LDS What other words does the BOM use in the BC era which are out of place?

[mmksparbud]

You have to get use to the idea that people lied about what Joseph Smith did and didn't do even those who called themselves Christian.

Perhaps you sh9uld get used to the idea that people lied about Joseph Smith did or didn't do---even, (particularly) those who called themselves Mormon.

 

[He is the way]

Perhaps you sh9uld get used to the idea that people lied about Joseph Smith did or didn't do---even, (particularly) those who called themselves Mormon.

A lot of people, who called themselves Mormon" lied about Joseph Smith after they were excommunicated. There were people who stole cattle and blamed it on the Mormons.

 

[He is the way]

"Smith copied the KJV blindly, not showing awareness of translation problems and errors in the KJV. Yet the Book of Mormon is not a slavish copy of the KJV—there are numerous words deleted, revised, or added to the text. Rather than translate from an ancient document, Smith seems to have quoted from Matthew 5-7 of the KJV and to have made certain revisions as a response to the English text of the KJV."What Are 1769 KJV Edition Errors Doing in Book of Mormon?

So how do you account for the fact that Joseph Smith was able to do this by looking at a stone in a hat with no reference material? Apparently the Book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible.

 

[withwonderingawe]

"For several years preceding the appearance of his book [the Book of Mormon], he was about the country in the character of a glass-looker: pretending, by means of a certain stone, or glass, which he put in a hat, to be able to discover lost goods, hidden treasures, mines of gold and silver. &c.... In this town, a wealthy farmer, named Josiah Stowell, together with others, spent large sums of money in digging for hidden money, which this Smith pretended he could see, and told them where to dig; but they never found their treasure. At length the public, becoming wearied with the base imposition which he was palming upon the credulity of the ignorant, for the purpose of sponging his living from their earnings, had him arrested as a disorderly person, tried and condemned before a court of Justice." (Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate, April 9, 1831, page 120)

Now this is an example of how the anti writer works. I don't know who you are copying and pasting from but they deliberately cut off the funniest part;

"At length the public, becoming wearied with the base imposition which he was palming upon the credulity of the ignorant, for the purpose of sponging his living from their earnings, had him arrested as a disorderly person, tried and condemned before a court of justice. But, considering his youth, (he then being a minor), thinking he might reform his conduct, he was designedly allowed to escape."

Youth? Minor? He was 21 years old!

Allow to escape? Really?

 

[Anto9us]

Joseph Smith was able to do this by looking at a stone in a hat with no reference material

You are assuming that we BELIEVE that this 'stone in the hat' trick ACTUALLY HAPPENED -- I for one, do not.

 

[mmksparbud]

A lot of people, who called themselves Mormon" lied about Joseph Smith after they were excommunicated. There were people who stole cattle and blamed it on the Mormons.

Ex-communicated--as opposed to willingly left and were finally telling the truth now?

 

[Ironhold]

"
While the Kinderhook plates

As we've been trying to tell you, you need to study both sides of the matter.

The critics of the church you keep going for are only saying one side of it, and so much of their information is either wrong or false.

Forgeries related to Mormonism/Joseph Smith and the Kinderhook Plates - FairMormon

The statement that Joseph Smith supposedly made saying "I have translated" has been confirmed to have actually been written by scribe William Clayton, and was based on Joseph looking at a single character, which he manually compared to a guide book of known Egyptian characters.

That's as far as Joseph's "translation" effort went.

If Joseph had attempted a serious translation, then the people who created the plates wouldn't have waited until well after Joseph was dead to spring their "surprise".

 

[Ironhold]

Is this a true statement?

"Steve Christensen and Kathy Sheets were Hofmann's most tragic victims. But Hofmann also had three other financial victims: the LDS Church, which owns 446 Hofmann forgeries and whose history was challenged by some of Hofmann's more damaging distortions; coin and document dealer Al Rust; and Provo document collector Brent Ashworth."Tales of Hofmann: Forgeries, deceit continue to intrigue 20 years later

Forgeries related to Mormonism/Mark Hofmann - FairMormon

The church leadership was skeptical of the documents and said so publicly, but past a certain point it was clear that the only way to actually analyze them was to get them away from Hoffman.

In fact, that's why Hoffman started planting those bombs: he knew that if he didn't disrupt the process, the church would have document experts go over everything with a fine-toothed comb, something that was sure to turn up his deception.

 

[Ironhold]

From the false claims made about the Smithsonian Statement on the BOM, I do not see the sources used in that article you post a link to as reliable.

Did you even bother reading those, or just nay-say them?

I emailed the Smithsonian concerning the BOM Statement and they still stand by it which I posted elsewhere on this forum.

I assume you have a link?

 

[Ironhold]

Ex-communicated--as opposed to willingly left and were finally telling the truth now?

One of the unfortunate truths of the Christian Counter-Cult is that some of the loudest - and most infamous - voices among the anti-Mormon pundits were former members kicked for misconduct.

In fact, the first printed anti-Mormon work, "Mormonism Unveiled", was assembled by Philastus Hurlbut, who achieved the rare feat of being excommunicated twice. After the second time, his reputation as a violent alcoholic was such that the book's publisher put his own name on the work because he knew that the work wouldn't sell otherwise.

Most of the "Danite" nonsense came from another excommunicated member, Bill Hickman; Hickman had been convicted of a capitol offense, and made everything up as a false confession to save himself from the hangman.

More recent examples include Loftes Tryk (excommunicated upon conviction of a sexual offense, something he hid from his audiences) and J. Edward Decker (excommunicated for emotional cruelty to his first wife and an extended series of extra-marital affairs, something that came to light when his first wife surfaced with her copies of the divorce paperwork).

I myself ran into someone who made false claims about his exit, claims that unraveled once I and a few others asked questions he couldn't answer.

 

[Anto9us]

I don't believe there WERE any "metal plates" -- I don't believe Joseph Smith was 'visited' by angels or demons -- I feel he VISITED his own IMAGINATION.

There WAS NO "translation", imo, because there was nothing to translate FROM.

And I certainly do not believe in the outlandish translation process; this cockamaime tale of stone in a hat.

Look, I personally LIKE the Mormons on this forum -- insomuch as being fellow CF posters -- it is the Book of Mormon ITSELF that I cannot swallow; everything about it...

I believe that the verbatim sections of Isaiah that are in BOM -- well, I think JS just pulled out a King James Bible and copied from it; duh -- I also think he knew the KJV very well, which is why anachronistic words and phrases crept into writings he alleges were done by ancient "Israelites" -- words like CHURCH and BIBLE as we have talked about in this thread and others.

I don't buy into any 'plates' or witnesses of plates, or the testimony of scribes who wrote down what JS dictated as he supposedly looked into a hat.

I understand that Hofmann had forgeries -- Salamander Letter and all of that -- but to me THE WHOLE SHOOTIN MATCH of BOM is fraudulent, made-up, just his imagination

 

[He is the way]

You are assuming that we BELIEVE that this 'stone in the hat' trick ACTUALLY HAPPENED -- I for one, do not.

It is not as if there were no credible witnesses. He was able to transcribe the entire Book of Mormon in just 65 days at the age of 23.

 

[He is the way]

Ex-communicated--as opposed to willingly left and were finally telling the truth now?

Who are you referring to?

 

[mmksparbud]

One of the unfortunate truths of the Christian Counter-Cult is that some of the loudest - and most infamous - voices among the anti-Mormon pundits were former members kicked for misconduct.

In fact, the first printed anti-Mormon work, "Mormonism Unveiled", was assembled by Philastus Hurlbut, who achieved the rare feat of being excommunicated twice. After the second time, his reputation as a violent alcoholic was such that the book's publisher put his own name on the work because he knew that the work wouldn't sell otherwise.

Most of the "Danite" nonsense came from another excommunicated member, Bill Hickman; Hickman had been convicted of a capitol offense, and made everything up as a false confession to save himself from the hangman.

More recent examples include Loftes Tryk (excommunicated upon conviction of a sexual offense, something he hid from his audiences) and J. Edward Decker (excommunicated for emotional cruelty to his first wife and an extended series of extra-marital affairs, something that came to light when his first wife surfaced with her copies of the divorce paperwork).

I myself ran into someone who made false claims about his exit, claims that unraveled once I and a few others asked questions he couldn't answer.

And of course---Mormons don't lie---only Christians and ex-Mormons!

 

[He is the way]

I don't believe there WERE any "metal plates" -- I don't believe Joseph Smith was 'visited' by angels or demons -- I feel he VISITED his own IMAGINATION.

There WAS NO "translation", imo, because there was nothing to translate FROM.

And I certainly do not believe in the outlandish translation process; this cockamaime tale of stone in a hat.

Look, I personally LIKE the Mormons on this forum -- insomuch as being fellow CF posters -- it is the Book of Mormon ITSELF that I cannot swallow; everything about it...

I believe that the verbatim sections of Isaiah that are in BOM -- well, I think JS just pulled out a King James Bible and copied from it; duh -- I also think he knew the KJV very well, which is why anachronistic words and phrases crept into writings he alleges were done by ancient "Israelites" -- words like CHURCH and BIBLE as we have talked about in this thread and others.

I don't buy into any 'plates' or witnesses of plates, or the testimony of scribes who wrote down what JS dictated as he supposedly looked into a hat.

I understand that Hofmann had forgeries -- Salamander Letter and all of that -- but to me THE WHOLE SHOOTIN MATCH of BOM is fraudulent, made-up, just his imagination

There is not a 23 year old person in the whole world that would be able to dictate a book anything like the Book of Mormon in such a short time. Joseph Smith said:
(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:25)

25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

 

[Ironhold]

And of course---Mormons don't lie---only Christians and ex-Mormons!

As we've stated time and time again, there are elements of the Christian counter-cult that have adopted an "ends justify the means" approach to dealing with those groups that they regard as "cults". These elements work to discredit the larger movement.

 

[mmksparbud]

As we've stated time and time again, there are elements of the Christian counter-cult that have adopted an "ends justify the means" approach to dealing with those groups that they regard as "cults". These elements work to discredit the larger movement.

And you delude yourselves if you think that Mormons do not lie nd that all ex-Mormons do. And you can not fault Christians for wanting to show Mormons and the rest of the world, that you are indeed a cult and are not Christian. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but you want to be called a
Christian, when you are not and we must stand against that. You do not follow Jesus but JS. If the bible contradicts JS--you go with him, for you believe he has the truth. Believe it all you want--just do not insist that it is the bible and that Holy Spirit described in it, that you follow, for it is not. There is no politically correct way to say it. It is not meant as an insult, it is just the truth. No one has the right to use violence and abuse against you--but we do have the right to state where you are not Christian.

 

[drstevej]

There is not a 23 year old person in the whole world that would be able to dictate a book anything like the Book of Mormon in such a short time. Joseph Smith said:
(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:25)

Charles Dickens wrote Oliver Twist when he was 25.

Jack Kerouac wrote On the Road at age 29.

All of Ian Fleming's James Bond books that followed (Casino Royale which took 2 months) were written in six weeks or less.

Mary Shelley completed the Frankenstein manuscript when she was 20.

 

[drstevej]

How old was Josh Anderson when he wrote the Book of Zelph? How long did it take?

 

[BigDaddy4]

This trial was first published it in 1872, 46 years after the fact and then the original was conveniently lost.

Found this in the Joseph Smith papers;
"....Emily Pearsall, (the niece of the judge) who served as a Methodist missionary in Utah in the early 1870s. At some point, Pearsall reportedly “tore the leaves” pertaining to the case “out of the record.” In 1872, British journalist Charles Marshall visited Utah, where Pearsall permitted him to copy the “original papers” of Neely’s “judicial proceedings,” which he published in Fraser’s Magazine in England."

It was reprint several other times.

You have to get use to the idea that people lied about what Joseph Smith did and didn't do even those who called themselves Christian. Please note this is not a word for word transcript but someone's note about the count hearing.

Josiah Stowel was suppose to be the aggrieved party yet it is his nephews bringing the complaint. Josiah loved Joseph Smith, he was baptized into the Church and remained a good member his whole life. In this transcript says "he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did 'possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone..." Why?

Well the story is that Stowel had heard Joseph could find things and so he traveled to Palmyra to ask him. Joseph looked in his seer stone and described Stowel's home, a place he had never been. I hate to use the comparison but similar to how Jesus described Nathanael sitting under the fig tree. However is this story true, we don't know because there are some glaring falsehoods.



See they have Joseph testifying against himself.

Now compare the Thompson story
"Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money;..Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside the trunk, to guard it, ....but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging, "

To an affidavit by WILLIAM STAFFORD in 1833;

"... that he could also discover the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress......that he saw the spirit come up to the ring and as soon as it beheld the cone which we had formed around the rod, it caused the money to sink... "

Whoever wrote this up had a copy of Hurlbut Affidavits found in the first anti Mormon book called Mormonism Unvailed. He has rearranged the story and changed the wording to fit into this narrative.

The other problem is Joseph went to Stowel's home to dig for a silver mine not chest of money.

In Stowel's supposed testimony he says "once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill". As near as I can figure he is referring to a hill in Pennsylvania which was originally called Hog-Back- Hill, (1786). Then a Seminary was built on top of the the hill and it was renamed Seminary Hill. This burned down and then after the Civil War a large monument was built to honor the thousands of men who died in that war, that is when it was renamed Monument Hill.

Do you see the problem? This phony document was supposedly written in 1826 but the hill didn't get its name until after 1865. There are other hills which have monuments on them but they all seem to date back to the Civil War.

journals.psu.edu/wph/article/viewFile/3067/2898

Interesting that you would attempt to discredit this account based on the several "problems" you raise, but no doubt accept the First Vision as Scripture despite various problems with the lds official version.

1820 - supposedly happened (but evidence to support otherwise)
1832 - first known version written down by JS
1832-1843 - at least 10 different versions and accounts by various people, including JS
1842 - "official" version published (different than 1832 JS version)
1880 - 1842 "official" version canonized

But hey, "facts" only matter when is serves your purpose, right?