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LDS What other words does the BOM use in the BC era which are out of place?

He is the way

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Charles Dickens wrote Oliver Twist when he was 25.

Jack Kerouac wrote On the Road at age 29.

All of Ian Fleming's James Bond books that followed (Casino Royale which took 2 months) were written in six weeks or less.

Mary Shelley completed the Frankenstein manuscript when she was 20.
You are not comparing apples to apples. Oliver Twist took two years or more to write and is much shorter, On the Road is also much shorter, Ian Fleming was much older and the book is much shorter, Frankenstein is much shorter and none of these books could ever be considered scripture.
 
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Anto9us

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none of these books could ever be considered scripture

IMO, same can be said of BOM and other Mormon writings...

I have changed my avatar to a pic of the 120-foot long scroll of telegraph paper that Jack Kerouac put in his typewriter when he wrote ON THE ROAD, which is alleged to have been written in 3 weeks.

It is disputed that Kerouac really worked on and revised this book for a lot longer. His dog ate the original ending off the scroll. The scroll is now on tour, appearing in a glass case where all 120 feet is stretched out visible.

Really, it seems only the final typing of ON THE ROAD was done in 3 weeks; Kerouac used a roll of telegraph paper in his typewriter so he wouldn't have to keep changing sheets of paper; didn't want to be interrupted. He was on Benzedrine.

We now return you to

THE TOPIC

which is that BOM uses words and phrases that were anachronistic to the times the alleged plates were allegedly written on.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Most of the "Danite" nonsense came from another excommunicated member, Bill Hickman; Hickman had been convicted of a capitol offense, and made everything up as a false confession to save himself from the hangman.

Now there is another side to his story. J.H. Beadle actually wrote Hickman's book, the family is not sure how much of it was from Hickman himself;

Here is an example of his writing, it wasn't just Mormons he looked down on and nasty about.

"The books and articles of J. H. Beadle are a specimen of the nineteenth century Protestant conscience at work. Particularly suggestive is Beadle's disgust with the lower-class life which frontier conditions induced. Almost gleefully, Beadle mailed in reports of abject poverty, inferring that this condition was somehow a product of lack of character. Santa Fe, to take a non-Utah example, consisted of "mud-walled squares filled with pigs, chickens, jackasses, children, ugly old women, and greasers." The height of a "greaser's ambition," he wrote, was "a palacio of dried mud, a meal of corn and pimento, and a slip of corn-shuck filled with tobacco and rolled into a cigarette."

Davis Bitton in his Guide to Mormon Diaries & Autobiographies notes that....

"The account was written in 1871 while Hickman was awaiting trial for the murder of Yates. Beadle uses the word 'Danite,' Hickman does not, nor does he describe an organized body that might be given that name. His tales of crime usually deal with one or two individuals sent by Brigham Young to 'use up' some victim of the Mormon leader. ...." BDAintro

'Victim of the Mormon leader' maybe Hickman's embellishment however he never turned on BY as the laws was trying to get him to do.

The following is a letter from Hickman to Young, he admits to drinking to much whiskey, probably an alcoholic but can't seem to understand why he is in so much trouble, alcoholics are always in a state of denials.

I know I have drank a great deal of whisky, but it is no object for me to quit. If you say it is best, I will never taste another drop. If you say leave my Gentile associations, I am willing. I’m sure it is no pleasure to me. No person has seen me drunk in the streets, not withstanding all my whiskeying. ...I lecture them at home with my family once a week. We attend our prayers regular. Notwithstanding my reported wickedness. This you can learn from the teachers of our ward or our neighbors—our aim and intentions is to do right and I have faults and imperfections and do wrong, but when ever I know it, I repent as fast as I can—I may have many faults that I do not know of—Bro. Brigham please forgive me of what I have done wrong. I know this is the work of the almighty. I know who you are. It has long since been shown to me, long since. I delight in the Latter day work. I hope whether I live or die whether I obtain [line missing].

I know I have been profane but I scarse [sic] ever use the name of God. When I am very mad I check myself I do not guard against it as I keep trying to overcome it--.There are many other things I would like to say but I am tired. I have been 3 days writing—it may sound flat but it [is] the best I can do in my feeble state.

May the lord bless, perserve and prosper you is my prayer all the day long.

Wm. A. Hickman

He was excommunicated after this and in another letter he still does not understand,

Dear Brigham,

I feel bad to have so many false charges brought against me, I feel bad when I think you do not feel well towards me. What am I to do when I do not know of wrong I have done, how or of what can I repent I wish you would point out a coarse [sic] and have it under your immediate notice for me to take, not under Gardner I asked you once to release me from his jurisdiction and understood you had. I hope you will remember me and do me justice. I ask nothing more.

Wm. A. Hickman

I know I was always your friend at home or aboard and true in every sense of the word. I do hope you’ll be kind to me—how bad I feel you do not know.

He went to his death bed denying he ever did anything wrong and blamed people who framed him.
 
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Anto9us

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BOM
Jacob 6:10-11
10. And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable,and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire is endless torment.
11. O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.

Between B.C. 544 and 421

Phrases from John's Revelation, and sayings of Jesus.

Plagiarism, anachronism, fraud...
 
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He is the way

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Jacob 6:10-11
10. And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable,and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire is endless torment.
11. O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.

Between B.C. 544 and 421

Phrases from John's Revelation, and sayings of Jesus.

Plagiarism, anachronism, fraud...
The word of God is eternal.
 
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Anto9us

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"The estimates vary, but as of January 21, 2017, the Pew Research Institute estimates that there are about 1.8 billion Muslims in the world; nearly one-fourth of the world’s population today."

How Many Muslims Are There in the World?

The Quran is scripture "to a lot of people" also -- doesn't make it true.
 
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drstevej

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... none of these books could ever be considered scripture.


The Book of Zelph can be proven true as noted in Melph 5:4-11

4. And I promise thee that if ye ask if this book be not true, and roll a pair of dice with a sincere heart, and desire exceedingly for the book to be true, yea, the dice shall reveal the truthfulness of this book unto thee.

5. And if ye roll a seven, yea, it doth mean this book be a true book, and ye shall rejoice at the knowledge of the truthfulness of this book. For no learned man shall sway thy opinion with supposed evidences against this book, for once the dice have spoken the debate is over.

6. And if ye roll not a seven, yea, fear not that this book be not true, for this book is true, yea, even do I promise.

7. And something that is true cannot be proven untrue. Wherefore, if ye roll not a seven, it be not the fault of this book, and it doth prove not that this book be untrue, because this book is true, wherefore, it cannot be proven untrue.

8. Wherefore, if ye roll not a seven it was an error, and ye must roll the dice again, yea, even with a more sincere heart, and even desiring more to know the truth.

9. And if ye again roll not a seven, and if ye roll not a seven three times, yea, it be the fault of the dice. Wherefore, retrieve different dice, and roll again.

10. And ye must keep rolling dice until ye roll seven. And after the manner in which ye roll a seven, behold, ye shall rejoice at thy knowledge of the truthfulness of this book.

11. And I bear witness unto thee that ye shall know this book is true through the dice.

More objective than a burning bosom.
 
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Ironhold

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All of Ian Fleming's James Bond books that followed (Casino Royale which took 2 months) were written in six weeks or less.

Let's start with this one.

Do you know what Fleming did during WWII?

Military intelligence.

Ian Fleming - Wikipedia

He was with Britain's Naval Intelligence Division during WWII, and had a rather lustrous career that saw him take responsibility for two units and a key intelligence operation.

Some sources also allege that Fleming had at least a casual, if not working, relationship with the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare itself.

Special Operations Executive - Wikipedia

(BTW, actor Sir Christopher Lee is confirmed as having been a member of the Ministry.)

Pretty much everything Fleming did Bond-wise was him drawing on his own experiences as a military intelligence operative coupled with bits and pieces of material from the Ministry.

So yeah... he already had things in place for something like this.

In contrast, a combination of factors ranging from "the included fudge recipe was terrible" to "legal action over co-authorship credits for one of his Bond books" to "a series of medical events" meant that it took the better part of three years for Fleming to finish his one non-Bond work, "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang: The Magical Car"; it would end up being published posthumously.

Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang - Wikipedia

Mary Shelley completed the Frankenstein manuscript when she was 20.

Long as I'm here...

Mary Shelley - Wikipedia

"Frankenstein" may have been written in a hurry, but its origin is storied.

Shelley spent a summer at a villa in the company of poet and lover Percy Bysshe Shelley, infamous writer Lord Byron, and physician John William Polidori (who would later gain fame for creating vampire fiction as we know it), among others.

The summer was unpleasant, with rain forcing everyone indoors for days at a time. This led to extended conversations about German ghost stories, the nature of life itself, and the like. Shelley spent an entire month under these circumstances, ultimately culminating in a particularly vivid waking dream that kicked the final details off and gave her the inspiration to write.

That's the kind of perfect creative storm which is so rare to come by.
 
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drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
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upload_2018-6-7_12-17-9.jpeg

Melph 5:4, 8-11
4. And I promise thee that if ye ask if this book be not true, and roll a pair of dice with a sincere heart, and desire exceedingly for the book to be true, yea, the dice shall reveal the truthfulness of this book unto thee.

8. Wherefore, if ye roll not a seven it was an error, and ye must roll the dice again, yea, even with a more sincere heart, and even desiring more to know the truth.

9. And if ye again roll not a seven, and if ye roll not a seven three times, yea, it be the fault of the dice. Wherefore, retrieve different dice, and roll again.

10. And ye must keep rolling dice until ye roll seven. And after the manner in which ye roll a seven, behold, ye shall rejoice at thy knowledge of the truthfulness of this book.

11. And I bear witness unto thee that ye shall know this book is true through the dice.
 
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drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
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Did you really just post that?

It is more objective than a burning bosom and a better read than the BoM in my opinion.

Jacob 7:27 (BOM)
27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; ... and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.
 
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mmksparbud

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It is more objective than a burning bosom and a better read than the BoM in my opinion.

Jacob 7:27 (BOM)
27 And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; ... and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.


Good grief!! I thought this Melph you quoted was from the BOM!!!-----this adieu is yours, right, not BOM?
 
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drstevej

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Good grief!! I thought this Melph you quoted was from the BOM!!!-----this adieu is yours, right, not BOM?

Melph is not the BOM.

However, Jacob 7:27 is:

... And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.

 
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mmksparbud

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Melph is not the BOM.

However, Jacob 7:27 is:

... And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.


Oh, NO!! The Brethren. adieu is from the BOM!!! French!!!!???? ROTFL!!!! As if the Kings
English was not enough----but French!! Right--Inspired by the Holy Spirit---while He was eating a croissant? For heavens sake!! The language was originally Celtic, Latin then Gallic Latin!! Adieu wouldn't come in until after the Roman Empire!!
 
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withwonderingawe

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BOM
Jacob 6:10-11
10. And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable,and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire is endless torment.
11. O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.

Between B.C. 544 and 421

Phrases from John's Revelation, and sayings of Jesus.

Plagiarism, anachronism, fraud...

Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

Now where did John borrow that from;

Isa 34
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

It’s a lake of burning pitch and John shortened it down sum but he did plagiarize it.

Nephi and Jacob also had Isaiah.

Jacob 6:10-11
10. And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire is endless torment.
11. O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.

Yeah Joseph translated "lake of fire" because that is what he was most familiar with but he more closely followed Isiah than Paul did.


*“…, and enter in at the strait gate…”

‘The strait gate’ has an actual physical meaning, it’s the East Gate.

“…it is the gate that gives the most direct access to the temple mount—if a person could pass through the arches of the Eastern Gate, he would be very close to where the Jewish temple used to stand.” However "Ezekiel specifically says the gate he saw is “the outer gate of the sanctuary” (Ezekiel 44:1); that is, it’s a gate of the temple court, not a gate of the city."

The Temple represents heaven and of course Eternal Life found there.

The usage of ‘East’ goes clear back to Gen 2 “And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden” and again in Gen 3 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”


Eze 43
1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

It is the East Gate is the one the Lord will suddenly come to his temple. It’s an idiom which Jesus and Jacob would have understood.

So if a prophet on either continent has the Holy Spirit prompt him to use the scripture they are each familiar with to convey the will of the Lord is that wrong? Should either of them teach another gospel or is God the same today and tomorrow?
 
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