OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[EmSw]

However, consider what the apostles said in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-11, esp. verse 10.

Where did I ever say the yoke of the law? I have been saying the commandments Jesus gave us. You do know the commandments He gave us, right? I have also said works of charity, not works of the law.

 

[EmSw]

I’ve addressed this with you in prior posts. We cannot form an entire doctrine on one verse.

But you can believe it if that's your desire.

 

[EmSw]

I agree. Time and time again I have discovered that those who will tell others they must keep the commandments to be saved show by their own conduct toward brothers and sisters in Christ that they are not doing so themselves.

I've never said you must keep His commandments. That is your choice. I'm just telling what Jesus said, and He can tell to keep His commandments. You were the one who said it was impossible to keep His commandments. If that's true, then you must keep breaking them.

 

[amariselle]

Well, well, well, again, you have added something which Jesus did not tell us. Where do you find Jesus speaking about substitutionary atonement?

You have many times emphasized the OT, so let’s look there first:

Isaiah 53:
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And also confirmed in the NT:

2 Corinthians 5:
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 3:
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree...

Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 9:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Peter 2:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

So, you can reject such verses because they are not “written in red”, or you can choose to believe what they say.

 

[amariselle]

But you can believe it if that's your desire.

I believe it, I just don’t agree with you about what it ultimately means. (Considering context and the full counsel of God)

 

[EmSw]

Scripture is clear, Israel did know of God’s promise of salvation and their coming Messiah. Jesus Himself confirmed this when He told the religious leaders that the Scriptures point to Him.

Everyone who has been or will ever be saved is saved the same way. There is no other Name.

Why was God not their Savior?

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt,

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, and there is no Savior besides Me.

Isaiah 45:15
Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!

Isaiah 45:21
Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me.

Isaiah 49:26
“I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh, And they will become drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

Isaiah 60:16
“You will also suck the milk of nations And suck the breast of kings; then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I have been the Lord your God Since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no Savior besides Me.

Israel had a Savior, do you agree? How did the Savior say they would receive life? Do you think there are two Saviors?

 

[EmSw]

You have many times emphasized the OT, so let’s look there first:

Isaiah 53:
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And also confirmed in the NT:

2 Corinthians 5:
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 3:
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree...

Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 9:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Peter 2:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

So, you can reject such verses because they are not “written in red”, or you can choose to believe what they say.

Is this speaking of the Savior of the Old Testament?

 

[EmSw]

I believe it, I just don’t agree with you about what it ultimately means. (Considering context and the full counsel of God)

You can take it to mean whatever you want. As Jesus said, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. You also have the choice to obey the Savior, or shrug it off. But don't keep telling me how to be justified by disobeying Jesus.

 

[amariselle]

I've never said you must keep His commandments. That is your choice. I'm just telling what Jesus said, and He can tell to keep His commandments. You were the one who said it was impossible to keep His commandments. If that's true, then you must keep breaking them.

Who has ever kept the commandments? If the Law could save, Christ’s sacrifice was completely unnecessary.

Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[amariselle]

You can take it to mean whatever you want. As Jesus said, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. You also have the choice to obey the Savior, or shrug it off. But don't keep telling me how to be justified by disobeying Jesus.

Please provide the direct quote where I told you or anyone else how to be justified by disobeying Jesus.

Otherwise, please refrain from putting words my mouth.

Thanks!

 

[amariselle]

Is this speaking of the Savior of the Old Testament?

The Saviour of the OT? There is only one Saviour.

 

[amariselle]

Why was God not their Savior?

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt,

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, and there is no Savior besides Me.

Isaiah 45:15
Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!

Isaiah 45:21
Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me.

Isaiah 49:26
“I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh, And they will become drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

Isaiah 60:16
“You will also suck the milk of nations And suck the breast of kings; then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I have been the Lord your God Since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no Savior besides Me.

Israel had a Savior, do you agree? How did the Savior say they would receive life? Do you think there are two Saviors?

There is only one Saviour. Period.

 

[EmSw]

The Saviour of the OT? There is only one Saviour.

Did you not read the passages I gave about God being the Savior in the Old Testament? He also said there is no savior besides Him.

 

[EmSw]

There is only one Saviour. Period.

So, was this Jesus speaking in the Old Testament? Was this Jesus who said this -

Ezekiel 18
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

When did Jesus change His mind?

 

[jamesbond007]

Thank you for your opinion. It is as your theology, read, and then rejected and forgotten.

You my friend are Biblically incorrect and it seems to me that you are propagating Catholic theology of TRADITIONS in disguise.

I'm done because I do not enjoy repeating myself to someone who does not have the perspicacity to know what is in the Bible. What goes over your head is this is what's in the Bible. It has nothing to do with me. Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide. And Billy Graham went a bit beyond in his senior years, but who's to judge but Jesus?

What you did answer indirectly was a question I had when following the trial of Aaron Hernandez in 2017. I follow sports and not football so much, but a friend follows the New England Patriots and likes to talk about them. I thought it was a compelling story because Hernandez was an All-American at Florida and becoming a pass catching hero for Patriots fans, but his past caught up with him. Hernandez, age 27, was found guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison. He committed suicide in prison by hanging and left a biblical verse.

"Former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez wrote a reference to a biblical passage in ink on his forehead and in blood on the wall of his prison cell before he hanged himself with a bed sheet, state police said in an investigative report released Thursday.

Hernandez was found April 19 at the Souza-Baranowski prison, where he was serving a life sentence in the 2013 murder of a man who had been dating his fiancee’s sister. His suicide came five days after he was acquitted in the 2012 gun slayings of two men in a car.

The report released by state police says “John 3:16” was written on Hernandez’s forehead and on the cell wall.

The Bible passage says: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Instead of serving out his sentence for his crimes, he took the easy way out. Jesus stands before all of us. He is like gravity in that we cannot escape no matter where we go in the universe. One day we will all stand before him for Judgement Day. My question was why did Hernandez go through the trouble of doing the Bible verse? And you answered it. I don't think Aaron Hernandez read the Bible the correct way.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Do you cheat on your wife? Is this what Jesus said to do? Do you lie to your wife? Why do you have problems keeping His commandments? Do you steal from your wife? Do you hate your wife? What kind of believer lives this way? That is insanity. Do you have problems with any of these?

If you merely look upon a woman with lustfull thoughts you are as guilty as an adulterer.....I have a problem with that one. How about you?

 

[EmSw]

If you merely look upon a woman with lustfull thoughts you are as guilty as an adulterer.....I have a problem with that one. How about you?

I have to say I had a problem with that. I've had to fight the temptation, but with the Lord's help, I've overcome that. If I am tempted with that now, it is so much easier to say no and see that person as a child of the Creator.

It is now my desire to love one of the opposite sex, rather than just a scattered love of the opposite sex.

Thanks for sharing that; it is definitely a deep-seated desire within men to lust after women.

 

[justbyfaith]

Okay, I did read them. Where does it say we need to keep His commandments perfectly? If you want to start your own doctrine, go get yourself 12 disciples and teach them your ways.

Okay, now read 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, 1 Corinthians 2:13-14, Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27.

You cannot see what is plainly in front of you. The previous scriptures show clearly that God requires us to continue in all things written in the book of the law, to do them; if we are going to be redeemed through keeping the law (Galatians 3:10-14). That if we keep the whole law and offend in one point, we are guilty of breaking all of it (James 2:10). And that Jesus commands us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

You tell me how these scriptures don't show that the requirement is to keep the law perfectly, if we are going to be justified by the keeping of the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here again, you flat out deny Jesus' own words. Faith alone salvation can't keep from denying Jesus' words.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If you would integrate the verses I have given into your theology rather than denying them, you might come to an understanding of how they fit together nicely. I see how they do; do you?

I'll give you a hint: Jesus' statement in Matthew 19:17 is Jesus using the law as a schoolmaster to lead the rich young ruler to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). And after being justified by faith alone in Christ alone, what I believe is that He places His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5) which is the fulfilling of the commandments (Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10).

However, you cannot have this love apart from real faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5). And that means not trusting in your works to save you (Romans 4:1-8, Matthew 7:22, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20).

We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19) and gave salvation to us freely as a gift (Romans 5:15-19, Romans 6:23).

I serve Him and seek to obey Him out of sheer gratitude for what He has done for me.

Why do you seek to obey Him?

From your doctrine I would say it is because you think you have to because it is required. And it is required of you on the side of the Cross where you are working. Even perfection.

For me, it is not required; and yet I serve Him purely out of love; out of thanksgiving for His awesome act of love towards me.

I am forgiven and my sins will not be held against me any more. If I fail to keep His law, His grace is sufficient for me and will hold me up. Nevertheless, because of His grace, I "labour more than they all." (1 Corinthians 15:10). And because His Holy Spirit dwells in me through faith in Him (Galatians 3:14), I obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

 

[Major1]

I'm done because I do not enjoy repeating myself to someone who does not have the perspicacity to know what is in the Bible. What goes over your head is this is what's in the Bible. It has nothing to do with me. Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide. And Billy Graham went a bit beyond in his senior years, but who's to judge but Jesus?

What you did answer indirectly was a question I had when following the trial of Aaron Hernandez in 2017. I follow sports and not football so much, but a friend follows the New England Patriots and likes to talk about them. I thought it was a compelling story because Hernandez was an All-American at Florida and becoming a pass catching hero for Patriots fans, but his past caught up with him. Hernandez, age 27, was found guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison. He committed suicide in prison by hanging and left a biblical verse.

"Former New England Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez wrote a reference to a biblical passage in ink on his forehead and in blood on the wall of his prison cell before he hanged himself with a bed sheet, state police said in an investigative report released Thursday.

Hernandez was found April 19 at the Souza-Baranowski prison, where he was serving a life sentence in the 2013 murder of a man who had been dating his fiancee’s sister. His suicide came five days after he was acquitted in the 2012 gun slayings of two men in a car.

The report released by state police says “John 3:16” was written on Hernandez’s forehead and on the cell wall.

The Bible passage says: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Instead of serving out his sentence for his crimes, he took the easy way out. Jesus stands before all of us. He is like gravity in that we cannot escape no matter where we go in the universe. One day we will all stand before him for Judgement Day. My question was why did Hernandez go through the trouble of doing the Bible verse? And you answered it. My question was why did Hernandez go through the trouble of doing the Bible verse? And you answered it. I don't think Aaron Hernandez read the Bible the correct way.

I do not remember responding to you with anything concerning Mr. Hernandez.

Maybe you have confused me with someone else. What is the comment # of this response!

I do however agree 100% with you in that …." I don't think Aaron Hernandez read the Bible the correct way."

That seems to be the problem with lots of people.