mercy.

Why should I believe anything the Bible says? To me, it's something written by unknown authors who didn't understand the universe around them.

So yes he has free will , but that does not mean God can do everything , for example he can't sin or let somebody steal his glory .

so wouldn't that be a definition thing? after all, if God orders you to kill your son, is that a sin? On the other hand, if I was your superior general in an army where you are a private and I ordered you to kill innocent civilians, who is the criminal?

If God was ignorant about these humans then he could just not tell Jonah to preach repentance and destroy them .

Well, God has a very well established history of doing just that. All the first borns of Egypt? the Midianites? Canaanites? Amalekites?

I was thinking about that and it seem like there is free will but there is no possible way to sin . It is not possible to lust after somebody because there is no sex in heaven .

Free will does not mean that you make the choices but you have free will to choose from what's available.

So why not create Earth like this? Wouldn't that have solved everyone's problem? God would be happy, We would be happy, no way to Sin because he wouldn't have to plant a forbidden fruit bearing tree in the garden amongst all the fruit we could eat, etc.

You just pointed out how easy it would be to have created a sin free existence for everyone and you aren't even a God (although with a little nudge in the right directionfrom me... ).

If you think that you have free will to make choices right now then choose to make anti-gravity force that would be

could God choose to make anti-gravity force that would be ?

There are physicall laws that must be obeyed and there are spiritual laws that ought to be obeyed for example "you should not murder " . You know in your hearth that murder is wrong but you can decide to disobey it and murder somebody .

Sure. I could own slaves, or sell my raped daughter to her rapist for half price but I wouldn't do either of those things now, would I?

Animals don't seem to cry after fighting each other and murdering the alpha to take his place .

Sure they do - animals show remorse just like we do. You should lookup some of the research in this arena - even youtube videos are plentiful.

 

[AV1611VET]

well, neither did saline solution burn them to death, nor were they burned as fuel, so what I said is not wrong.

Wrong on both counts:

Do saline abortions, where babies are burned in salt, still happen in the U.S.?

SNOPES

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Well, either your god is not all loving, or he's not all powerful. We already know he's not all knowing.

Or He gave us freedom of will. But I guess some would prefer to be a robot with no freedom of choice. With freedom comes both good and bad.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Or He gave us freedom of will. But I guess some would prefer to be a robot with no freedom of choice. With freedom comes both good and bad.

Free will is pretty illusory. Did you have a choice of birth, parentage, nationality, ethnicity, economic status, or religion when you were a child?

Also, you can't choose options that aren't available to you.

You also can't choose options you don't know about.

 

[HitchSlap]

Or He gave us freedom of will. But I guess some would prefer to be a robot with no freedom of choice. With freedom comes both good and bad.

At what point did you choose “free will”?

 

[Jimmy D]

But I guess some would prefer to be a robot with no freedom of choice.

Really? Who would rather be a robot with no freedom of choice?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Free will is pretty illusory. Did you have a choice of birth, parentage, nationality, ethnicity, economic status, or religion when you were a child?

You have a choice from the moment you become self aware about how to act. It’s people that cause suffering to other people by their own free will.

Who your parents were is irrelevant. Many people born into poverty have risen to wealth through the choices they made.

Believing one has no choice because of situation, ethnics, etc is just a cop out.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

At what point did you choose “free will”?

Every single moment of the day with every choice I make.

Perhaps your life is directed from the moment you wake up, but I make my own choices.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Every single moment of the day with every choice I make.

Perhaps your life is directed from the moment you wake up, but I make my own choices.

Also, you can't choose options that aren't available to you.

You also can't choose options you don't know about.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Wrong on both counts:

Do saline abortions, where babies are burned in salt, still happen in the U.S.?

SNOPES

Do you even read what you link? First one is not an authoritative source of any kind, it's an opinion piece - opinion from non-medical and agenda driven laypeople at that. Nowhere in the medical literature is there any talk of burning out a fetus.

Second link (SNOPES! the Debunking Website!!) points out that there is yet to be any evidence put forth from the allegations made by more scaremongering "opinion press" articles:

"Claim: Medical waste that included human tissue was shipped from British Columbia to be incinerated at a power plant in Oregon."

"Origins: On 21 April 2014, the Canadian publication B.C. Catholic published an article reporting that biomedical waste from health facilities in the Canadian province of British Columbia — waste which included the remains of miscarried children and aborted fetuses — was being shipped to a power plant in the state Oregon for incineration:"

"According to Portland, Oregon, television station KOIN, a few days after the story broke Marion County commissioners claimed they were unaware of the practice (referring obliquely to “this material”) and moved to end incineration of medical waste at the Covanta Marion plant. Covanta Marion plant officials maintained that the medical waste program was run and managed by the county and stated they would no longer accept receipt of medical waste until they were assured it no longer contained the “alleged material”:"

"Although the B.C. Health Ministry stated the Covanta Marion plant has been receiving shipments of medical waste that include “human tissue” and “fetal tissue,” specific information documenting that such waste included aborted fetuses has not yet been provided."
​

Still interested to know what you think should be done with all the medical and biological/infectious waste left over from medical procedures, AV?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Do you even read what you link? First one is not an authoritative source of any kind, it's an opinion piece - opinion from non-medical and agenda driven laypeople at that. Nowhere in the medical literature is there any talk of burning out a fetus.

Second link (SNOPES! the Debunking Website!!) points out that there is yet to be any evidence put forth from the allegations made by more scaremongering "opinion press" articles:

"Claim: Medical waste that included human tissue was shipped from British Columbia to be incinerated at a power plant in Oregon."

"Origins: On 21 April 2014, the Canadian publication B.C. Catholic published an article reporting that biomedical waste from health facilities in the Canadian province of British Columbia — waste which included the remains of miscarried children and aborted fetuses — was being shipped to a power plant in the state Oregon for incineration:"

"According to Portland, Oregon, television station KOIN, a few days after the story broke Marion County commissioners claimed they were unaware of the practice (referring obliquely to “this material”) and moved to end incineration of medical waste at the Covanta Marion plant. Covanta Marion plant officials maintained that the medical waste program was run and managed by the county and stated they would no longer accept receipt of medical waste until they were assured it no longer contained the “alleged material”:"

"Although the B.C. Health Ministry stated the Covanta Marion plant has been receiving shipments of medical waste that include “human tissue” and “fetal tissue,” specific information documenting that such waste included aborted fetuses has not yet been provided."
​

Still interested to know what you think should be done with all the medical and biological/infectious waste left over from medical procedures, AV?

Apparently you don't know how things work in fundamentalist circles: lack of proof is PROOF of a conspiracy. Therefore, if there is a conspiracy to hide the facts, the thing actually happened!