LDS What other words does the BOM use in the BC era which are out of place?

[mmksparbud]

Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

Now where did John borrow that from;

Isa 34
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

It’s a lake of burning pitch and John shortened it down sum but he did plagiarize it.

Nephi and Jacob also had Isaiah.

Jacob 6:10-11
10. And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire is endless torment.
11. O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.

Yeah Joseph translated "lake of fire" because that is what he was most familiar with but he more closely followed Isiah than Paul did.


*“…, and enter in at the strait gate…”

‘The strait gate’ has an actual physical meaning, it’s the East Gate.

“…it is the gate that gives the most direct access to the temple mount—if a person could pass through the arches of the Eastern Gate, he would be very close to where the Jewish temple used to stand.” However "Ezekiel specifically says the gate he saw is “the outer gate of the sanctuary” (Ezekiel 44:1); that is, it’s a gate of the temple court, not a gate of the city."

The Temple represents heaven and of course Eternal Life found there.

The usage of ‘East’ goes clear back to Gen 2 “And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden” and again in Gen 3 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”


Eze 43
1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

It is the East Gate is the one the Lord will suddenly come to his temple. It’s an idiom which Jesus and Jacob would have understood.

So if a prophet on either continent has the Holy Spirit prompt him to use the scripture they are each familiar with to convey the will of the Lord is that wrong? Should either of them teach another gospel or is God the same today and tomorrow?

And Jacob was familiar with French before it was in use??

 

[withwonderingawe]

Melph is not the BOM.

However, Jacob 7:27 is:

... And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.​

Jacob 7​

The Book of Jacob is a 7 chapter Chiasmus, the middle of it starts in chapter 4:9

1 For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth,
which earth was created by the power of his word.

1 Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

It goes on from there, the different verse share a theme;

3...that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men,

2 How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. …

1 For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth,
which earth was created by the power of his word.

1 Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

2, Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand.

3,…be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son,

In the first chapter in the first few verses there is this line

…wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven. And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates

He ends in the 7th chapter with

“…wherefore, I said unto my son Enos: Take these plates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had commanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands….”

Someday I’ll take the time to study it all the way through.


* Adieu is “Middle English, borrowed from Anglo-French a deu, a dieu, literally, "to God" or Godspeed or I commend you to God. It has been used by English speaking people since the 1300, it was common to use it when Joseph was living.

I found the following at FairMormon

“In 1737, William Whiston (1667-1752) produced a translation of The Life of Flavius Josephus, written by a Jew born in Jerusalem in A.D. 37. Whiston's translation reads, in part:

Thus have I set down the genealogy of my family as I have found it described in the public records, and so bid adieu to those who calumniate me...

Presumably, the critics would have us believe that Whiston is claiming that Josephus, a first century Jew, spoke French (a language not yet invented) because he uses the term adieu?”

Here is another one;

"Speaking after quoting Deuteronomy 33:9, the early Christian author Irenaeus (A.D. 115–202) had his ancient writings translated as follows:

But who are they that have left father and mother, and have said adieu to all their neighbours, on account of the word of God and His covenant, unless the disciples of the Lord?

Is this a legitimate translation, or was Irenaeus non-existent and the translator a fraud for using "adieu"?”

In 2 Thess 3 Paul ends his letter with “ The Lord be with you all.” if a translator were to simply write ‘adieu’ he would be conveying the same meaning and it would not be a fraud.

 

[mmksparbud]

The Book of Jacob is a 7 chapter Chiasmus, the middle of it starts in chapter 4:9

1 For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth,
which earth was created by the power of his word.

1 Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

It goes on from there, the different verse share a theme;

3...that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men,

2 How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. …

1 For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth,
which earth was created by the power of his word.

1 Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

2, Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand.

3,…be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son,

In the first chapter in the first few verses there is this line

…wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven. And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates

He ends in the 7th chapter with

“…wherefore, I said unto my son Enos: Take these plates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had commanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands….”

Someday I’ll take the time to study it all the way through.


* Adieu is “Middle English, borrowed from Anglo-French a deu, a dieu, literally, "to God" or Godspeed or I commend you to God. It has been used by English speaking people since the 1300, it was common to use it when Joseph was living.

I found the following at FairMormon

“In 1737, William Whiston (1667-1752) produced a translation of The Life of Flavius Josephus, written by a Jew born in Jerusalem in A.D. 37. Whiston's translation reads, in part:

Thus have I set down the genealogy of my family as I have found it described in the public records, and so bid adieu to those who calumniate me...

Presumably, the critics would have us believe that Whiston is claiming that Josephus, a first century Jew, spoke French (a language not yet invented) because he uses the term adieu?”

Here is another one;

"Speaking after quoting Deuteronomy 33:9, the early Christian author Irenaeus (A.D. 115–202) had his ancient writings translated as follows:

But who are they that have left father and mother, and have said adieu to all their neighbours, on account of the word of God and His covenant, unless the disciples of the Lord?

Is this a legitimate translation, or was Irenaeus non-existent and the translator a fraud for using "adieu"?”

In 2 Thess 3 Paul ends his letter with “ The Lord be with you all.” if a translator were to simply write ‘adieu’ he would be conveying the same meaning and it would not be a fraud.

Those translators lived at a time and area where that was used, they were older, men of the world and educated---JS was supposedly a small town country boy with no education, an unsophisticated 23 year old who is using a French term that would not have been used in his circle. It simply does not go with his social standing.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Those translators lived at a time and area where that was used, they were older, men of the world and educated---JS was supposedly a small town country boy with no education, an unsophisticated 23 year old who is using a French term that would not have been used in his circle. It simply does not go with his social standing.

So then....what?

 

[He is the way]

And Jacob was familiar with French before it was in use??

As far as I know Jacob did not speak French or English. Many of the words we use in our English language are from French beginnings. Does that surprise you?

 

[BigDaddy4]

French fries, French toast, French bread...

 

[mmksparbud]

So then....what?

LOL!---He is obviously not quite the simple, uneducated, country hick you all like to paint him as. A little more savvy than you all think, quite the imaginative weaver of tall tales. Not that you would agree or care.

As far as I know Jacob did not speak French or English.

No--not Jacob---JS is another story. For that to have been an accurate translation, it should have read more like the rest of the King's English, better yet, like a real translation of some sort of Hebrew--it just means farewell--literally--"to God'--as to say--'Go with God"---adieu simply wouldn't be the word to use by a simple country boy in the 1800's.

 

[He is the way]

French fries, French toast, French bread...

Debut, encore, rendezvous, entree, resume, dejavu, risque, and also touche, to name some of then.

 

[He is the way]

LOL!---He is obviously not quite the simple, uneducated, country hick you all like to paint him as. A little more savvy than you all think, quite the imaginative weaver of tall tales. Not that you would agree or care.



No--not Jacob---JS is another story. For that to have been an accurate translation, it should have read more like the rest of the King's English, better yet, like a real translation of some sort of Hebrew--it just means farewell--literally--"to God'--as to say--'Go with God"---adieu simply wouldn't be the word to use by a simple country boy in the 1800's.

So after many years of research someone comes up with something they deem to be a mistake in the Book of Mormon:
(Book of Mormon | Preface Title Page:2)

.....And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment–seat of Christ.

 

[withwonderingawe]

country hick

you don't think much of country folk

 

[mmksparbud]

you don't think much of country folk

Au contraire, my dear! It is you guys that want to paint him as just a simple little country hick. I have a very high regard for them. My grandmother on my fathers side was one---from Honduras, granted, but a little village girl that couldn't read or write---and sharp as a tack and I loved her and she married 2 wealthy Americans, (the 1st one died)--all 4 children were born American citizens. She came to this country to visit in her 70's, she was here about 3 weeks and she picked up many, many English words, more than most Latins that after 20 years here can't speak one word of English!
I've had several friends in this country who had country parents and grandparents. I lived in North Dakota in a small town for 4 1/2 years--country folk all over the place. Very real, down to earth, well mannered, soft spoken, very intelligent no matter what grade level of education they had. Very unsophisticated and thoroughly charming. a lot still retaining many Scandinavian words and foods.
And another thing, most children and grandchildren of people from other countries pick up smatterings of their ethnic background. JS was English,. Scottish and German---he would have picked up words from those languages.

 

[Anto9us]

Omni 1:25

...and believe in prophesying, and in revelations, and in the ministering of angels, and of the gift of speaking with tongues, and in the gift of interpreting languages...

allegedly written between 279 and 130 BC.

Today we have Cessationists and Continuists, regarding speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues, and prophesying. But nowhere else have I ever seen a mention of Tongues BEFORE PENTECOST.

Anachronism.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

It is not as if there were no credible witnesses. He was able to transcribe the entire Book of Mormon in just 65 days at the age of 23.

He may have dictated it in 65 working days (not 65 days straight, LDS.org actually says it was 85 days in length with about 65 working days in that time period) but he had a lifetime to make it up, Jospeh Smith was known for his 'tall tales' even when he was a child (his mothers diaries give really good accounts of this).

There were also the time gap he had in-between the first 118 pages that Martin Harris lost, this was in 1828 (specifically 12th April to 14th June), he stopped translating after that, he did translate a few pages with his wife Emma as scribe in in March 1829 then starting translating again with Oliver Cowdry as his scribe on the 7th April 1829 and was completed by 30th June.

Giving him plenty of time to make it up. And the 3 witnesses claim they saw what they saw with 'spiritual eyes' meaning visions - not a physical witness of anything. And the 8 witnesses who claim they hefted the plates, the plates were covered up, they never actually saw them, they could have been anything.

 

[He is the way]

He may have dictated it in 65 working days (not 65 days straight, LDS.org actually says it was 85 days in length with about 65 working days in that time period) but he had a lifetime to make it up, Jospeh Smith was known for his 'tall tales' even when he was a child (his mothers diaries give really good accounts of this).

There were also the time gap he had in-between the first 118 pages that Martin Harris lost, this was in 1828 (specifically 12th April to 14th June), he stopped translating after that, he did translate a few pages with his wife Emma as scribe in in March 1829 then starting translating again with Oliver Cowdry as his scribe on the 7th April 1829 and was completed by 30th June.

Giving him plenty of time to make it up. And the 3 witnesses claim they saw what they saw with 'spiritual eyes' meaning visions - not a physical witness of anything. And the 8 witnesses who claim they hefted the plates, the plates were covered up, they never actually saw them, they could have been anything.

You said: "And the 8 witnesses who claim they hefted the plates, the plates were covered up, they never actually saw them, they could have been anything." That is not what they said:
(Book of Mormon | Preface 8 Witnesses:Heading - 1)


THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
PETER WHITMER, JUN.
HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER
SAMUEL H. SMITH

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

You said: "And the 8 witnesses who claim they hefted the plates, the plates were covered up, they never actually saw them, they could have been anything." That is not what they said:
(Book of Mormon | Preface 8 Witnesses:Heading - 1)


THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
PETER WHITMER, JUN.
HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER
SAMUEL H. SMITH

They were all members of two families, Smith and Whitmer and again they didn't see any plates with their physical eyes but with supernatural power! John Whitmer said "I now say I handled those plates. there was fine engravings on both sides. I handled them and they were shown to me by a supernatural power."
Nothing supernatural about a human beings eyes, he didn't see them with his physical eyes. He may have signed that statement in the book of mormon but he said he never saw them with his psychical eyes.

Book of Mormon/Witnesses/Eight witnesses - FairMormon

 

[He is the way]

Omni 1:25

...and believe in prophesying, and in revelations, and in the ministering of angels, and of the gift of speaking with tongues, and in the gift of interpreting languages...

allegedly written between 279 and 130 BC.

Today we have Cessationists and Continuists, regarding speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues, and prophesying. But nowhere else have I ever seen a mention of Tongues BEFORE PENTECOST.

Anachronism.

That does not mean it didn't happen before pentecost, Many things are not mentioned in the Bible.

 

[drstevej]

That does not mean it didn't happen before pentecost, Many things are not mentioned in the Bible.

This is an argument from silence. Anything in the world could be supported by such reasoning. But if that is the best you have we'll let the readers decide.

 

[He is the way]

They were all members of two families, Smith and Whitmer and again they didn't see any plates with their physical eyes but with supernatural power! John Whitmer said "I now say I handled those plates. there was fine engravings on both sides. I handled them and they were shown to me by a supernatural power."
Nothing supernatural about a human beings eyes, he didn't see them with his physical eyes. He may have signed that statement in the book of mormon but he said he never saw them with his psychical eyes.

Book of Mormon/Witnesses/Eight witnesses - FairMormon

"Critics of the Church attempt to dismiss the experience of the Eight Witnesses by claiming that their view of the plates was not literal. The critics attempt to argue that the witnesses only 'saw' the plates in a spiritual state, and then were allowed to heft a covered box. This flatly contradicts their own reports, and those of others.[5] Richard Anderson has collected eight accounts of John Whitmer's that confirm the reality of his handling of the plates.[6] The critics ignore much documentary evidence in John Whitmer's case alone, simply because his witness is inconvenient for their speculations." From the article you quoted.

 

[ripple the car]

I was given a copy of the BoM by some missionary girls. Right where it says that Nephi had availed himself of the "learning of the Egyptians", I knew the whole thing was a fake.

For the Hebrews, the learning of the Egyptians would have included magic, sorcery, superstition, embalming methods, ritual chants related to their deities, astrology, architecture syles they slaved away building, a foreign language wielded by their oppressors, a foreign writing system rife with pagan pictographs directly tied into their worship system, and pretty much every single thing that God told them to cast off from themselves as they were leaving Egypt physically, emotionally, and culturally, and being given the Law. In Hebrew. By God. The God of Israel.

This makes even less sense when you consider the linguistic, cultural, ethnic, historical, religious, political, and social differences between Egypt and Canaan. It would be like a 16th Century Ukrainian merchant availing himself of "the wisdom of the Persians".

 

[He is the way]

I was given a copy of the BoM by some missionary girls. Right where it says that Lehi had availed himself of the "learning of the Egyptians", I knew the whole thing was a fake.

For the Hebrews, the learning of the Egyptians would have included magic, sorcery, superstition, embalming methods, ritual chants related to their deities, astrology, architecture syles they slaved away building, a foreign language wielded by their oppressors, a foreign writing system rife with pagan pictographs directly tied into their worship system, and pretty much every single thing that God told them to cast off from themselves as they were leaving Egypt physically, emotionally, and culturally, and being given the Law. In Hebrew. By God. The God of Israel.

This makes even less sense when you consider the linguistic, cultural, ethnic, historical, religious, political, and social differences between Egypt and Canaan. It would be like a 16th Century Ukrainian merchant availing himself of "the wisdom of the Persians".

Here is the actual scripture:
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 1:2)

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.